Okay, this has come up about zillion times. And it's time to address it. I'm mostly talking about the passing threads in the mtf section. Because this is where the complaints are coming from. And also because there's a difference. Most ftms will pass given enough time on T, but the same is not as true the other direction. Also, the stakes are higher for trans women. Not that trans guys never face violence, but there's more risk for trans women. This doesn't mean the ftm passing threads won't come up for debate too, but for now, please respond for the mtf threads.

Tell me how useful these threads are and whether you think they do more harm than good. Or are just largely not a good idea. The poll is anonymous, so please be honest. You can also post your thoughts here as well if you feel comfortable.

Edit:
Just to be clear - I don't read these threads unless there's a complaint. And don't think I'd be that good a judge of passing anyway. So, this isn't something I know much about. I just hear a lot of complaints about it. And if the passing threads are doing more harm than good, I'm concerned about that. It's not a personal judgment on anybody who's posted pics. I don't read these threads. And really don't care whether someone 'passes' or not.

I admit that I tend to stay away from these unless there's someone who is clearly passable or even very pretty that has serious doubts and needs a fat reality check.  I see it almost everyday where people give words of encouragement to someone who isn't quite ready for primetime, and I have mixed feelings about it.  On one hand, I would hate to tell someone "no f-ing way, babe" and have them end up on a TDOR list.  In the other hand, I would hate to be the one who says "you go, girl" to someone who later gets their ass kicked (or worse).  I don't think I could live with myself.  There are some of us who frankly aren't ever going to look remotely female with or without extensive surgery.

Do I pass?  I don't know.  I don't really care.  I'm not exactly pretty, I'm probably too big, but I'm Jill 24/7 now and that is how it will always be.  I own it, I'm confident about it, I love it, I hate it.  Being trans is like starring in your own f-ing tragedy.  I wouldn't wish it on my own worst enemy. 

I think most people are a little too nice on the passing threads. I try to be as honest as I can when on one of those threads but I try to avoid them. Also I wouldn't necessarily say all ftm's will pass after enough time on t. Don't get me wrong I've seen some pretty hot ftm's on this site and in real life. But I've seen some that look masculine but you can tell they are trans. But that may just be me I have pretty good transdar (yeah I just made that word up)and normally will know before I ever find out they are trans. But I will acknowledge mtf's have it harder in terms of passing and mostly it just comes down to luck and good genes. But whether somebody passes or not I think it is more important to be honest and constructive. Because you ain't doing anybody no favors telling somebody they pass then they go out in the real world and have they're heart broke.   

I'll have to log in from my computer later to vote in the poll, but I don't think the passing thread is a bad thing, just that it needs to be better understood.

Perhaps a poster should ask specifically for positive feedback, negative feedback or both.

Most of the time I am looking for things to improve or things that won't pass that I need to hide. Other times I may just want a confidence booster and look for just complements. I don't think 3 separate threads would be good because there would be too much photo reposting and overlap and people would only comment in one section and therefore omit half of the desired commentary.

I feel that as long as whoever posts understands and communicates what sort of commentary they want, then there should be no issue.

Perhaps instead of a "passing" thread it could be a "progress" thread that includes speculation, observation, and general encouragement.

I know there is another thread "you look fabulous v. Somethingorother" but that seems more of a thread for those who consider themselves passing already.

Anyway that's my 2 cents on the matter.

In my view, I don't think a thread asking and commenting on whether someone does, can, or will pass is useful at all, to be honest. Simply because I don't think any reply, whether too nice or the opposite, can ever really be objective enough to do anything other than make the asker feel either good or bad about themselves. By virtue of it being asked here in the first place. Whoever comments on the question is dealing with their own standards, insecurities and ideas about what passing is, means, or involves. And those get injected into the replies. Whether that being through someone subconsciously thinking what they'd like to hear in that place, or someone passing in their own specific circumstances and applying that as a blanket method of what is required to do so... whatever the case maybe, all the replies are passed through the commenters' own trans filters and so I don't think they're actually as objective as they need to be.

The "Fabulous/Badass" threads are a different thing, and I do think a place for people to show themselves feeling good about themselves, without comment on whether they pass or not, is a good thing. But asking whether one passes, especially on a trans forum, seems counterproductive. The people who will come into contact with you in the wider world won't, by and large, be applying the same filters to your appearance that other trans people do.

I would much prefer to see a more general thread documenting the things people have done in their own lives to help them in life, with regard to passing. One which everyone can take away what they feel benefits them personally, rather than asking for opinions on something that, at best, can only really be subjective.

I don't post in them very often and I'm not critical either. I don't have any problem with them and I'm not sure how you would prevent people from discussing their passingness.

Edited the original post.
This link may also help: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,163281.msg1405030.html#msg1405030

If these threads are harmful, I don't want to leave them up.

I think there is an issue with narcissism in the the threads.

It also prompts  misunderstanding: you have to be beautiful physically to 'pass'.
This is similar to the attitude to teen girls that have to conform to an artificial standard.

Beauty is all?

A woman is a woman. There is no need for justification.

Although some women need it - tongue in cheek- that's what lovers are for

I have seen some "overly" positive responses and also some "overly" negative responses.  I see these threads more as a way to show your picture.  Most of us know up front how we look and how well we pass.

I haven't posted a picture of myself there and would not.

Quote from: FA on April 17, 2014, 01:42:56 PM
Edited the original post.
This link may also help: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,163281.msg1405030.html#msg1405030

If these threads are harmful, I don't want to leave them up.

I don't find them harmful but I don't think people should put much faith in them as to whether they can pass or not.

I check out those topics quite a bit but I won't post a reply in one. I feel I am unqualified to answer that question because I don't know all that much about surgeries and other things yet that could make a big difference.

Also, a personal reason, is that I don't ever wanna be mean to anyone even online, I'm weird like that. A lot of people can and do be asses to others online because they can get away with it and be anonymous about it but I'm not like that. I just imagine that what if that person is having a ->-bleeped-<-ty day and comes online to get away from it, a safe haven, and then gets picked on and insulted, hurt, and then what? I wanna be as honest as possible but in a nice way and I don't wanna do that to anyone so I just avoid commenting on them entirely.

In my personal opinion, I think some people would have a really hard time passing but mostly still get positive comments. Sometimes people will get skipped and feel ignored and I wonder if it is because others don't think they can pass but don't wanna be the ones to say it or something? To the ones who have fabulous transitions I just wanna say this: I hate you all LOL (j/k, its total jealousy thing) 

If we're being honest, it's sisters who don't pass yet you see they carry an inflated sense of their passability expressed in their tacky dressing outside in the cis world. Their photos speak for themselves. And where is this inflated ego coming from? (maybe here?)

Why it bothers me. Because in the real world, people tend to remember the negatives. These negatives fuel prejudice in peoples minds. There's a lot of prejudice against the trans community.

It directly EFFECTS ME.

You post at your own risk, even on a support site.

Imagine being a woman over 25 and hearing some of the things said around here about us from time to time.

The internets can take some thick skin to handle, just like real life.

If you only wish to confirm your own beliefs, do not ask anyone else questions.

IMO, this site would be a much lonelier place, and a much less helpful place, if there were no photo threads to get to know people's faces. I know when I see people's stories about life experiences, I really need to mentally see a picture of the person to go along with that story. That way I can know what stage of transition they're at, whether they pass to my eyes or not, and therefore where to mentally classify such stories. For example: "See? She doesn't look any better than me, and yet is having no problems whatsoever. I need to chill out." or "See? if I give it enough time on HRT it will work out for me too." or "Oh man, she looks way more passable than me and yet is still having problems. I need to learn from this."

Again, me personally, I really need this visual aid. It helps me put a name to faces, a face to their stories about what transitioning is like, and make better personal connections with people because I can put a face to their triumphs and struggles. Plus I'll admit, they REALLY helped me get my self-esteem enough to leave the house in "girl mode" for the first time. So for those who are just nervous and self-conscious, and just need that extra little push to get moving forward, it is a big help. I can't really comment on negative experiences, though. I guess I don't see those when they happen. Egos being bruised a bit, maybe, when either they don't get any comments and feel a bit hurt, or if they still get clocked in the "real" world despite being told that they pass here, but that's about the worst that I usually see.

However... for the love of God, do NOT get rid of the "Before and After" thread or the "Fabulous" thread! The former is by far the biggest and best resource I have EVER seen in terms of showing people that transition really is possible. Without that thread, I might not have EVER found the courage to transition. So PLEASE keep that one! It helps SO many people! And the "Fabulous" thread doesn't hurt anyone, because it's just a celebration thread. It's just people sharing pictures of a new dress or some moment where they felt especially fabulous, and it's a great thread where you can just share your joy with the community and make a great moment of happiness even better. I love that thread!

The "Do I Pass?" Thread, I've personally found to be moderately helpful, but I could live with or without it. The other two, though, those definitely need to stay.

Quote from: Sephirah on April 17, 2014, 01:25:50 PMI would much prefer to see a more general thread documenting the things people have done in their own lives to help them in life, with regard to passing. One which everyone can take away what they feel benefits them personally, rather than asking for opinions on something that, at best, can only really be subjective.

This ^^

It's 6am so, I have some thoughts on this thread but I'll sleep first :p. I think the problem is the context "am I passing" is very subjective, and for somebody like me who is pre-HRT and still dressing in male clothes (blargh, btw) isn't what I'd want a response on anyway, yet posting in the thread, people would ignore my photo because based on the context they're thinking "Wow not passing" and keep scrolling, not wanting to hurt feelings or letting themselves reply on somebody who is very much passing so that they don't have to deal with the non-passing. I think it's harmful, because every person should get words of encouragement or costructive criticism to help. Thus maybe a "help me pass" thread or "feminine progress" thread is a much better idea. At a least then more of us could post photos, not asking specifically 'if we pass', but just getting some friendly advice from girlfriends. THAT DRESS WITH THOSE SHOES? What are you thinking girl?

I get that some people might be unstable, so maybe there should be a post limit before you can post in a thread like the passing thread (so we can get to know the members before they post a photo) but flat out ignoring people isn't any better than not commenting -_-

Quote from: Cindy on April 17, 2014, 01:47:19 PM
I think there is an issue with narcissism in the the threads.

I think that's most threads lol.

If only sarcasm translated better into the written form...

I have mixed feelings about those threads. Like others have said they might give a badly needed boost to someone's courage, or they could potentially make someone over confident and expose them to danger in the real world. It is nice to connect a picture to a screen name though.

People have a choice of whether to participate in those threads, and they get out of them whatever they get out of them. For me i choose not to participate in them, and I rely on RLE to tell me how I'm doing in the real world.

In my own experiences, people have mainly said they're jealous of my appearance, and a lot of the times there is immense honesty in jealousy. It's one thing to call someone beautiful but it's another to bring yourself to actually proclaim to someone that you're jealous. I don't think I could ever express personal envy for someone if I didn't mean it. There are just some points of honesty reserved for real situations, and that's one of them.

I think criticism is what leads to people's desire for appreciation. If there was never judgement or negative subjectivity, it's likely that people wouldn't have as much doubt about their passing abilities. This comes from the people who are insecure themselves as well. They may see other transgirls and be completely baffled why anyone could think they pass, and then convince themselves that they will turn out similar in the vein that they won't pass or express aesthetic femininity. That's where the desire for outside opinions comes in.

This is not just about passability. The world is full of delusion, smoke and mirrors. Countless times have I seen young men and women in tears after being told they lacked a sufficient amount of singing talent in auditioning for American Idol. It's because the people they loved and trusted had supported them in a way that would eventually do more harm than good because they went in there with too much enthusiasm, fueled by the fact their families told them they possessed talent in that particular area. I've even seen post-auditions where their parents and aunts and uncles or even the auditioners themselves are yelling at the judges and telling them that they truly do possess that talent, and it is almost exclusively due to the confidence the people around them bestowed upon them. There's no rule book. It's all subjective, and some people just can't stand the popular opinion.

That being said, it's obvious that just because someone auditioned for American Idol and didn't make it doesn't mean they should give up singing. If people are true to themselves, they will go for it anyway. What may not achieve the best results in the world or be beneficial for anyone but them is what will make them happy. Surrounding yourself with yes-people is where the problem lies. Some people seriously need to be honest with themselves and accept criticism. You don't have to look at the world as either fluffy rainbow land or the dark depths of the 9th layer of hell. It really is not that dramatic. It's not about being able to handle or trying to deny criticism. You don't always get to do that unless you hide yourself away forever and never talk to another soul that doesn't agree with everything you are, say and do. You don't escape criticism...you measure it. You find out how much you need in a way that will improve you as a person, if you are indeed looking for that improvement.

I think if people are expecting a type of criticism or lack thereof, they should state it based on their expectations and wants. If you post a picture, you can either get severe amounts of unrelenting and painful negative honesty that you may not be able to handle, or you could be lifted up into the skies by a barrage of sugar-coated and supportive complements on a silver platter covered in gold leaf and an exotic white truffle. However, if you explicitly state that you want honest but kind criticism regarding your appearance, or whether you're just seeking compliments or positive opinions on how this makeup looks on you or what clothing does and doesn't work, that's where real progress comes in without the extremes. I have confidence in the fact that I will pass with flying colors and so I post my pictures without stating what I want; I'm one of the luckier transgirls and so I doubt people are going to tell me I won't pass when nobody has questioned it for a second so far. People I know, people I've talked to very little, and people I've never met have all told me their honest opinions and I have never gotten a negative one so far. I'm as critical of other people's appearances as I am my own, and if I think about it as "If I saw this picture of another transgirl, what would be my honest, unhinged internal opinion?". Being as critical as I am, I know that I will pass. Nobody I've met has said otherwise, and so that gives me reason to believe I truly will look and feel beautiful.

Let's be honest though, some people have ridiculous standards for others' appearance. I don't believe there are many people that can't pass. Sure, you can be a 6'7" super soldier with buff abs and a hard face, but I've seen people with ridiculous amounts of muscle, size, facial and body hair that I would never assume could pass still manage to look beautiful. Not just passable, but beautiful. That's without FFS too, which is what some transwomen feel they should resort to. So even if you feel like you won't pass, there's always that chance you will, and fantastically. Others are more genetically fortunate for it or have more significant effects on their bodies resulting from HRT, but that doesn't mean people without those perks will be unable to pass. It's 33% appearance, 33% voice, and 33% personality and attitude. A friend told me yesterday that it's 50% confidence and I agree completely. So looking female and passing physically (which are what people are aiming to get opinions on in the passing thread, it seems, considering most people just post pictures and not videos showing off their voice or mannerisms) is not what it's all about. If you truly feel female, then be that way. You should have no trouble passing on the inside if you just believe in yourself.

That's my opinion.

Quote from: Tori on April 17, 2014, 03:35:16 PM
If only sarcasm translated better into the written form...

I say sarcasm font should be italics with reverse tilt.

Back on topic.

From what I've read here since my earlier post, I now think it should a thread about current progress, updates etc (because we don't have that sort of a photo thread)

If that is the main purpose, then the poster can ask for comments positive or negative if they want, otherwise it is just some photos to go along with a short story about the day.

I also agree with those who have posted that the before/after and fabulous threads should not be eliminated. They are both very inspirational and give that extra push to start transition right when it is needed most.