Hey all,

So I'm having one of those mornings where you look in the mirror and want to cry at the reflection.  I'm picking apart all of my flaws and it's just driving me insane.  However, rather than simply sit here crying and wallowing in misery/self hatred, I kind of wanted to reach out and hopefully get some inspiration or hope.  Therefore, for those of you who have fully transitioned (whatever that may mean to you) did you first go through an andro stage?  A point in your transition where you where almost genderless and ambigious in your appearance? Did it remain well into your transition? Did you ever get out of that stage and achieve your goals to pass without any possible issues?  And how long did it take for you to get there on hrt?  And was there anything else that helped? 

I'm sorry.  I realize my threads have a common theme and probably have simple answers, but I think about this stuff everyday and rather than sit here and cry, I'd like to get some hope that will allow me to cope.  I have major dysphoria and body issues and can't take it at times.  Knowing these things are just a phase puts me in a better mind frame.  At least knowing this was true for others and hearing they also went through this can help me cope today.  Thanks. 

I have lived most of my life as an ugly duckling. 

Awkward transitioning is actually an improvement. 

This phase lasted 2-3 months for me. But considering I transitioned in the late 20ies I got very lucky genetic wise.

I avoided it by going full time immediately. I have never made a better call in my life. I considered how I would feel being in the awkward stage and knew it would have been detrimental to my transition with second thoughts and such. Going full time right off the mark makes you immerse yourself in your new life and makes it where you don't see a lack of progress. It also occupies your mind and doesn't let it drift through self doubt. I have gotten so used to seeing the woman in the mirror that NOT to present causes problems for me. I used every tool in the arsenal (wigs, breast forms, etc.) to make my vision come to life instead of waiting for my body to catch up. As it does I can drop some of the trappings and still feel good about what I see in the mirror. 

I was in that stage for a few months. It was definitely hard somedays. I ended up going full time when I realized that I was being gendered a mix of male and female throughout the day. At that point I threw on a bra, tight fitting shirt, and some make up and haven't looked back.

I never was able to see myself as androgynous or female in the mirror, but I took my cue that it was time from strangers. Honestly, I still don't see it in the mirror most days and I pass 100% of the time. Well at least no one ever openly clocks me.

hmmm... body image and self-perception is really difficult though. Sometimes I still swear I look like a boy and people act like I'm crazy. I never noticed myself changing much though.

Yep... definitely went through it.

For about the first 10 months, I was being gendered nothing but male. It drove me INSANE. One day I started thinking that maybe I was starting to look reasonably female-ish in the mirror, and figured that maybe if I dressed more androgynously I might be able to squeeze a "she" out of someone on a fluke. I still didn't. People maybe started avoiding pronouns a bit, because they weren't as sure of what my gender was, but it still took another month and a half after that before I FINALLY got my first "she." And for the next three months after that, it was a constant mixture of male and female pronouns.

During this between stage, I was getting called "she" and "he" with nearly the same degree of certainty from various people. I was getting stared at in the men's room, but still wasn't passing consistently enough to use the women's room. And I was too scared to wear blatantly-female clothes because I was so afraid that people were going to look at me, and be one of the people who was gendering me male, and see me as a freak. And these fears weren't unfounded. The first time I wore a blatantly-female sweater in public without my wig on, an elderly gentleman came up to me, sneered, and said "if my kids dressed like that, I'd smack them." It took a LONG time, going through like 10 different presentations, and three months of wondering if I should go full-time or not, wanting to but being too scared because I still wasn't consistently seeing a girl in the mirror, before I finally started slowly emerging from the other side.

Finally what pushed me over the edge was getting fired from my job. I realized that whether I was ready or not, I couldn't put up with hiding anymore, and couldn't start yet another job still in hiding, still feeling like my true self was going unrecognized. So I went full-time. And you know what? I'm still kind of in that androgynous stage. I've crossed over from just pure androgynous to more feminine androgynous, but I'm still a long way from reaching the point where my gender is just incidental again. And it still bothers me. Every single morning I wake up and look in the mirror and see someone that is neither blatantly female nor blatantly male. And I have to put on my earrings, and blatantly-female clothes, in order to be able to see a girl. And yes, it really does bother me. I hate feeling like I'm wearing a mask, and feeling like I'm not really a girl yet, I'm just someone who dresses as one. But it reached a point where I just couldn't wait anymore, whether I was ready or not.

It does get better. It just takes a while, and you have to keep moving forward and trying new things if you really want to find a presentation that works.

And as horrible as this sounds, I really don't still believe that I'm passing most of the time. It's only because I keep going out there, and keep hearing female pronouns, that I believe it. So as much as it hurts when you don't pass, (trust me, I know,) the only way to know for sure is to keep going out there, and see how people treat you. That's really the key to getting through this, is to just try your best to live your life and not let fear keep you completely paralyzed.

Briefly - a couple months, and then I started being startled by male fail at the oddest times. But yes, in terms of hope, HRT worked wonders and I have no trouble whatsoever blending in as a woman now. I also think the andro phase was shortened for me by having done a lot of voice work pre-HRT; it's hard to judge since the majority of genderings took place after I opened my mouth, you know? Odds are at least some people took me for ambiguous until that moment when I talked for at least a few months longer. As others have said, it does also help to be dressed/presenting female, as scary and hard as that is at first; people add up all the cues and make a snap decision that way.

*hugs*

Yeah I am still in that in between androgynous phase when I go out in boy mode. It is weird because no one uses pronouns with me and I hear little kids ask is that a boy or a girl.  Once in a while I will get called lady, if I am with another girl in boy mode or miss, in boy mode. In my opinion I look androgynous even in girl mode, but if I wear highly gendered stuff clothes I can get put into one column or the other. The thing is girl clothes are more gender than male clothes so it is easier to look more blatantly female than male. It is weird though that I am still in this andro phase at over three years hrt. Maybe if I get ffs I will pass as a girl even in boy mode.

I had my "guyliner" stage. 

One of the things that put my dysphoria onto center stage was when my wife thought I'd look like a sexy andro rocker with a bit of eyeliner to make my eyes pop.   When I saw my reflection, I just about died.   I saw the "real me" for the first time and realized that I was kidding myself about being a guy.  What I saw was a glimpse the sad, angry, desperate woman that I tried to keep a stranglehold on.  I didn't want to have to be a transsexual, not even remotely, so I exhausted all other options before I could accept that.  And I mean ALL options, which put me in the hospital twice.

I tried to make it work as androgynous/bigender for a few months before the estrogen took over and I realized I wasn't even remotely male to begin with.  I almost always wore a bit if eyeliner when I went out.  The last time I tried presenting andro/male in public was in March, 2012.  By then, I was so much more natural presenting female that I felt ridiculous as a guy.  The tits were about to be a dead giveaway anyway.

Thanks everyone.  I really do appreciate your thoughts and it has done some good.  Although, I must play my constant role as the devil's advocate, so forgive me.

Quote from: JamesG on April 16, 2014, 07:37:08 AM
I have lived most of my life as an ugly duckling. 

Awkward transitioning is actually an improvement. 

Well, I feel the same way.  It's just that transitioning brings up a lot of feelings.  The more I get into it, the more I see the hardships are easier to overcome than what I originally thought.  Much of what my family warned me of is coming to light and it's hard.  Though I don't regret this.  It's sort of my only choice.

Quote from: Seyranna on April 16, 2014, 07:43:23 AM
This phase lasted 2-3 months for me. But considering I transitioned in the late 20ies I got very lucky genetic wise.

See, I started transitioning at 24 and am currently 25.  Yes I see changes, but it's so freaking so and I have some many uncertainties.  I sort of wish I could have left this phase quickly.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 16, 2014, 07:58:37 AM
I avoided it by going full time immediately. I have never made a better call in my life. I considered how I would feel being in the awkward stage and knew it would have been detrimental to my transition with second thoughts and such. Going full time right off the mark makes you immerse yourself in your new life and makes it where you don't see a lack of progress. It also occupies your mind and doesn't let it drift through self doubt. I have gotten so used to seeing the woman in the mirror that NOT to present causes problems for me. I used every tool in the arsenal (wigs, breast forms, etc.) to make my vision come to life instead of waiting for my body to catch up. As it does I can drop some of the trappings and still feel good about what I see in the mirror. 

Here's the thing though.  Even if I try really hard and go full time, it won't change the fact that I'm andro.  While I'm sure that I could pass for the most part at this point should I give the needed effort, I want to get into a phase where effort isn't required.  Where it's impossible to view me as male and everyone sees me as my respective gender.  At this point in time, I'm no where near close to that even if I can pass to some degree.  That's why I hate this andro mode.  It's like this in between stage where you are neither one category or another.  you just stand out.

Quote from: Alexis Paige on April 16, 2014, 10:57:18 AM
I was in that stage for a few months. It was definitely hard somedays. I ended up going full time when I realized that I was being gendered a mix of male and female throughout the day. At that point I threw on a bra, tight fitting shirt, and some make up and haven't looked back.

I never was able to see myself as androgynous or female in the mirror, but I took my cue that it was time from strangers. Honestly, I still don't see it in the mirror most days and I pass 100% of the time. Well at least no one ever openly clocks me.

Quote from: sad panda on April 16, 2014, 10:59:35 AM
hmmm... body image and self-perception is really difficult though. Sometimes I still swear I look like a boy and people act like I'm crazy. I never noticed myself changing much though.

Yeah, self perception is a pain.  I openly acknowledge that I probably see myself in a much worse lght than what others do.  But then again, I know some overly confident transwomen that are convinced no one knows yet that really isn't the case.  It can bite you in both ways.  That's why I'm vigilant at making sure I see everything wrong with me because at least I'll be aware of it and can work on improving it.   I just don't want to get made fun of and laughed at.  I don't want people to hate me.  I just want to blend in and that's really not possible at this point; therefore I strive to get there in other people's eyes.  I'll probably never like how I look or se myself in an accurate way, but I will have to live with it as I don't see that changing.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 16, 2014, 11:24:25 AM
Yep... definitely went through it.

For about the first 10 months, I was being gendered nothing but male. It drove me INSANE. One day I started thinking that maybe I was starting to look reasonably female-ish in the mirror, and figured that maybe if I dressed more androgynously I might be able to squeeze a "she" out of someone on a fluke. I still didn't. People maybe started avoiding pronouns a bit, because they weren't as sure of what my gender was, but it still took another month and a half after that before I FINALLY got my first "she." And for the next three months after that, it was a constant mixture of male and female pronouns.

During this between stage, I was getting called "she" and "he" with nearly the same degree of certainty from various people. I was getting stared at in the men's room, but still wasn't passing consistently enough to use the women's room. And I was too scared to wear blatantly-female clothes because I was so afraid that people were going to look at me, and be one of the people who was gendering me male, and see me as a freak. And these fears weren't unfounded. The first time I wore a blatantly-female sweater in public without my wig on, an elderly gentleman came up to me, sneered, and said "if my kids dressed like that, I'd smack them." It took a LONG time, going through like 10 different presentations, and three months of wondering if I should go full-time or not, wanting to but being too scared because I still wasn't consistently seeing a girl in the mirror, before I finally started slowly emerging from the other side.

Finally what pushed me over the edge was getting fired from my job. I realized that whether I was ready or not, I couldn't put up with hiding anymore, and couldn't start yet another job still in hiding, still feeling like my true self was going unrecognized. So I went full-time. And you know what? I'm still kind of in that androgynous stage. I've crossed over from just pure androgynous to more feminine androgynous, but I'm still a long way from reaching the point where my gender is just incidental again. And it still bothers me. Every single morning I wake up and look in the mirror and see someone that is neither blatantly female nor blatantly male. And I have to put on my earrings, and blatantly-female clothes, in order to be able to see a girl. And yes, it really does bother me. I hate feeling like I'm wearing a mask, and feeling like I'm not really a girl yet, I'm just someone who dresses as one. But it reached a point where I just couldn't wait anymore, whether I was ready or not.

It does get better. It just takes a while, and you have to keep moving forward and trying new things if you really want to find a presentation that works.

And as horrible as this sounds, I really don't still believe that I'm passing most of the time. It's only because I keep going out there, and keep hearing female pronouns, that I believe it. So as much as it hurts when you don't pass, (trust me, I know,) the only way to know for sure is to keep going out there, and see how people treat you. That's really the key to getting through this, is to just try your best to live your life and not let fear keep you completely paralyzed.

Thanks Carrie.  We think alike in a lot of ways, so it makes me feel glad to know you were able to find some sort of compromise with these feelings.  It gives me some hope.  But I really don't know.  Like today I went shopping and I looked at the girl ringing me up.  She was just a girl.  She didn't need to think and plan everything ahead.  She was just her.  That's what I want.  I don't want to feel like I have to put on a costume for other people.  I just want to be myself all the time and have my appearance match my identity at all times.  It feels like we require so much work to be ourselves when it's such a simple concept for everyone else. 

Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 16, 2014, 11:35:28 AM
Briefly - a couple months, and then I started being startled by male fail at the oddest times. But yes, in terms of hope, HRT worked wonders and I have no trouble whatsoever blending in as a woman now. I also think the andro phase was shortened for me by having done a lot of voice work pre-HRT; it's hard to judge since the majority of genderings took place after I opened my mouth, you know? Odds are at least some people took me for ambiguous until that moment when I talked for at least a few months longer. As others have said, it does also help to be dressed/presenting female, as scary and hard as that is at first; people add up all the cues and make a snap decision that way.

*hugs*

Thanks.  I've been working on my voice, though it's my biggest issue.  It's an important reminder and good lesson to keep voice training as a priority.  Even the most convincing trans women will be outed in a second from their voice if it isn't dealt with.

Quote from: HoneyBunny on April 16, 2014, 11:42:28 AM
Yeah I am still in that in between androgynous phase when I go out in boy mode. It is weird because no one uses pronouns with me and I hear little kids ask is that a boy or a girl.  Once in a while I will get called lady, if I am with another girl in boy mode or miss, in boy mode. In my opinion I look androgynous even in girl mode, but if I wear highly gendered stuff clothes I can get put into one column or the other. The thing is girl clothes are more gender than male clothes so it is easier to look more blatantly female than male. It is weird though that I am still in this andro phase at over three years hrt. Maybe if I get ffs I will pass as a girl even in boy mode.

Sorry to hear you are in a similar boat.  Though you make a good point that presentation can really make a differece.  I agree with that, though I want to be myself and look as that without even thinking about my presentation.

By the way, I love your avatar.  It always makes me laugh.

Quote from: Jill F on April 16, 2014, 02:37:57 PM
I had my "guyliner" stage. 

One of the things that put my dysphoria onto center stage was when my wife thought I'd look like a sexy andro rocker with a bit of eyeliner to make my eyes pop.   When I saw my reflection, I just about died.   I saw the "real me" for the first time and realized that I was kidding myself about being a guy.  What I saw was a glimpse the sad, angry, desperate woman that I tried to keep a stranglehold on.  I didn't want to have to be a transsexual, not even remotely, so I exhausted all other options before I could accept that.  And I mean ALL options, which put me in the hospital twice.

I tried to make it work as androgynous/bigender for a few months before the estrogen took over and I realized I wasn't even remotely male to begin with.  I almost always wore a bit if eyeliner when I went out.  The last time I tried presenting andro/male in public was in March, 2012.  By then, I was so much more natural presenting female that I felt ridiculous as a guy.  The tits were about to be a dead giveaway anyway.

Yeah, I always feel weird about my chest.  People do notice and sometimes stare at it.  That's one of the reasons being andro sucks because you can't pass as either and yet it's obvious something is going on.  I try to wear insanely baggy clothes while I'm still waiting to go fulltime, though even then it's noticeable.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 16, 2014, 07:42:03 PM
  While I'm sure that I could pass for the most part at this point should I give the needed effort, I want to get into a phase where effort isn't required.  Where it's impossible to view me as male and everyone sees me as my respective gender.

LTL it will always take effort and there are ALWAYS people who will question. Even cis girls get read by the public. You have to be realistic and come to understand everyone has something that makes people guess. Some things are very small of course, but who are you trying to please you or everyone else. I will always get clocked, but the only difference between you and I is I don't care. I am living for me and that is where you need to get. I understand you wanting to appear totally female, I really get it, but by what scale are you using to go by? Are your goals realistic or something no one could meet. I fully support you and always will, but to me the only thing you are lacking is confidence. Once you get it you will wonder why you ever obsessed over others views of you. You will never please everyone and that is a fact. Stop looking in the mirror on the wall and look at the one in your heart. The rest will follow I promise.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 16, 2014, 07:54:40 PM
LTL it will always take effort and there are ALWAYS people who will question. Even cis girls get read by the public. You have to be realistic and come to understand everyone has something that makes people guess. Some things are very small of course, but who are you trying to please you or everyone else. I will always get clocked, but the only difference between you and I is I don't care. I am living for me and that is where you need to get. I understand you wanting to appear totally female, I really get it, but by what scale are you using to go by? Are your goals realistic or something no one could meet. I fully support you and always will, but to me the only thing you are lacking is confidence. Once you get it you will wonder why you ever obsessed over others views of you. You will never please everyone and that is a fact. Stop looking in the mirror on the wall and look at the one in your heart. The rest will follow I promise.

I care very deeply about what other people think of me.  Even on this little forum.  I don't know why, but it matters so much to me.  I guess the thing is it really hurts when you let your guard down only to realize how much that defensive structure was needed because what's really behind it is ugly in so many ways (not just appearance wise).   But really I don't know why I care so much about how other's view me.  I try so hard to not upset them or cause them to hate me or laugh at me.  For once, I just want to feel free and happy, but I know realitistically that even that will be tied to other people's perceptions.  I mean I'm really open and candid here, but I care a great deal about what people think of me and that's why I get emotional sometimes when I realize how negative some people see me.  Imagine me letting all my baggage down and walking out the door in the real world as myself without a care in the world about other people.  That's just not me and probably never will be.  I think I need to find a compromise between my need to not offend others in some way and feel free and open with myself.  How that effects my appearance is that I must blend well enough so that no alarms are rung.  That way I can be free to be myself at all times and other people don't need to be offended, angry or think poorly of me.  Is that a healthy compromise?  Probably not.  I just know no otherway around it.  I know myself and don't think I'll change even though I'm trying. 

I so wish you were here in Oklahoma girl. I would take you out and let you see it is not as bad out there as you think. It really isn't.  people are much to wrapped up with their own issue's to care most of the time. I like you so much if you are in one of our bordering states I would do the same by getting you out and about. I so hate to see you locked in the prison of your mind and know in my heart it could be so different for you. Is there anything I can do for you?

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 16, 2014, 08:16:54 PM
I so wish you were here in Oklahoma girl. I would take you out and let you see it is not as bad out there as you think. It really isn't.  people are much to wrapped up with their own issue's to care most of the time. I like you so much if you are in one of our bordering states I would do the same by getting you out and about. I so hate to see you locked in the prison of your mind and know in my heart it could be so different for you. Is there anything I can do for you?

I'm sorry please understand I mean no harm to anyone, but I totally agree with Jessica that you have trapped your self in a prison that from my  point of view you will never escape unless you just  jump in the water and get use to it.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 16, 2014, 08:09:24 PM
I care very deeply about what other people think of me.  Even on this little forum.  I don't know why, but it matters so much to me.  I guess the thing is it really hurts when you let your guard down only to realize how much that defensive structure was needed because what's really behind it is ugly in so many ways (not just appearance wise).   But really I don't know why I care so much about how other's view me.  I try so hard to not upset them or cause them to hate me or laugh at me.  For once, I just want to feel free and happy, but I know realitistically that even that will be tied to other people's perceptions.  I mean I'm really open and candid here, but I care a great deal about what people think of me and that's why I get emotional sometimes when I realize how negative some people see me.  Imagine me letting all my baggage down and walking out the door in the real world as myself without a care in the world about other people.  That's just not me and probably never will be.  I think I need to find a compromise between my need to not offend others in some way and feel free and open with myself.  How that effects my appearance is that I must blend well enough so that no alarms are rung.  That way I can be free to be myself at all times and other people don't need to be offended, angry or think poorly of me.  Is that a healthy compromise?  Probably not.  I just know no otherway around it.  I know myself and don't think I'll change even though I'm trying.

Well here's another in a similar boat.  Right now the big deal for me is to just feel, and to be a little different.  I don't feel either boy or girl now, not in terms of emotional gender.  But even with the nails I still get read as birth gender.  Small boobs help that a bit.

But the girl in the mirror is kind of funny looking right now mid transition.  But a lot of progress.

People pleasing and fear stink.  And I sure know how you feel about the board members, because I feel the same way.  What they think matters to me A LOT.

The more experienced girls will help.  I am taking this andro stage as a giant positive step to be nurtured, valued, and cared for.  I smile when I see the subtle changes and know that I actually had the guts to finally do something to feel better.

It's alright to go andro for a little while, but LTL please do some experimenting and add a few more feminine things to your daily wardrobe and match up things that add color.  Yes, do the andro thing as long as you move a little forward each time you buy something.

I went from shaving off a heavy long beard to full time in five months, but spent the prior six months on HRT while hiding behind the beard.  After shaving and finding a few tops and jeans that looked pretty good on me I began to shop the clearance racks to increase the number of colorful tops and shorts I had.  But even during that stage I'd go out once or twice a week dressed in my casual women's shorts or slacks, a tank, and nice half-buttoned shirt to cover up.  My true 100% andro period only lasted about six to eight weeks because I was buying things that I figured I could wear full time someday, and I'd find ways to wear them when I could.  But the day to go full time finally showed up after about 3 months of switching around just to satisfy people and situations.  It brought complete freedom.

Understand who you are, and wear what you want.  It's your life and you have to live it, so do it the way that makes you feel best. 

Hugs

LTL, you say you want to get to a point where effort is not required.

That is an admirable and obtainable goal.

The thing is, effort IS required when you start coming out of your shell. It takes effort to learn what looks good on you. It takes effort to learn makeup tricks. It takes effort to learn to be a woman.

Disclaimer, I know I just said, "Learn to be a woman" and yeah, I know most of us are women in here... I mean it differently than it may seem at first glance. Not all cis females are seen as women. Many are seen as little girls or developing teenagers, especially actual little girls and developing teenagers. It isn't just hormones and genetics, cis women had to learn to become women too. It takes effort.

After spending the vast majority of time out in public as myself this last month, I have noticed that female peeking through more and more, even when I am in drab making no effort. My vocal inflections are softer, my posture is different, my gestures and mannerisms have evolved. My reflection, when I catch it out of the corner of my eye in a window, is full of femininity. And I am talking about times when I am not even consciously trying. The effort pays off faster than I can believe. It becomes subconscious. It becomes second nature. It becomes me.

It is happening because I am working on it, not because I am beautiful, not because I have a perfect hourglass, I am far less passable externally than you, but just when I can't feel any more female on the inside I am surprised with another new feminine gift.

I surprised myself on Monday, when I went to see some friends in a drag show, and one of them, a drag comedian, who knows I am an actor asked why I never get up on stage and do something for the show. Without missing a beat I said, "Because I am not an impersonator."

It takes effort to make being a woman effortless.

Believe me, I know I'm a totally messed up cookie.  I do need major work on my self image.  However, there is more to it all than confidence.  You could be confident that no one will think you are wearing a red shirt, but you would be wrong if you are wearing one.  Confidence is a way to influence reality, but not change it.  While I need work in this department, it's not everything.

With this particular thread, I was really looking to hear from those that started out believing they would never pass and found themselves pleasantly surprised in time.  I want to make it there, but I don't feel I'm at that point in it's entirety.  While I realizing passing 100 percent isn't possible, I want to be as close to that as possible.  It allows me to continue hiding and not worrying about how others view me when I let my guard down.  That is a huge problem of mine and I doubt it will ever change. 

Kia Ora,

The androgynous stage can be like childhood and it happens only once (unless one chooses to remain androgynous that is)...so enjoy what it brings-make the most of it...You can have some real fun with it...

I have some fond memories of my androgynous experience...The confused look on people's faces, not sure if I was a Arthur or Martha...

Metta Anatta