What was your experience like growing up perceived as a male? How do you feel that affected you? And how has that affected/will that affect your experience as a trans woman? What do you think can be done to draw attention to how sexism hurts both genders? Let's have a thread where everyone can talk about their socialization and what you're struggling with. (:

I'll post my experience too I just don't want to for the first post because I don't know how well it would represent what everyone else went through too (because it was strongly affected by mental illness and abuse.)

It just felt wrong.  I didn't fit in with guys very well when I was a kid, and most of my friends at an early age were girls.  Boys liked to pummel me on a regular basis because I was weird, vulnerable, effeminate and lacked the ability or willingness to fight back.  I probably got beaten up every other day in junior high school.  I tried so hard to fit in to the point of pathetic overcompensation. 

When I started high school, during the first day, first period I punched the first bully right in the face in front of everyone when the teacher turned away.  The bullying stopped, but I still had no real friends.  There were people who would put up with me and hang out once in awhile and people who weren't overtly hostile, but that was about it until I turned into one of the misfit metalhead stoners.  They were the first guy friends I really had or fit in with.  I learned to fake dudeliness pretty well after that and it eventually became second nature.  I basically turned into a douchebag and partied waay too much.  I got girlfriends pretty easily and convinced myself I was "normal".

When I couldn't take it anymore, it turned out that being a girl was actually easier than being a fake guy.  It was natural.   I had to peel back a lot of layers of self deceit and defense mechanisms, but at the core was a sad girl who never got to shine.  I always knew on some level that she was there, and she is the real me.  Because of this I was never a misogynist and hated the whole "bros before hos" mentality. 

Quote from: Jill F on April 17, 2014, 07:49:56 PM
It just felt wrong.  I didn't fit in with guys very well when I was a kid, and most of my friends at an early age were girls.  Boys liked to pummel me on a regular basis because I was weird, vulnerable, effeminate and lacked the ability or willingness to fight back.  I probably got beaten up every other day in junior high school.  I tried so hard to fit in to the point of pathetic overcompensation. 

When I started high school, during the first day, first period I punched the first bully right in the face in front of everyone when the teacher turned away.  The bullying stopped, but I still had no real friends.  There were people who would put up with me and hang out once in awhile and people who weren't overtly hostile, but that was about it until I turned into one of the misfit metalhead stoners.  They were the first guy friends I really had or fit in with.  I learned to fake dudeliness pretty well after that and it eventually became second nature.  I basically turned into a douchebag and partied waay too much.  I got girlfriends pretty easily and convinced myself I was "normal".

When I couldn't take it anymore, it turned out that being a girl was actually easier than being a fake guy.  It was natural.   I had to peel back a lot of layers of self deceit and defense mechanisms, but at the core was a sad girl who never got to shine.  I always knew on some level that she was there, and she is the real me.  Because of this I was never a misogynist and hated the whole "bros before hos" mentality.

Thanks Jill. It does seem like middle/high school is where the issues get pretty intense. And I think that so many trans women here have been bullied or beaten for who they were is just horrible. The acceptability of violence just seems so sick.... Especially when it's basically between children.

I guess it's a sort of weird topic to me because I actually missed middle and high school. I wasn't bullied per se, but for me, my body image just crashed when I gained some weight in elementary school. I coped thru emotional eating which I learned from my mom. And my dad was incredibly abusive about my weight and my body. I don't even know if he meant to be, but he was. He would ask me my weight in public, he would WEIGH me in public, he would tell his parents about my weight. He had started doing this before I was even overweight. I was 9 years old and 64 lbs. Not sure what was wrong with him because looking it up now that is average. But I remember the exact number cuz it was a massive trigger for me. But the emotional eating got really bad after I suffered repeated sexual abuse when I was 10. I started gaining so much weight. He would force me to go to the gym with him and make me just feel disgusting. I remember one time he basically took me there, told me to get on the scale, and I did. My weight was really high, and he made some terrible comment about it, I can't remember, but I just broke down crying and ran out of there. Ran out to the car and just cried my soul out. Maybe it sounds mild to people, but this had been going on for so long, it had just ruined what little sense of self worth I had. It was basically traumatic every time. I became so hyper sensitive about my weight and my appearance and so uncomfortable in myself. I skipped school and became sort of a black sheep to all my teachers because I was missing so much they could hold me back for it. And other kids gossiped about it but didn't usually confront me at least.

Of course as soon as I lost the weight, my dad and family just had other problems with how I looked. My grandparents started telling me I was too small and needed to gain weight every time I saw them. God, you can't win. And there was constant harassment to get my hair cut. He would make fun of me and say my hair was longer than my sister's (he thought it was an insult?) and she would judge me over it too. People my age would make fun of me looking like a girl, but I really didn't care as long as I wasn't fat. And otherwise I would be the butt of short jokes, though fortunately I didn't feel self-conscious about that either.

But yeah, after elementary school, I just stopped going. My parents had to homeschool me or they were going to get in legal trouble. And I was basically totally isolated from there until a year of college. Then I transitioned. It's kinda crazy. I could write a million things of what being isolated for all those years did to me, but yeah, it's not especially relevant to this thread.... except that I always wonder if my parents would have let that happen to a daughter. To just be aimless and isolated for her entire adolescence. Because my sister was the golden child, and I don't know if that was about gender, but it hurt. My mom told me once that I was just running away from my problems, but she didn't try to help me. All I ever got was blame and rolling eyes when I desperately needed somebody to help and nobody cared.

So it's interesting to read what high school was like for people. I was only in middle school for a little while but I can see how it would get really hard around then. I would hang out with the kind of weird/alternative kids but I did get along with most people, it was only brief though.

Beyond then until college, my only real socialization was one-time encounters with people, so it was always interesting how they would react to me.. sometimes I passed, sometimes I didn't, usually people thought I was just 12 or 13, cuz I had stopped growing at that age. I ended up watching the people I went to elementary school with become basically adults around me and I still didn't feel like I could pass for a high school student. It was intimidating and weird. I was 20 and realized they all seemed so much more grown up than me. I think emotionally I was stuck as a preteen.

There were some specifically gendered experiences that stuck with me though. When I was 19 I saw a therapist for anxiety and basically what I got was an hour of gender harassment every other week. It was so not relevant to my issues. This woman was totally inappropriate and I shouldn't have given her even the full first session but I had serious boundary-setting issues. She reduced all my serious problems to basically not being male enough. I think the first thing she asked me was my sexuality. When I said I wasn't interested in sex, she consulted a psychiatrist and came back and said he agreed that I must be lying. She was really pushy about it. But do you look at porn? You don't think anything when you see attractive girls? Then she turned to my body. Gain some muscle? Are you eating enough? Why do you have long hair? I'll refer you to my stylist so you can get it cut. So... do you grow facial hair? Can I see you turn around? Can you point out your cheekbones? She claimed that she was having to baby me. It just felt like I was never being seen for me. Just as "potential future man--too old to be a boy--not a human yet." Of course I had never mentioned planning to transition to her. Anyway, I terminated then. I guess potential future men don't need real help or empathy.

I get the feeling that it would have been like that from a lot of people. I just think those attitudes are so hurtful and guys need emotional support and empathy just like girls do. Sorry if I don't have much on topic to share, I was hoping more people would chime in. D:

My childhood was socially a nightmare. And that remained for a long time. It took me an extraordinarily long time to learn to fake it. And of course, doing do made me feel dead inside. Yuck.

In school, I just didn't fit in with boys. I was probably the most picked on and hated kid in my class in primary school. And teachers kept separating me from girls, who I got along with well. I remember being well aware that my behavior wasn't that of a boy. Nothing was. Not the way I spoke, walked, etc etc. I consciously started working on changing those behaviors to be more male. While I was minorly successful in doing that, it was too late, and my reputation preceded me at every turn.

High school changed though. There was so many more people, and there were a number of other social misfits who I fell in with. Some were just gay, some had other personal issues, and some were just rebels. Nobody would pick on us collectively. Of course when alone or between classes, I was punched, kicked, spat on. You name it... And going through puberty at the same time... I had such an unending amount of hate for everything, me included. Everything and everyone around me suffered. I just about fell into a life of drugs and worse. Not proud days.

It still took another 5 or so years after that to learn to fake it to the point where I could fit in perfectly. If I wanted to... which wasn't often. I was deeply depressed and didn't want to be involved in life at all. So I scraped by with the bare minimum in every single aspect. Much of those years are a blur of alcohol and depression. I was such a mess, and I'm amazed that I lived through it. I just didn't want to exist.

Another few years after that, I grew big. All from my very unhealthy lifestyle. I had the size to be intimidating, but not the personality. But through yet more horrors or working nightshift, I become a horror too. I became a jerk and didn't think twice about the way I treated people. And nobody would mess with me. I looked angry, and big enough to look after myself. One day I even stood up to three guys who were just being jerks. They backed down too. Everyone did. This new found strength ( even if fake ) was intoxicating in a way. I was the alpha. And the constant anger I felt inside was being released with my behavior. Yet another collage of years that I'm not proud of and would sooner forget. And that was the peak of my male socialisation. Horrible years.

That behavior did soften over the years, through necessity. That behavior didn't work well in the workplace... Even though it softened somewhat, I was still angry. And I remained that way up until I started dealing with my trans issues and started transitioning.

And my god, when I started to transition, that learned behavior fell off me in such huge chunks. People everywhere were commenting how I seemed happier and more relaxed. And it was true. The anger that fueled all of that behavior was disappearing. I didn't even have to learn those female behaviors. They were always there, they always came naturally. My own mother said to me recently, "There's nothing male about you. The way you walk and behave... you're just natural". Makes me sad that I waited so long to be me.

Quote from: Jill F on April 17, 2014, 07:49:56 PM
It just felt wrong.  I didn't fit in with guys very well when I was a kid, and most of my friends at an early age were girls.  Boys liked to pummel me on a regular basis because I was weird, vulnerable, effeminate and lacked the ability or willingness to fight back.  I probably got beaten up every other day in junior high school.  I tried so hard to fit in to the point of pathetic overcompensation. 


When I couldn't take it anymore, it turned out that being a girl was actually easier than being a fake guy.  It was natural.   I had to peel back a lot of layers of self deceit and defense mechanisms, but at the core was a sad girl who never got to shine.  I always knew on some level that she was there, and she is the real me.  Because of this I was never a misogynist and hated the whole "bros before hos" mentality.

Signed Jessica Merriman!

Jill are you sure we are not clones of each other?

I won't post my story because it's similar to Jill and SammyRose.
But, what I find 'amazing' is that most stories, read on other sites too, are so similar...
The recurrent points like being bullied, outcasted, try to hide our feeling, trying to walk in shoes that aren't ours, sometimes drugs too.

Sonia

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 17, 2014, 09:12:57 PM
Signed Jessica Merriman!

Jill are you sure we are not clones of each other?

Oh, that's it!  I am so going blond next time around. 

Quote from: BeingSonia on April 17, 2014, 10:11:15 PM
I won't post my story because it's similar to Jill and SammyRose.
But, what I find 'amazing' is that most stories, read on other sites too, are so similar...
The recurrent points like being bullied, outcasted, try to hide our feeling, trying to walk in shoes that aren't ours, sometimes drugs too.

Par for the course perhaps

I'm probably just stating the obvious, but from all the people I know, and the stories I've read, it was the ones who hid their real selves well who did better in society as their birth gender.

TL;DR
My social upbringing was pretty much androgynous until college, then male dorms happened. And I need to work on writing shorter forum posts.


Before middle school I wasn't really raised as male, just whatever I felt like doing, which in retrospect is probably part of the reason it took me so long to begin to question my gender.
Middle school (and even before) I had a few bullies because I was smart and small. My fifth grade teacher told me I should feel sorry for them because they are jealous and know they would never make it as far in life as I would. With that mindset I was bullied less because I didn't react the way they wanted.

In 7th grade I learned to scare away the bullies by going bug eyed (my eyes were huge because of the pressure from my glaucoma) some of then even decided to protect me from other bullies after that....

During those middle school years I never had more than 3 male "friends". The kids that I would invite to my house to play video games with. The only reason I kept them was because I was told I needed friends.
In school and among the neighbors I always preferred to socialize with girls.

8th grade and beyond was all amazing private school. No judgement, no bullying. Very lgbt friendly school (I think three kids transitioned or started transition there in the past 5 years (my sister just graduated so I hear the news from her)
I made friends with guys and girls there, but the guys were more of a facade. I would always prefer to hang out with the girls when possibly.
I took theater and art and music along with physics math and comp sci, so my education didn't socialize Mr by gender much. The locker rooms there weren't really gender specific... The girls lockeroom was the loud room and the guys locker room was the quiet room. At least during theater stuff and after classes were over.

My engineering college is where I really had the most male socialization. The school was about 80% male. I always preferred when suite mates would have a girlfriend living in the dorm with us because it made me feel more comfortable. I think the girlfriends would also lower the raging testosterone of the guys in the suite because they had to be respectful...

I still hung out primarily with women in college. Or at least in a group with women in it. But loving 24/7 with college guys forced me to pick up a lot of male mannerisms and social skills.

I just wish I had known about hormones earlier in college because I would have transitioned then if i had known about them.

I grew up in private schools, where bullying wasn't quite the issue it is in other schools.  And I haven't had the same trouble with socializing as a guy as most trans girls have, but it still never really feels like I'm fully accepted.  In a group I can blend in, but the one on one interaction isn't quite there.

I learned early on to push my feelings down and try hard not to be feminine.  I wanted to be around the girls, but knew what the effect would be.  I still deal with this in guy mode.  I'd love to compliment a co-worker or friend on her cute outfit/hair/earrings, but I know it would be weird for a guy to even notice those things.  Yesterday one of the admin assistants came into my office and she was wearing the cutest polka dot pants, but I had to pretend I didn't notice.  So there's the constant pressure of performing the male role...I can't wait to be free of that.

And after writing that paragraph I can't help but point out that guys aren't even supposed to use the word cute...unless referring to a puppy or a baby. 


So much of socializing as a guy is about ripping on your friends.  It's funny.  I will miss that.  Guys are better behaved around women.  Another thing I will miss after transition is playing poker with the guys and smoking cigars.  I'll probably still enjoy cigars, but won't be in their club anymore.  But on the bright side, I'll be part of the club I've wanted to be in my whole life.

Teased constantly. Called names constantly. Called "gay" constantly, called a "->-bleeped-<-got" even on a few occasions. Laughed at when I cried, and told to grow up or "man up." Not allowed to express my side that longed to squee at cute things and do things that were pretty. I was told by my own therapist and my own parents that the only way to make the bullying stop was to basically fight back. To become just as uncaring and cold-hearted as them.

Had to watch in agony as my stupid peers constantly objectified women, rated them on scales of "hotness," compared their girlfriends' asses to each-other as if they were freaking trophies to be won, dumped girls for no reason and left them crying and hurting and hating themselves. Hating myself, and hating my gender assignment, for being lumped in together with those stupid uncaring a**holes. Constantly listening to stories of all of the girls they've screwed, constantly listening to stories of their drunken escapades and all of the stupid crap they've done as some sort of proof of their masculinity.

Teased for wearing short shorts. Teased for singing soprano in choir up until age 15. Teased for crossing my legs. Teased for standing with my hands on my hips. Teased for being a "teacher's pet" because I enjoyed talking to the teachers so much.

The message that I constantly got as a young boy was "beat other people up, sing songs about blowing things up, don't give a crap about anyone's feelings, treat women like crap, don't show any emotion whatsoever otherwise you're a "pussy," not having a penis would be the worst thing possible in the world and you'd better rather be dead than be a girl, do a bunch of stupid s*** to prove how reckless and manly you are, and again, don't you dare show any behavior that might be considered feminine, or you're gay, and being gay is the worst thing in the world."

I hate middle school guys. Seriously. I still do. Those first few years of puberty, they seriously contract brain damage. They do stupid s***, they don't care about anyone, and their entire life becomes about proving how manly they are and proving that they're not gay. And for someone like me who got more effeminate as a middle-schooler instead of more masculine, my only options were either to be myself and get beat up and teased and treated like dirt, fight back and hurt them just like they'd hurt me in order to gain respect, or stifle myself and sacrifice my very sense of self, the very things that make me who I am, and show no emotion, no difference, no connection to the world, just to keep people from picking on me.

I chose the later. It was easier. I nearly destroyed my academic career because I spent every hour of every day hating being a guy, wishing I could be free from this masculine prison and just be myself, but feeling trapped because I had no option but hide or face torment. And I'd wish I could cry. But over time, I forgot how. I couldn't even cry at my own grandparents' funerals. And I felt completely awful, and completely empty. An emotional being trapped in an existence that constantly forced me to "man up" and to not be hurt by all of the things that were hurting me.

Wishing that I could have friends to talk to... wishing that I could just have a shoulder to cry on, someone to vent all of my feelings to. But none of my male friends ever wanted to talk. Because they were constantly caught up in their own little worlds, only interested in playing games all the time, only interested in superficial interests that we had in common. There was never an emotional connection. And once we stopped both liking those same games, we had nothing to talk about anymore. And every girl assuming that all I wanted was sex, even though all I wanted was a best female friend that I could talk to again, like I'd had as a kid.

Lost... lonely... friendless despite being surrounded by friends... stifled... emotionless.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 11:26:36 PM
Teased constantly. Called names constantly. Called "gay" constantly, called a "->-bleeped-<-got" even on a few occasions. Laughed at when I cried, and told to grow up or "man up." Not allowed to express my side that longed to squee at cute things and do things that were pretty. I was told by my own therapist and my own parents that the only way to make the bullying stop was to basically fight back. To become just as uncaring and cold-hearted as them.

Had to watch in agony as my stupid peers constantly objectified women, rated them on scales of "hotness," compared their girlfriends' asses to each-other as if they were freaking trophies to be won, dumped girls for no reason and left them crying and hurting and hating themselves. Hating myself, and hating my gender assignment, for being lumped in together with those stupid uncaring a**holes. Constantly listening to stories of all of the girls they've screwed, constantly listening to stories of their drunken escapades and all of the stupid crap they've done as some sort of proof of their masculinity.

Teased for wearing short shorts. Teased for singing soprano in choir up until age 15. Teased for crossing my legs. Teased for standing with my hands on my hips. Teased for being a "teacher's pet" because I enjoyed talking to the teachers so much.

The message that I constantly got as a young boy was "beat other people up, sing songs about blowing things up, don't give a crap about anyone's feelings, treat women like crap, don't show any emotion whatsoever otherwise you're a "pussy," not having a penis would be the worst thing possible in the world and you'd better rather be dead than be a girl, do a bunch of stupid s*** to prove how reckless and manly you are, and again, don't you dare show any behavior that might be considered feminine, or you're gay, and being gay is the worst thing in the world."

I hate middle school guys. Seriously. I still do. Those first few years of puberty, they seriously contract brain damage. They do stupid s***, they don't care about anyone, and their entire life becomes about proving how manly they are and proving that they're not gay. And for someone like me who got more effeminate as a middle-schooler instead of more masculine, my only options were either to be myself and get beat up and teased and treated like dirt, fight back and hurt them just like they'd hurt me in order to gain respect, or stifle myself and sacrifice my very sense of self, the very things that make me who I am, and show no emotion, no difference, no connection to the world, just to keep people from picking on me.

I chose the later. It was easier. I nearly destroyed my academic career because I spent every hour of every day hating being a guy, wishing I could be free from this masculine prison and just be myself, but feeling trapped because I had no option but hide or face torment. And I'd wish I could cry. But over time, I forgot how. I couldn't even cry at my own grandparents' funerals. And I felt completely awful, and completely empty. An emotional being trapped in an existence that constantly forced me to "man up" and to not be hurt by all of the things that were hurting me.

Wishing that I could have friends to talk to... wishing that I could just have a shoulder to cry on, someone to vent all of my feelings to. But none of my male friends ever wanted to talk. Because they were constantly caught up in their own little worlds, only interested in playing games all the time, only interested in superficial interests that we had in common. There was never an emotional connection. And once we stopped both liking those same games, we had nothing to talk about anymore. And every girl assuming that all I wanted was sex, even though all I wanted was a best female friend that I could talk to again, like I'd had as a kid.

Lost... lonely... friendless despite being surrounded by friends... stifled... emotionless.

Yup 95% of that was me too. Just not as severe.
By about three years ago (a year before I started to consider I was trans) I would publicly admit to people I knew that I hated the entire male population (including myself)

I think that hatred is beginning to fade now that I have come to terms with myself. But it shows how male socialized I was that I even couldn't stand myself.

Quote from: katiej on April 17, 2014, 11:17:45 PM

So much of socializing as a guy is about ripping on your friends.  It's funny.  I will miss that.  Guys are better behaved around women.  Another thing I will miss after transition is playing poker with the guys and smoking cigars.  I'll probably still enjoy cigars, but won't be in their club anymore.  But on the bright side, I'll be part of the club I've wanted to be in my whole life.

Hmm, yeah, I never really understood why guys do this. I always take it too seriously and get hurt when my bf takes shots at me. But at least when it's flirty I can sort of get it. As a boy it would just feel hurtful...

Quote from: katiej on April 17, 2014, 11:17:45 PM
I grew up in private schools, where bullying wasn't quite the issue it is in other schools.  And I haven't had the same trouble with socializing as a guy as most trans girls have, but it still never really feels like I'm fully accepted.  In a group I can blend in, but the one on one interaction isn't quite there.

I learned early on to push my feelings down and try hard not to be feminine.  I wanted to be around the girls, but knew what the effect would be.  I still deal with this in guy mode.  I'd love to compliment a co-worker or friend on her cute outfit/hair/earrings, but I know it would be weird for a guy to even notice those things.  Yesterday one of the admin assistants came into my office and she was wearing the cutest polka dot pants, but I had to pretend I didn't notice.  So there's the constant pressure of performing the male role...I can't wait to be free of that.

Awww.. maybe it's not easy but, I wouldn't really worry about this. Girls are probably more open minded than you think. You know how girls dress for other girls because guys can't appreciate it anyway? Well, I think guys feel like they have to look cool to other guys, and i'm sure that's because of socialization. Girls don't usually care about this unless he's on the radar. i mean, you still have to get along and be friendable, but my experience as a boy has always been that other girls think it's really cool to meet a guy they have a lot in common with. I'd love to meet a guy friend like that too it just hasn't happened as of yet. Maybe being openly gay makes it easier though... not sure. I mean I know I would feel a little more relaxed knowing he was gay since there's no worry of hidden sexual attraction.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 17, 2014, 11:26:36 PM
Teased constantly. Called names constantly. Called "gay" constantly, called a "->-bleeped-<-got" even on a few occasions. Laughed at when I cried, and told to grow up or "man up." Not allowed to express my side that longed to squee at cute things and do things that were pretty. I was told by my own therapist and my own parents that the only way to make the bullying stop was to basically fight back. To become just as uncaring and cold-hearted as them.

Had to watch in agony as my stupid peers constantly objectified women, rated them on scales of "hotness," compared their girlfriends' asses to each-other as if they were freaking trophies to be won, dumped girls for no reason and left them crying and hurting and hating themselves. Hating myself, and hating my gender assignment, for being lumped in together with those stupid uncaring a**holes. Constantly listening to stories of all of the girls they've screwed, constantly listening to stories of their drunken escapades and all of the stupid crap they've done as some sort of proof of their masculinity.

Teased for wearing short shorts. Teased for singing soprano in choir up until age 15. Teased for crossing my legs. Teased for standing with my hands on my hips. Teased for being a "teacher's pet" because I enjoyed talking to the teachers so much.

The message that I constantly got as a young boy was "beat other people up, sing songs about blowing things up, don't give a crap about anyone's feelings, treat women like crap, don't show any emotion whatsoever otherwise you're a "pussy," not having a penis would be the worst thing possible in the world and you'd better rather be dead than be a girl, do a bunch of stupid s*** to prove how reckless and manly you are, and again, don't you dare show any behavior that might be considered feminine, or you're gay, and being gay is the worst thing in the world."

I hate middle school guys. Seriously. I still do. Those first few years of puberty, they seriously contract brain damage. They do stupid s***, they don't care about anyone, and their entire life becomes about proving how manly they are and proving that they're not gay. And for someone like me who got more effeminate as a middle-schooler instead of more masculine, my only options were either to be myself and get beat up and teased and treated like dirt, fight back and hurt them just like they'd hurt me in order to gain respect, or stifle myself and sacrifice my very sense of self, the very things that make me who I am, and show no emotion, no difference, no connection to the world, just to keep people from picking on me.

I chose the later. It was easier. I nearly destroyed my academic career because I spent every hour of every day hating being a guy, wishing I could be free from this masculine prison and just be myself, but feeling trapped because I had no option but hide or face torment. And I'd wish I could cry. But over time, I forgot how. I couldn't even cry at my own grandparents' funerals. And I felt completely awful, and completely empty. An emotional being trapped in an existence that constantly forced me to "man up" and to not be hurt by all of the things that were hurting me.

Wishing that I could have friends to talk to... wishing that I could just have a shoulder to cry on, someone to vent all of my feelings to. But none of my male friends ever wanted to talk. Because they were constantly caught up in their own little worlds, only interested in playing games all the time, only interested in superficial interests that we had in common. There was never an emotional connection. And once we stopped both liking those same games, we had nothing to talk about anymore. And every girl assuming that all I wanted was sex, even though all I wanted was a best female friend that I could talk to again, like I'd had as a kid.

Lost... lonely... friendless despite being surrounded by friends... stifled... emotionless.

Thanks for sharing Carrie.

Again your post makes me wonder about the female friend thing. I wonder if sexuality is the reason some of yall found it hard to have female friends. I guess guys are stereotyped if they are straight, or really just if they are assumed to be, and it's not always fair to them. Since to be fair, guys are demonized over their sexuality and assigned a predatory status. And i feel bad, because even I'm guilty of this. When a guy is obviously gay I feel immediately more comfortable than if he might be or is straight. I'm not sure how to fix that.

I do remember when i was flying across the country basically the day before I transitioned, (cuz I didn't feel safe transitioning while living with family) I had to wear male clothes (though pretty preppy) still since my family was sending me off and my sister was driving me to the airport. I did pass as male at the airport and I felt like the girl who sat next to me was giving off weird vibes. I said hi and stuff but she didn't seem to want to talk, or like, wanted not to. I get uncomfortable when someone else seems uncomfortable so it was like, oh god, is she seriously getting weird ideas about me? It always sorta pissed me off if girls assumed off the bat I was attracted to them, i don't know, though i understand it since I live it too , I know what /most/ guys are thinking. Anyway i think it was a 5 hour flight and we didn't talk at all. Though to be fair it was a night flight and we both slept a lot of the way.

Anyway it's just funny to think people would have projected that onto me cuz I went and changed a few hours later and never passed as a boy again and ofc it never happened again. One thing i didn't really like about living as a boy is having to wonder whether other girls got weird ideas about me before they knew me. It just felt weird.

Quote from: sad panda on April 18, 2014, 12:21:21 AM

Again your post makes me wonder about the female friend thing. I wonder if sexuality is the reason some of yall found it hard to have female friends.


I said hi and stuff but she didn't seem to want to talk, or like, wanted not to. I get uncomfortable when someone else seems uncomfortable so it was like, oh god, is she seriously getting weird ideas about me? It always sorta pissed me off if girls assumed off the bat I was attracted to them,

I always felt like this too. That's why I would only ever try to be friends with women who knew that I knew they were in serious relationship and thus could understand that I wanted to be friends and not partners.

For me I was aggressive and driven.  I observed, copied and emulated the strongest males.  I felt lonely but was in fact quite popular.  I felt quite isolated.  I really didn't understand girls and in early puberty became painfully shy and awkward in their company.  In hindsight I suspect that I was terrified that someone would see through my act and find out that I wasn't normal, that I wasn't being true to myself and that I was somehow defective.  I chose the most physical sports and tried to present as the most alpha male that I could.  I was pretty good at it.  I joined the military, played football, excelled at most sports, dressed conservatively, drove fast, partied hard and whenever the dysphoria raised its head I worked twice as hard to distract myself.  This worked for a very long time.

For me the above was my norm.  I thought that all males felt the same and that my way of being was normal.  People commented that I didn't seem to fully engage, that I seemed to observe rather than to immerse myself in relationships and conversation.  I was good at intellectual argument but found it difficult to express myself emotionally.  Funnily enough I was fine with girl friends' mothers but often clumsy and forced with their daughter.  I copied all the moves but dating and conversation didn't come naturally or easily.

Many, many years later (post tg diagnosis and low dose hrt) I am a very different person.  Relaxed, empathetic and much closer to women than to men I identify with women rather than men and I am the happiest that I have ever been.

My childhood growing up sucked as far as socialization went. I was kind of internally homophobic at the time so I pretty much hated everything about myself as well. I had no friends for the most part and when I did make male friends I did not treat them like friends, but more like guys who I wanted to be my boyfriends. I got a long with girls, but not as well as i do now because I could not be as free as i am. Still, I knew I did not fit in the the guys. They were rough and always seemed to have something to prove to each other. I never got the guy talk either and when I tried to pretend to be a cis straight guy it failed because I am so feminine and I like guys. I realized very early that not liking girls was really hard to hide because they would ask me what I liked in girls and I would be like their personality or something. I mean I still don't get gays that well and it sucks because I really want to understand them.

i was never really social with males, i was always very shy and reserved. I always related better with girls and when i was small i was told i must play with the boys, so i preferred being on my own and started wearing pantyhose to try to relate to myself.. the female side at the age of 14. i only realized i was a woman at 19, and then embraced myself

now as a post-op transsexual i the exact opposite to that child. I am outgoing, love socializing and I am one of the girls.

In primary school the boys and girls were segregated in the playground...made it really hard to mix with girls. I had to go to a boys high school...

Generally my male friends were the quiet, bookish types. I was always aware there were social penalties for not acting like a boy so I learned the absolute bare minimum I had to pretend to conform to when in public. I'm sure my persona was fairly bland or peculiar but it stopped me from being beaten up or teased. During those years I looked forward to getting home and retreating to my room so I didn't have to pretend to be anything. I was always a bit of a loner, didn't come out of my shell until third year at university...and guess what, 85% of my friends were lovely, loud, fun and intelligent women.

Quote from: sad panda on April 18, 2014, 12:21:21 AM
Again your post makes me wonder about the female friend thing. I wonder if sexuality is the reason some of yall found it hard to have female friends. I guess guys are stereotyped if they are straight, or really just if they are assumed to be, and it's not always fair to them. Since to be fair, guys are demonized over their sexuality and assigned a predatory status. And i feel bad, because even I'm guilty of this. When a guy is obviously gay I feel immediately more comfortable than if he might be or is straight. I'm not sure how to fix that.

I do remember when i was flying across the country basically the day before I transitioned, (cuz I didn't feel safe transitioning while living with family) I had to wear male clothes (though pretty preppy) still since my family was sending me off and my sister was driving me to the airport. I did pass as male at the airport and I felt like the girl who sat next to me was giving off weird vibes. I said hi and stuff but she didn't seem to want to talk, or like, wanted not to. I get uncomfortable when someone else seems uncomfortable so it was like, oh god, is she seriously getting weird ideas about me? It always sorta pissed me off if girls assumed off the bat I was attracted to them, i don't know, though i understand it since I live it too , I know what /most/ guys are thinking. Anyway i think it was a 5 hour flight and we didn't talk at all. Though to be fair it was a night flight and we both slept a lot of the way.

Anyway it's just funny to think people would have projected that onto me cuz I went and changed a few hours later and never passed as a boy again and ofc it never happened again. One thing i didn't really like about living as a boy is having to wonder whether other girls got weird ideas about me before they knew me. It just felt weird.

Yep... that was pretty much it. I had NO problems whatsoever making female friends before puberty hit. In fact, my best friends were girls all the way from preschool up through 6th grade. But then in 7th grade I moved to a new school, and none of the girls knew me, and the complication of puberty and romantic attraction were thrown in to the mix. And so every single school year after that, I had NO ONE to talk to, because none of the guys were on the same level as me in terms of social connections. I used to talk about EVERYTHING with my best female friends. But none of my male friends wanted to talk, they just wanted to play games all the time. But I couldn't just be friends with a girl, because they weren't used to the concept of there being a "straight" guy who just wanted to be friends. Every single time I talked to them, they gave me this cold standoffish treatment where they kept their distance as if they were sure that there had to be some sort of relational motive involved, so don't trust him, don't let him get too close.

It's telling that the only times in high school that I was ever happy were the two semesters when I had girlfriends. And when I say "girlfriend," I mean a girl who assumed that we were looking into a relationship, and thus she let me in and let me talk to her, although in retrospect I never had any serious "love" feelings, and spent the entire time that I knew both of them doing nothing but talking. And I was also able to survive college because I finally got a steady girlfriend, and had a girl that I could talk to, vent to, share feelings with, on the phone every other night. And ironically, in all of these cases, it was the girls who were pressing me into romantic things.

So yeah... I just do NOT do well in my life during times where I don't have any female friends to talk to. Guys just do not talk. Even the nice guys at social gatherings seem more interested in playing games together than making actual emotional social connections, and the non-nice guys are more interested in proving their manliness and ripping on each-other, which to me feels more like competition that even liking the people there.

Male socialization always confounded me, and still does. In school, I always had drama with my male friends... teasing, friendships breaking up and re-forming over hurt feelings, being made fun of even by my so-called "friends." Where with every single one of my female friends, no drama whatsoever. We were like two peas in a pod, almost never argued, and just had fun.

I am SO glad that that stigma is gone now. Women giving me that "girl talk" treatment where they open up and talk with me in a comfortable manner, without that same nervous standoffish treatment that they give to men, has seriously been one of the best parts of transition. I FINALLY feel emotionally connected to the world again.

I found it really difficult to keep freindships, as I never had the confidence to really make real strong freindships! I always felt different!! Fortunately for me I was good at sports and enjoyed football, so I wasnt really bullied and beaten up!! However I was seen as someone eho was soft, and was seen as a wuss! But I think my love of sports made it a lot easier to hide being trans!!

When I went to uni though this was when I started to find it really difficult to make freinds! I did civil enginering and didnt really go out with the guys on the course!! I think that it was this time that I really camr to terms with not wanting to be male!! I lived in a house of girls, and longed to be seen as one of the girls!!

Now im out, and many of my freinds know about zoe, im finding ig so much easier to make freinds! I think yhis is down to having a lot more motivation, and being able to do activities I really want to do! I go to many dance classes, and am starting a course in beauty therapy, so am making freinds there!!

There is still a big isdue with confidence though!! But im hoping hormones will help with that!!

Xx