Quote from: Anatta on April 17, 2014, 07:47:20 PM
Kia Ora,

The androgynous stage can be like childhood and it happens only once (unless one chooses to remain androgynous that is)...so enjoy what it brings-make the most of it...You can have some real fun with it...

I have some fond memories of my androgynous experience...The confused look on people's faces, not sure if I was a Arthur or Martha...

Metta Anatta

It's funny because that's what I hate about being andro.  I feel weird either way.  Even on the phone at work today, I had someone argue with me that she was talking to a woman a minute earlier when it was me and yesterday someone thought I was one of my female coworkers.  In a way it's great, but then it makes me feel weird.  Like I'm not either gender.  I'm like this freakish hybrid that can't do either one 100 percent convincingly.  And the looks are horrible.  I care so much about what other people think that those looks make me want to go home, cry and hurt myself.  I really don't know what's wrong with me and why I care so much about others.  I live for them.  And I can't please them no matter how hard I try.  I'm just garbage and I hate myself.  That's really all there is to it.

Sorry for venting, I'm just really feeling like crap at the moment.   

Quote from: learningtolive on April 17, 2014, 08:34:40 PM
It's funny because that's what I hate about being andro.  I feel weird either way.  Even on the phone at work today, I had someone argue with me that she was talking to a woman a minute earlier when it was me and yesterday someone thought I was one of my female coworkers.  In a way it's great, but then it makes me feel weird.  Like I'm not either gender.  I'm like this freakish hybrid that can't do either one 100 percent convincingly.  And the looks are horrible.  I care so much about what other people think that those looks make me want to go home, cry and hurt myself.  I really don't know what's wrong with me and why I care so much about others.  I live for them.  And I can't please them no matter how hard I try.  I'm just garbage and I hate myself.  That's really all there is to it.

Sorry for venting, I'm just really feeling like crap at the moment.   

Well, lets not go and hurt yourself you've got whole lot of experience to look forward to.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 17, 2014, 07:01:52 PM
I was really looking to hear from those that started out believing they would never pass and found themselves pleasantly surprised in time.

Think I was not pleasantly surprised? A picture is worth a thousand words! Time between this picture and my avatar, 4 months!

Quote from: stephaniec on April 17, 2014, 08:42:22 PM
Well, lets not go and hurt yourself you've got whole lot of experience to look forward to.

I think it's sweet of you for trying and I appreciate it, but how do anyone of us really know.  I mean I've been a screw up my whole life.  I ruin everything.  I hurt other people and people really don't like me.  I feel awkward with myself and miserable everyday.  I'm a weirdo who doesn't know how to live life and honestly I don't even want to live most of the time.  I thought this would change things and that I would have my dream life, and maybe that will come to fruition once I get passed this crap, but I'm doubtful to be honest.   And I no longer hurt myself in the ways I used to, but I have so many urges to do just that and numb myself.

Again, I'm sorry.  I probably shouldn't be posting anywhere right now and should just take my sleeping pills watch netflix and go to sleep to be prepared for my last day that I'm employed. 

Quote from: learningtolive on April 17, 2014, 09:01:46 PM
I think it's sweet of you for trying and I appreciate it, but how do anyone of us really know.  I mean I've been a screw up my whole life.  I ruin everything.  I hurt other people and people really don't like me.  I feel awkward with myself and miserable everyday.  I'm a weirdo who doesn't know how to live life and honestly I don't even want to live most of the time.  I thought this would change things and that I would have my dream life, and maybe that will come to fruition once I get passed this crap, but I'm doubtful to be honest.   And I no longer hurt myself in the ways I used to, but I have so many urges to do just that and numb myself.

Again, I'm sorry.  I probably shouldn't be posting anywhere right now and should just take my sleeping pills watch netflix and go to sleep to be prepared for my last day that I'm employed.

Kia Ora LTL,

A while back (in another thread) you said you were seeing a therapist and was going to look into MBCT....How's that coming along ?

Metta Anatta

I didn't, even though it was recommended for me to do many people. I got tired of living as a man, and don't identify as androgynous, so I decided to "skip" it.
It's not required of you, only do it if you feel you can do it.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 17, 2014, 09:01:46 PM
I think it's sweet of you for trying and I appreciate it, but how do anyone of us really know.  I mean I've been a screw up my whole life.  I ruin everything.  I hurt other people and people really don't like me.  I feel awkward with myself and miserable everyday.  I'm a weirdo who doesn't know how to live life and honestly I don't even want to live most of the time.  I thought this would change things and that I would have my dream life, and maybe that will come to fruition once I get passed this crap, but I'm doubtful to be honest.   And I no longer hurt myself in the ways I used to, but I have so many urges to do just that and numb myself.

Again, I'm sorry.  I probably shouldn't be posting anywhere right now and should just take my sleeping pills watch netflix and go to sleep to be prepared for my last day that I'm employed.

A question for you LTL. I'm almost tempted to do this via a PM, because I'm going to be a bit hard . Sorry. I care about you a lot LTL, and I'd love to be able to help.

Lets suppose for a moment that you wake up tomorrow appearing completely female, but otherwise with your same current anatomy. How would you react? Would you be ready to venture out the door as your natural female self? Can you play the role of a woman out in the world? How is your voice? How are your mannerisms? Are there any male characteristics still there?

I'm guessing that you would have much the same issues you do now.

You seem to put so much stock into physically passing that I think it's hard for you to see the wool for the jumper. I'm sorry if that is harsh .

Passing is about so much more than appearance.  I've said to you before, you physically pass better than I do. And I have no issues what so ever living as me.

But, it's fine. You could be physically ready to take the big social step already, but you're certainly not mentally ready. And that is more than OK. Be thankful that you're not far from it. And it's way less scary than you think. As someone who has been there and done that, all you need is confidence.

So start off with baby steps to build some confidence. It doesn't take much, and then all you have to do is let it snowball!

So what if you get clocked once or twice? You probably cannot avoid it. Are you not a woman? Are you not being authentic ( even now you're being authentic in your andro phase )? Isn't it their issue and not yours? It's not the nicest thing, but it's no different than someone taking issue with you over something stupid.

I'm not trying to push you into going full time or even part time. Start smaller, start where you're comfortable. But do take those tiny risks.

I know the middle-of-the-road is hard. I've been there, done that. It's amazing how quick I got out of it once I started growing that confidence.

So plan something small to expose your real self. Don't sit there sad and feeling down, because that won't help you at all.

Please?

PS. You should know that the post of yours ( and my reply ) interrupted my baking. Not very thoughtful

Quote from: Anatta on April 17, 2014, 09:12:06 PM
Kia Ora LTL,

A while back (in another thread) you said you were seeing a therapist and was going to look into MBCT....How's that coming along ?

Metta Anatta

I love my therapist, but I don't know how well I'm progressing.  While I was considering picking up a second one that is trained for anxiety and depression issues as their speciality, I've read that you shouldn't see two at the same time.  I feel very conflicted and don't know how to proceed.

Quote from: Lauren5 on April 17, 2014, 09:12:32 PM
I didn't, even though it was recommended for me to do many people. I got tired of living as a man, and don't identify as androgynous, so I decided to "skip" it.
It's not required of you, only do it if you feel you can do it.

I would skip the andro stage if there were possible, but I think it is for me.  Sure I've recieved wonderful feedback from many people; however, walking the walk is much different than judging a photo on a forum.  I have potential that could be shaped into something one day, but who knows.  In any case, I'm really not the best person to assess my own body because I have MAJOR body issues.  Like really big ones compared to most people, so how can I ever know for certain?   I guess the measuring tool for me is to consider what other people may say and try to hide from their potential problems with me or their judgement through passing.

Quote from: SammyRose on April 17, 2014, 09:44:39 PM
A question for you LTL. I'm almost tempted to do this via a PM, because I'm going to be a bit hard . Sorry. I care about you a lot LTL, and I'd love to be able to help.

Lets suppose for a moment that you wake up tomorrow appearing completely female, but otherwise with your same current anatomy. How would you react? Would you be ready to venture out the door as your natural female self? Can you play the role of a woman out in the world? How is your voice? How are your mannerisms? Are there any male characteristics still there?

I'm guessing that you would have much the same issues you do now.

You seem to put so much stock into physically passing that I think it's hard for you to see the wool for the jumper. I'm sorry if that is harsh .

Passing is about so much more than appearance.  I've said to you before, you physically pass better than I do. And I have no issues what so ever living as me.

But, it's fine. You could be physically ready to take the big social step already, but you're certainly not mentally ready. And that is more than OK. Be thankful that you're not far from it. And it's way less scary than you think. As someone who has been there and done that, all you need is confidence.

So start off with baby steps to build some confidence. It doesn't take much, and then all you have to do is let it snowball!

So what if you get clocked once or twice? You probably cannot avoid it. Are you not a woman? Are you not being authentic ( even now you're being authentic in your andro phase )? Isn't it their issue and not yours? It's not the nicest thing, but it's no different than someone taking issue with you over something stupid.

I'm not trying to push you into going full time or even part time. Start smaller, start where you're comfortable. But do take those tiny risks.

I know the middle-of-the-road is hard. I've been there, done that. It's amazing how quick I got out of it once I started growing that confidence.

So plan something small to expose your real self. Don't sit there sad and feeling down, because that won't help you at all.

Please?

I know I need to do this, but the question is when?  I'm really yearning to gain self confidence and stop seeing myself as garbage, yet I don't want to push things to quickly.  If walking out of the house is going to lead to me getting clocked, which it has, then I'm really not up for it.  I'd rather reduce that possibility as much as possible and then take the smaller steps.

Mannerisms are fine.  I'm not changing who I am regardless.  I want to accept that.  I've always been different anyway.  My therapist once remarked that many transwomen have to relearn mannerisms when trying to blend, but she didn't think that was an issue for me.  Even though I am certianly more reserved and shy as male, I really don't give off a masculine vibe at all.  Voice is being worked on really hard.  I don't think I'm anywhere near close, but then I've been getting "misgendered" on the phone recently.  It's been quite bizzare for me, actually, because I never would have expected that.  Still, I need a lot more time with everything. June seems way too close.  Maybe I am ready and I'm just avoiding the hard work?  I don't know. 

Thanks for your thoughts.  They weren't harsh at all.  I always appreciate food for thought when it's done in a considerate manner. 

I seemed to have skipped that stage. I went full time when i started hrt and dressed very girly.

Quote from: noleen111 on April 19, 2014, 11:08:24 AM
I seemed to have skipped that stage. I went full time when i started hrt and dressed very girly.

I understand what you are saying, though is that possible for all of us?  I guess there was no way for me to have gone full time before hrt.  I would of just looked like a gay man in drag.  Now I'm much more andro and coming somewhat close to passing (some even say I do), but I'm still andro.  I went from looking boyish to looking andro.  I can't imagine going boy to woman in terms of appearance in the course of a day or even week.  It just seems so impossible for most of us, not all, if we are doing so with the expectation of passing.  I don't know.  I just want to make sure I blend as much as possible.

However, I'll admit.  I'm stalling.  I'm scared and terrified to start making the changes I need.  My therapist points out how much I like to avoid the reality of things and hope for an alternative situation.  The fact is I will have to put myself out there.  And she is right about that even if it scares and hurts me that I'm going to just have to grow up and get past my fears.  It's just I want to be at the best possible situation when I actually make a leap and attempt tackingling my fears.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 19, 2014, 06:17:36 AM
I love my therapist, but I don't know how well I'm progressing.  While I was considering picking up a second one that is trained for anxiety and depression issues as their speciality, I've read that you shouldn't see two at the same time.  I feel very conflicted and don't know how to proceed.

Kia Ora LTL,

Would you say that anxiety and depression are the main root of your identity/self esteem problems ? (From observation I would say they are)

If this is the case, then don't you think it would be wise to go with the therapist who 'specialises' in these issues..."A calmer mind 'Begets' a calmer world" where one can see things more clearly...

Don't let the ego try to beat you down and talk you out of it....

Metta Anatta

Quote from: Anatta on April 19, 2014, 04:08:22 PM
Kia Ora LTL,

Would you say that anxiety and depression are the main root of your identity/self esteem problems ? (From observation I would say they are)

If this is the case, then don't you think it would be wise to go with the therapist who 'specialises' in these issues..."A calmer mind 'Begets' a calmer world" where one can see things more clearly...

Don't let the ego try to beat you down and talk you out of it....

Metta Anatta

Well, it's a combination of depression, anxiety, and gender dysphoria.  Oddly enough they are all tied together in some ways.  They aren't all stand alone issues in themselves.  I think my therapist is trying to get me to do more exposure therapy as a way to reduce my anxiety, thus in turn allowing me more freedom to assert myself and be myself without fear and shame, and thus leading me to a path where I can take on things or a lifestyle that will make me happier.  Overall, she's right.  But I just don't know how to get over my anxiety or self hate.  Everyone says believe in yourself and be confident, but how does one really do that?  How do I believe myself or become confident?  My therapist tells me there are no tricks and that I need to just face my fear and densitize myself to them, but I feel like there should be another step.  Maybe a specialist would help in that department in order to get me along the way.  I just don't want to leave behind my other therapist because she is very helpful.   Either that or I can just numb myself with meds and drugs to not feel as much anxiety.  Though that's not the best idea, but maybe I need that for the short term.  Still that's something I'm unsrure about as well.

I'm 6 months on hormones and I'd say I have been Andro mode for the last month and I'm expecting another 6 months of it at least.  If I put makeup on and a wig I can pass but to be honest I still feel like I'm acting when I wear a wig.

I'm growing my hair out and letting the hormones work.  Sure I might look a bit strange but I just try not to let it bother me.

When I go full time I want to be happy.  I'd rather have a few more months as an unhappy Andro than jump to fast

Quote from: learningtolive on April 19, 2014, 04:48:37 PM
Well, it's a combination of depression, anxiety, and gender dysphoria.

The former two are symptoms of the latter.  Totally related, most likely .

I went through an andro phase for sure.  I think my face was feminine enough to start with, but just in the way I carried my body, how muscular it was, how I held my hips, those sorts of things were so masculine that it didn't matter what my face looked like tbh.  It took actually a long time for those things to really get barrrrely into the feminine range.  I didn't work on it or anything it just sort of happened, I think everything just loosened over time or something, in any case I carry my body much differently now.  Those cues I feel were a big deal in the early days, and by early I mean like a full year or more, and really affected how I came across to people and definitely the image I saw in the mirror too.  Often though, what I see in the mirror has little to nothing to do with reality, but that is another story.

The thing I do when the mirror doesn't agree with me is I just stop everything.  Even if I had already done all this I get a shower, I clean my face, moisturize thoroughly, do all the regimen things, redo make-up/hair.  Often this fixes it.  I think because it is subtle things that throw off my appearance, and really getting all that makeup cleaned off and reapplied and the steam from the shower takes care of a lot of skin issues that can happen.  Also, a lot of times it is tired eyes for which I find cucumbers work wonders.  I don't always turn and ugly day into a pretty one, but I do often turn them into looking okay days.

When I was last on this forum I believe you hadn't yet started even trying to present female, or you were just starting to.  Idk if that has changed, but if you aren't making that effort, you might think about it?  It makes a huge difference.

Quote from: f_Anna_tastic on April 19, 2014, 05:38:06 PM
I'm 6 months on hormones and I'd say I have been Andro mode for the last month and I'm expecting another 6 months of it at least.  If I put makeup on and a wig I can pass but to be honest I still feel like I'm acting when I wear a wig.

I'm growing my hair out and letting the hormones work.  Sure I might look a bit strange but I just try not to let it bother me.

When I go full time I want to be happy.  I'd rather have a few more months as an unhappy Andro than jump to fast

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I feel the same way about not wanting to got too fast.  At the same time, I realize I'm probably going too slow.  I don't know.  But I think growing out you hair is a great idea.  There is nothing wrong with wearing a wig, but natural hair has been a great relief to me.  Sure it's annoying to have to blow dry and straighten all the time, but it always makes me feel better and one of the things I'm less dysphoric about nowadays. 

Quote from: Jen on April 19, 2014, 06:15:00 PM
The former two are symptoms of the latter.  Totally related, most likely .

I went through an andro phase for sure.  I think my face was feminine enough to start with, but just in the way I carried my body, how muscular it was, how I held my hips, those sorts of things were so masculine that it didn't matter what my face looked like tbh.  It took actually a long time for those things to really get barrrrely into the feminine range.  I didn't work on it or anything it just sort of happened, I think everything just loosened over time or something, in any case I carry my body much differently now.  Those cues I feel were a big deal in the early days, and by early I mean like a full year or more, and really affected how I came across to people and definitely the image I saw in the mirror too.  Often though, what I see in the mirror has little to nothing to do with reality, but that is another story.

The thing I do when the mirror doesn't agree with me is I just stop everything.  Even if I had already done all this I get a shower, I clean my face, moisturize thoroughly, do all the regimen things, redo make-up/hair.  Often this fixes it.  I think because it is subtle things that throw off my appearance, and really getting all that makeup cleaned off and reapplied and the steam from the shower takes care of a lot of skin issues that can happen.  Also, a lot of times it is tired eyes for which I find cucumbers work wonders.  I don't always turn and ugly day into a pretty one, but I do often turn them into looking okay days.

When I was last on this forum I believe you hadn't yet started even trying to present female, or you were just starting to.  Idk if that has changed, but if you aren't making that effort, you might think about it?  It makes a huge difference.

Hey Jen,

Thanks for the tips.  Yeah, my eyes suck.  I've tried almost everything and nothing works other than concealer for me in that department.  And I wonder if what I see in the mirror is an acurate reflection, I'm told it's not, but how am I to know?

I did try going out as female, though it was more gender neutral (just a little concealer and more tight fitting clothes), and I got called a ->-bleeped-<-.  Now almost everyone else ignored me completly and didn't act odd, but these 3 jerks thought it was okay to quietly snicker and say ->-bleeped-<-.  I kind of went home and had a breakdown since then.  Now I'm having an even harder time getting passed this all.   My therapist tried to spin it positively by saying you were more andro than anything and most people saw a feminine person, but come on, being called ->-bleeped-<- isn't a compliment.  Anyway, I know I got to get passed this, but I'm even more vigilant about passing now.  That's why I want everything to go as smoothly as possible, though I do realize I have to take risks and my therapist was giving me a hard time today.  She's kind of convinced that passing is no longer my problem and that my self esteem, fear and confidence are everything that's wrong.  Eh...

Anyway, may I ask, how long into hrt did it take for you to leave that andro stage?  I'm on like month 10 of hrt, but my current dosing (and the only really effective one) started in October, so it almost feels like 6 or 7 months of real progress.

It was slow, the body stuff.  I think it is still ongoing, but I feel my body is finally androgish and I guess my face kind of skews everything feminine enough that it works for me.  I didn't stop being at odds with my body in a major way until probably 2 years in.  I still feel somewhat at odds with it tbh.

I am sorry your first experience going out went that way.  Such a nightmare!  I wonder if it might have gone better if you had fully committed, instead of just doing tighter clothes and some concealer?  I find that people in society, I mean the terrible ones, react very poorly when they see the gender binary being challenged.  I wonder if sort of dipping your toe in rather than diving in headfirst actually worked against you?  Those kinds of reactions from people can be really destructive to your confidence, but if you can be strong, which being trans kind of requires, those experiences can be used as helpful feedback, cause you learn tangibly that something maybe needs to be corrected in your presentation.  I wish you had some girlfriends that could help you figure out a good style for you.  It is sooooo hard to figure it all out by yourself when you missed out on learning things as you grew up.  Also going out with them, so you aren't alone, would help muchly I bet.

Quote from: Jen on April 19, 2014, 07:02:22 PM
It was slow, the body stuff.  I think it is still ongoing, but I feel my body is finally androgish and I guess my face kind of skews everything feminine enough that it works for me.  I didn't stop being at odds with my body in a major way until probably 2 years in.  I still feel somewhat at odds with it tbh.

I am sorry your first experience going out went that way.  Such a nightmare!  I wonder if it might have gone better if you had fully committed, instead of just doing tighter clothes and some concealer?  I find that people in society, I mean the terrible ones, react very poorly when they see the gender binary being challenged.  I wonder if sort of dipping your toe in rather than diving in headfirst actually worked against you?  Those kinds of reactions from people can be really destructive to your confidence, but if you can be strong, which being trans kind of requires, those experiences can be used as helpful feedback, cause you learn tangibly that something maybe needs to be corrected in your presentation.  I wish you had some girlfriends that could help you figure out a good style for you.  It is sooooo hard to figure it all out by yourself when you missed out on learning things as you grew up.  Also going out with them, so you aren't alone, would help muchly I bet.

Well, the two years thing makes me feel a lot better.  At least I'm not hopeless here.  And I honestly am probably not as bad as I think I am.  I have a tendency to lean towards self hate and all, so that doesn't help.  Maybe I will start small somewhere more remote and see where that takes me.

Yeah, I plan on making my next "big" outing with friends, but I feel weird about reaching out.  I'm very socially awkward.  Like I feel like a bad or selfish person for asking my friends for help.  In reality, they would probably love to help me.  I'm just really not good with people and always worried that I'm making them hate me.  I've been planning this for months, but can't get the nerve to ask for help. 

First of all, we tend to fall into the societal trap of thinking of genders as black and white, if you look around you might discover that there are many shades of grey and there are plenty of people who choose to live as varying shades of grey, what is really causing us discomfort is that our outwards appearance does not match what we feel we should be.

Portraying anything other than black or white draws a lot of attention and we feel like we are outing ourselves to everyone even if it's the last thing we want, we are in fact advertising our biggest insecurity to everyone we meet before even opening our mouths.

I'm currently hiding in the sports group, I cycle into work, cycling clothes are form fitting for both genders, some people will assume I'm a feminine guy, others assume I'm an athletic girl. I use black eye-liner on my upper eyeline but I smudge/blend is so it's not obvious, I use white eye-liner on my lower tear-line, nobody ever recognises white make-up. I find this strategy fits me perfectly since I can be attractive but still androgynous, otherwise I'd have to dress drab so as to not draw any attention or trouble.

I can still put on a wig, full make-up and go out for an evening, not sure if I can still go out in guy mode, have not really felt the need. The first night I went out with all my friends full femme mode I gave them a heads up and tried to break the ice by sending them a selfie and asking them if they knew the girl, I think that sent the right message and set expectations without directly asking for help/support, if anyone had tried to give me grief I'm sure every last one of them would have fought tooth and claw.

Finally remember that humour can defuse even the tensest of situations but it has to be tactful and appropriate. Be proud but humble, know you are breaking social conventions and play on it, If I had I time machine I'd probably end up hitting on myself and giving myself quite the shock.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 17, 2014, 07:01:52 PM
You could be confident that no one will think you are wearing a red shirt, but you would be wrong if you are wearing one.  Confidence is a way to influence reality, but not change it.  While I need work in this department, it's not everything.

That was effin'ing hilarious!!!! Seriously thank you i'm so so so sick of all ya need is confidence. No. It's not. I have about .01 ounces of confidence and my self esteem barometer has been lifting lately, but yet I go out in public, sometimes pretty hideously, and yet everyone calls me miss and if I have to pass as male for a bank withdrawal or something, it is the most awkward thing ever. Ugh, I hate disclosing. I had a medical examine once to get medical insurance and the intake nurse was talking to me about my vagina and just talked about it and talked it and I obfuscated the question. That's how much I hate disclosing. The other day on the train this women was telling me to make sure I dont get preggers that I need to live and have fun. I must look like a slut. Or really pretty so I have to beat guys of a stick but I just beat em off....jk ok not really but its only one guy,.

And yeah, I went from an "andro stage" to a "kind of pass not really pass" to a "pass but could still pass as male phase" to a "totally female phase can not pass as male phase" which it where I am at now, apparently. But for the first seven months of my 13 months of HRT my does was uber low. So,...i dont know how much it counts. I haven't worked on anything. But then again I've been playing with makeup for years, mainly had female friends growing up and heavily identified with stuff consider feminine, witchcraft, fashion, liking dat penis jk lol ok not really and I have about zero interest in guns, cars, fighting violence or any other macho crap. Though I will listen to my BF talk about cars since he real really wants one so ya know that's fun. But he must think I'm a total idiot half the time since I'm all like "what's torque?" No really what is it?