I'm struggling with this sometimes participating in the trans community... I feel like trans people are very good at being polite, accurate and correct about pronouns and labels, but at the same time, the way we treat each other doesn't always change, and can sometimes be oddly different than we would treat someone cis of that gender.

So why does this happen? Is it that some vibes just stick with a trans person from assigned gender to reassigned?

Is it a problem? Or just the reality that nobody can avoid? That mostly the genders are a dichotomy of masculine males and feminine females thatt rans people blur a lot more than cis people?

But then, is it just that? Nobody generally has any problem thinking of feminine males as men if they are known to be cis. Or masculine females as women. when I say thinking of, I mean thinking of them in categorically the same way as other cis members of that gender btw. It's about the associations that come up i guess.

So, what does everyone think? Are there basically gender leftovers, and is that ok? Is there anything that can be done about it? Is just getting the pronouns and the labels right enough? Or is this not a problem?

I know this is a sort of difficult topic, so please everyone be nice and respectful! I just want to discuss it, it's not my goal for anyone to argue or get upset here. Thank you.

Internalized trans-misogyny/transphobia.

I'll be honest, the only time this tends to be a personal issue for me is when someone is in the beginning phases.  Like a early mtf or ftm transitioner who still looks and lives as their assigned sex.  That doesn't mean they are different, but the visual can throw me off and make it harder for me even though I know better and work to overcome it.  However, I really don't see those who have gone through everything as different than cis.  In some ways there are differences, but not enough for me to treat people different or even see them in an alternative way.  Sometimes that does happen, though, and honestly most of that depends on how one carries themselves as a person.  I react to personalities/individual people more than I do gender for the most part. 

People are still people.  They carry the same baggage and bull->-bleeped-<- as everyone else.

I'll try to nip this one in the bud as to my opinion... People are people... No matter their age, gender, sexual preference, or the color of their skin for that matter. We all come in different shapes, sizes, and we all have our personal set of attributes and dysfunctions as well. If I know another person is trans* it is no big deal to me and I try to use the pronoun they are comfortable with. They are really no different from the rest of the bozos on this bus ride we call life. Me included... My theory... You get what you give and really don't have a right to label anyone because you haven't walked in their shoes.

So a short answer to your question would be yes I treat everyone equal. Some people I like, some I don't, but I try to treat people with respect unless they disrespect me. Also I have always given people the benefit of the doubt. Comes down to that saying. "Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me..."

Just my opinion here, and this is no insult to you at all as we all have these questions. You are very much in the process of finding yourself at this point which is a good thing, however you may be over-analyzing the whole issue. Over the last few weeks I have watched you grow to know the real you. Your scared, as you should be, as no one in their right mind wouldn't be, but you have taken steps to find the true you. You also have been questioning yourself which we all also have done at one point or the other. Then top it off with all the other stuff you have been dealing with, you have had a pretty bumpy ride these last few weeks. I for one truly feel your pain and anguish. Accepting ones self as we really are is perhaps the hardest thing we will ever do. I for one am very proud of how I have seen you grow to know yourself and you should be too.

Well, I hope this isn't insulting, but I think I see trans women a little differently. I feel safer around them. Some of it is a general perception - somehow I think they get me better. Some of it is also probably that I feel safer being myself and talking more natural. I always felt like I had to watch everything I said around cis women. And there does seem to be some truth to this. (though sometimes I can take this a bit too far and say the wrong thing obviously)

It doesn't have much to do with the individual trans woman - she could be more feminine than most cis women and I would still feel a little safer around her. Like she's not going to hurt me. Though this perception would probably not be there if I don't know she's trans. So, it's more just my perception than it is anything to do with trans women.

This site was a godsend to me for much more than trans stuff. I found women I could talk to, make friends with. I guess if someone who was hurt by cis men saw me as someone they could open up to because of my past, that wouldn't bother me too much.


As to the other part, I was kind of worried that by talking so much about women's issues and mentioning I used to be pretty and have big tits - that people might start to see me differently. As less male or something. So I didn't mention my tits until now - which they were a huge part of my life as a female. Because nobody ever shut up about them. No matter what I was wearing. When I first came here, it was important to have this space where I was seen as male. Now that I actually live as male, it doesn't matter as much. Most people just assumed I had always been some fat, masculine looking butch woman. And I preferred that perception to the awful truth. Though I was masculine (and it was actually kinda comical) and wore men's clothes most the time. It didn't help much. I didn't have that great of a body - really not very feminine minus the tits. But that's all anyone ever saw or cared about - face and tits.

I *try* really hard not to be prejudiced by I've had a ton of social problems interacting socially with other trans women. The three issues I've had are either stuff around jealousy or feeling like a trophy friend or getting hit on when it's clear I'm not interested. It sucks because I really want to have more trans friends, but the combination of my appearance and personality poses challenges.

Over the years I've tried really hard to modify my personality / be less stuck up, etc., but it hasn't helped that much. I have a ton of friends but very few of them are trans. And it sucks.

Quote from: FA on April 16, 2014, 08:09:31 AM
Well, I hope this isn't insulting, but I think I see trans women a little differently. I feel safer around them. Some of it is a general perception - somehow I think they get me better. Some of it is also probably that I feel safer being myself and talking more natural. I always felt like I had to watch everything I said around cis women. And there does seem to be some truth to this. (though sometimes I can take this a bit too far and say the wrong thing obviously)

Actually FA you bring up a good point here. I know in my case I can actually let my guard down a little with other trans people, as I know they have had some or many of the same feeling I do. I do tend to be more open with them... But do I treat them any different then anyone else still would be a no I don't... As to your last comment, I have also stuck my foot in my mouth a few times as well, so don't sweat the small stuff... LOL

I'm very new to the community, and I haven't been around many trans people IRL, but based on discussions here, I see the transwomen here as just as feminine as cis women (depending on the user, but generally speaking), but there IS a difference, and that difference is that they are trans. Not in a negative way, in fact, personally, it simply means they understand Gender Dysphoria, whereas most cis women would not, so for me it helps me connect more with them (speaking generally here).

In terms of the transmen here, y'all mostly sound like the men I spent my life trying to fit in with (and failing ), so I don't see you as any less male than cismen (again, generally). I agree, sometimes the photos can throw off your image of people based on how they talk (esp. during early transition) but all I see in pre-transition people is the same thing I see in the mirror myself, a past full of pain and, just maybe, a tomorrow worth living. Knowing who you all are inside, regardless of your outer appearance, I don't think I could see you as anything but what you identify as. I often glance at the little gender icon after reading somebody's message and think Oh, that makes sense.  Maybe that makes my mind too used to the gender binary, but like I said, I am new to the community and identify wholly as the gender I was not born as, so I'm still trying to empathise with those who are on different parts of the gender spectrum (or don't identify as either). 

Until I came to grips with my own gender Identity, the visual stuff was what I saw.  If you were "trans-obvious" I was polite, but not engaged.  Early in transition I tried to be invisible, for example I periodically hung out here without posting anything for a year, and really didn't engage with real people very much.  It wasn't until a lot of therapy, and a fair amount of time that I began to know, and interact with trans folks regularly and in person.  My experience is that familiarity brings ease.  I don't much care if you look fem, butch, male, or female, from me you'll hear gender neutral pronouns until I know what you would like, and be treated as gender irrelevant until I know how you want to be treated.  Hopefully that happens pretty quickly.  If you are a woman, cis trans or otherwise you are a girl and I try pretty hard to see and relate to you that way.  If you are a man, I will relate and treat you as a woman does a man.

My observation is that this is pretty normal.  We become what we experience, and over time the tells become less important and the person becomes a friend.

Julie

Quote from: Veronica M on April 16, 2014, 07:45:48 AM
I'll try to nip this one in the bud as to my opinion... People are people... No matter their age, gender, sexual preference, or the color of their skin for that matter. We all come in different shapes, sizes, and we all have our personal set of attributes and dysfunctions as well. If I know another person is trans* it is no big deal to me and I try to use the pronoun they are comfortable with. They are really no different from the rest of the bozos on this bus ride we call life. Me included... My theory... You get what you give and really don't have a right to label anyone because you haven't walked in their shoes.

So a short answer to your question would be yes I treat everyone equal. Some people I like, some I don't, but I try to treat people with respect unless they disrespect me. Also I have always given people the benefit of the doubt. Comes down to that saying. "Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me..."

Just my opinion here, and this is no insult to you at all as we all have these questions. You are very much in the process of finding yourself at this point which is a good thing, however you may be over-analyzing the whole issue. Over the last few weeks I have watched you grow to know the real you. Your scared, as you should be, as no one in their right mind wouldn't be, but you have taken steps to find the true you. You also have been questioning yourself which we all also have done at one point or the other. Then top it off with all the other stuff you have been dealing with, you have had a pretty bumpy ride these last few weeks. I for one truly feel your pain and anguish. Accepting ones self as we really are is perhaps the hardest thing we will ever do. I for one am very proud of how I have seen you grow to know yourself and you should be too.

Aww, thank you Veronica. Don't worry though, this thread is not exactly personal. Just wanted to see how people feel about this.

I think it's great to treat everyone equal, regardless of gender, but there are some things that we can't treat as the same right? For example, sexuality... you will be attracted to some people, not to others, and that's never wrong, I mean feelings just exist, but is the line between what we call someone and how we feel about them in a different place? And what does that mean about us, and about gender even? like, I was hinking recently of how there are some MTFs who will date FTMs happily but not really cis men. Or female SOs who still consider themselves straight while daiting a trans woman, which all seems strange to me.

Quote from: FA on April 16, 2014, 08:09:31 AM
Well, I hope this isn't insulting, but I think I see trans women a little differently. I feel safer around them. Some of it is a general perception - somehow I think they get me better. Some of it is also probably that I feel safer being myself and talking more natural. I always felt like I had to watch everything I said around cis women. And there does seem to be some truth to this. (though sometimes I can take this a bit too far and say the wrong thing obviously)

It doesn't have much to do with the individual trans woman - she could be more feminine than most cis women and I would still feel a little safer around her. Like she's not going to hurt me. Though this perception would probably not be there if I don't know she's trans. So, it's more just my perception than it is anything to do with trans women.

This site was a godsend to me for much more than trans stuff. I found women I could talk to, make friends with. I guess if someone who was hurt by cis men saw me as someone they could open up to because of my past, that wouldn't bother me too much.


As to the other part, I was kind of worried that by talking so much about women's issues and mentioning I used to be pretty and have big tits - that people might start to see me differently. As less male or something. So I didn't mention my tits until now - which they were a huge part of my life as a female. Because nobody ever shut up about them. No matter what I was wearing. When I first came here, it was important to have this space where I was seen as male. Now that I actually live as male, it doesn't matter as much. Most people just assumed I had always been some fat, masculine looking butch woman. And I preferred that perception to the awful truth. Though I was masculine (and it was actually kinda comical) and wore men's clothes most the time. It didn't help much. I didn't have that great of a body - really not very feminine minus the tits. But that's all anyone ever saw or cared about - face and tits.

Uh-huh. I can see why that would happen, even if it's just a very personal thing. I mean I've felt less on guard around trans women too and I don't know why. Very well could be an understanding that this whole experience creates that makes people less judgmental and more open. Then again, I can be more judgmental too, and that... I'm not happy with myself for that. That is probably my attachment to the issue of being trans, and I need to learn to separate it from other people.

I don't know about anybody else, but having had tits doesn't mean anything at all to me. Hah, I hate the things. Mine included.

Hope you're feeling better today. (:

Quote from: mandonlym on April 16, 2014, 08:10:04 AM
I *try* really hard not to be prejudiced by I've had a ton of social problems interacting socially with other trans women. The three issues I've had are either stuff around jealousy or feeling like a trophy friend or getting hit on when it's clear I'm not interested. It sucks because I really want to have more trans friends, but the combination of my appearance and personality poses challenges.

Over the years I've tried really hard to modify my personality / be less stuck up, etc., but it hasn't helped that much. I have a ton of friends but very few of them are trans. And it sucks.

I've honestly never met any trans people in person in the last few years, so I'm not very familiar with that, I mostly interact with the community online. I can understand having to evaluate your prejudices, and sometimes i think it's really eye opening. Like, wow, why am I having these strong feelings? I didn't think i was a judgmental person at all. Maybe it's just because this issue is so personal.

I think you can't always change how you feel, must staying conscientious matters a lot.

I guess part of me is tired of people constantly dropping hints about these things and but an actual honest conversation not happening. It gets pretty toxic and pretty divisive, but personally I have come to see transition as just an incredibly individual thing. A lot of people can get full of themselves though because of their attachment to being like or not being like other trans people, it's just like, it doesn't really have to matter.

Quote from: sad panda on April 16, 2014, 09:48:15 AM
Aww, thank you Veronica. Don't worry though, this thread is not exactly personal. Just wanted to see how people feel about this.

I think it's great to treat everyone equal, regardless of gender, but there are some things that we can't treat as the same right? For example, sexuality... you will be attracted to some people, not to others, and that's never wrong, I mean feelings just exist, but is the line between what we call someone and how we feel about them in a different place? And what does that mean about us, and about gender even? like, I was hinking recently of how there are some MTFs who will date FTMs happily but not really cis men. Or female SOs who still consider themselves straight while daiting a trans woman, which all seems strange to me.

Same song different dance sweetie... I personally do not judge others for who they want to sleep with.. What I am also beginning to notice especially within the tran* community sexual preference is extremely diverse. Not faulting that mind you, more an observation. Personally I think it kind of cool. As to cis men, there is a vast majority who are silently questioning their sexuality, so unless they are totally comfortable in who they are they most likely would not pursue a transgender relationship... (Male ego thing) Then there are the closet gay men who just want to get laid by someone transgender so he doesn't have to admit to himself he likes guys. That said however there are also men out there that desire a transgender girl and will treat her just like he would a regular cis girl... By the way that holds true from the opposite end of the spectrum as well, just reversed. It's really all just a mixed bag of nuts and that is what makes the world go round. By not judging any of it one can see the beauty of the diversity in itself... Other than that it is up to your personal sexual preference from there.

I prefer to see things in the context of male vs female and femininity vs masculinity, with androgyny being the go between between each. This applies to sex, identity, presentation,roles, and attraction, and it works on a bit of scales and you can put more than one pin in for where you place on each scale. Also, each is susceptible to change over time and on a whim.

This tempers how I view myself and others. I'll use myself as an example. In terms of sex, I'm male with bits of female (hormonally), like all post trans MtFs. But then my identity. It varies. It's predominantly wayy on the female end, thus I'm pursuing transition. Simply because I'm best suited toward being female all around. But then id be lying if there aren't days where my identity is androgynous or feminine maleish..hence, the other pins yay!

My presentation varies. Most of me in terms of appearance at my core, when you strip away everything else, is generally female with hints of androgyny, I suppose, I dunno. I'm naturally female for being MAAB, I suppose.. I'd say on most days I present wholly femininely, but somedays on the feminine/female side of androgynous. My role is essentially 100% female socially, at this point.

Then there's sexuality. Mine is complicated, like everybody, I think. I'm only attracted to people whose sex is male, I must say. So I couldn't even date an FtM tbh. The identity must be either male or androgynous/mixed. Not female. The presentation, I vary a lot! Different types of guys appeal to different sides of me. I like super masculine but also androgynous and feminine..but not so feminine it's female.

See it's all sort of a mix and match deal! so I think that's why terms like 'cis' and 'trans' and 'gay' and 'straight' are so problematic in how we perceive ourselves and others. You can take an MtF right? She can have a totally female identity but if her presentation is male, many will struggle to see a female. Personally, I respect identity, but I may secretly see a person differently depending on the presentation. Sex plays a lesser role in how I perceive others, but for some it might be 100% important, cuz it still matters so it can dictate how someone sees others depending on the context.

That's why I say I dot care what people think. Their perception of me is their business, just like mine of others is my business. As long as we all have mutual respect and rights, not just legally, but in terms of self expression. I say we allow each other to process ourselvex and others both internally and externally however feels best.

I personally treat trans people differently than cis people. I am more willing to let my guard down if I know some one is trans and I know we have more in common than other people. It is kind of like when I talk to other girls, whether or not they are cis or trans, I can be more open to them because we share the same gender. I would not dare talk to guys about certain  things and it is the same way with trans people, but I can relate more to other transwoman than anyone else. However, my ultimate goal is to live life as a normal woman, not a transwoman.

Now that it's been mentioned, I also feel more comfortable letting my guard down around other trans people.  Not so much in real life, but at least online.  I'm shocked that I've been as open and candid about myself on this forum.  It's really not in my character, but then again that might have more to do with me feeling more free and less insecure on a forum. 

However, being trans is really only a small aspect of someone.  It may have shaped and molded them into who they are in some ways, but really people are individuals.  I try to see someone for who they are and not what they are, if that makes sense.  Sometimes though, I do hold preconceived notions about people because of some group affiliations which is something I work really hard on fighting against.

Tough question to answer, but I think it'd be hypocritical to say that we do.

First of all, there's the fact that cispeople don't all get treated the same way. I don't think it's black and white, some males are more respected than others, same goes for females. Without realising it, people are kinder to those they find themselves attracted to or have an empathy with. This transcends the concept of sex/gender in a lot of scenarios.

I don't think you can "treat" someone as a gender, not in our day and age. It just sounds primitive. For example, I hold doors open for people I care about, regardless if they're male or female, I'm protective of people I care about because I like them, not because of some pre-historical notion that they're physically inferior and I'm somehow more powerful and can court who I want to... that's just silly to me.

I think transpeople treat other transpeople better than they would treat someone who's cisgendered. A bit like wanting to help a cripple or someone in a disfavourable situation... You see it when people want to know if they pass or look good, and they're told they're beautiful when sometimes... they're not. I know this sounds cruel but you can't not notice that it happens... I'm glad that it is this way though, that transpeople are kind and supportive towards one another, but I think that it could be detrimental in some cases, if we encourage transpeople to live in a reality that's separate from actual society, where they could face harsh criticism... I think sometimes we should prepare transpeople to face adversities in the real world. Also, we should remind ourselves that cispeople face criticism from the real world aswell and have self-depreciative feelings like us.

But yeah, I think that we do treat transpeople different from cispeople. Furthermore, it's natural to. We adjust our behaviour to make others feel comfortable with us, that's kind of how we're programmed to interact socially with people. You don't curse around your elders, you try to act more responsible, whereas around your friends you're more outgoing... topics of conversation and behavioural patterns also change depending on the subject you're interacting with, so naturally if you see an individual who you know happens to be transgender, you'll want to make him/her feel well around you and use precautions that you normally wouldn't need to have with a cisgender.