Quote from: Abbyxo on April 17, 2014, 02:24:08 AM
What was her vow? "I take this man to be my lawfully wedded hussband" right? You pledged yourselves to each other as man and woman, and that comes with responsibility, imo. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to express your femininity...ughh, I'm with Sad Panda on this, these threads, I feel badd.

If my dad transitioned I probably would never talk to him again, I just couldn't. Id want him to be happy, but I cpuldnt deal and id be loyal to my mom in that situation. Same goes for any potential BFs. Being ourselves is good, yes, but if you're married and/or have kids you're responsible to someone else. I think if you knew your gender identity at the time it was quite unfair to marry her, but that's my opinion.

I don't judge anyone, but you're asking for our opinions, and while I care about and empathize with your pain your wifes matters too. She's thinking about killing herself. Maybe it's because to her, Sonia is killing the man she loved and married and maybe she doesn't want to live without him.

When you pledge responsibility to someone that means not always knowing what's ahead but being there anyway..the only problem on her end, is she feels like the person she pledged herself to is fading and that she doesn't owe this new one anything. On your end, I think you need to find a compromise you can bth live with.

I'm sorry I can't say "she's a dramatic b-ch" or "she's just selfish" cause I don't believe that at all.

Good luck sug!

I have to totally agree with abby here. It's just totally unfair to expect the wife to go along with such a one sided decision. If she can accept it it's one thing, but you just can't one-sidedly  change the rules of a marriage and expect your significant other to go to full acceptance . I know quite a few that have come to Susan's have this same situation. It's is sad to realize this is who you are later in life after marriage and children , but the reality is you really can't expect others  to go along with it and to me it's totally wrong to put blame  on others for not going along with it. I realize it's terrible to get to this point after commitments are made. I'm in a sense lucky that I never married, I knew I had this situation with myself since birth which probably caused the problem with never finding someone. If you can compromise and find common ground to save the marriage   with help from a therapist that's great  Blame from my perspective is entirely not the path to travel. sorry but like Abby I feel very strong about this being nowhere her fault.

Quote from: Carlita on April 17, 2014, 09:02:10 AM
How can you say that when YOU are transitioning?

How about if your dad grew up in a world that was far less knowledgeable, understanding and tolerant of transsexuals than it is today (and it's not great now, BTW)? How about if everyone he went to for advice told him not to be so crazy, 'Just 'man up' and live life the way you were meant to'? How about if he tried extra-hard to be a good husband and father because he felt so bad about his secret feelings? How about if he tried everything he could think of to 'cure' himself of his oh-so-disgusting, shameful (in other people's eyes) condition? How about if, despite all that, he loved you deeply, had worked hard all his life to provide for you, and would be devastated if you deserted him now, in his hour of need?

Because that's my story. I love my children so, so much. I have done everything I can to make sure that they have never wanted for anything, whether love or money. Now, after decades of struggle, I am having to acknowledge my transsexuality and deal with it.

And if my children decide that they are being disloyal to their mother if they keep loving me, I truly don't know what I will do or how I will survive.

PS: On the subject of the OP - any woman has the right to feel distressed, frightened, angry and confused by her partner's gender dysphoria. It's an incredibly tough issue to deal with as we all know ourselves. But she does not have the right - and nor does anyone else - to threaten to commit suicide. That's the worst kind of emotional blackmail and, frankly, deserves the response, 'Go ahead and jump.'

If you were my dad... I'd honestly find this to be really weird. Maybe you don't get why it's weird because you don't know what it's like for people who would never start a family as a man. I mean, i could never do that. It just doesn't process in my brain. Having a wife? Sleeping with her? Being a father and providing for a family?? No amount of pressure could get me to do that because I just wouldn't want to. That is one role I could never ever see myself in at all, and never ever imagined being in even when people acted like I would someday. It just doesn't process, I just intuitively know that I am absolutely fundamentally not like the people who have wives and father children and provide for their family and nothing could make me that way.

Just sharing how it looks from my perspective though... I fel like older transitioners act like everyone would do the same thing as them. But even back then there were trans people.

Sonia:

I agree, the threat of suicide is too extreme. Were it me I would call her out on the emotional blackmail, no one deserves that crap and were it my wife I would have been terribly hurt and disappointed by it. I would let her know that if someone truly loves you then you would expect that they not subject you to that kind of emotional abuse.


In response to some of the others:

My wife and I are coming up on 15 years in July... and we are planning on divorce. I can see how others whom from the outside looking in perceive this as a sad thing. But to me, it is far more sad to continue in an unhealthy relationship where both partners are unhappy and no real compromise can be made. And frankly, it pisses me off when people are so quick to cast judgement because this is something we committed to, basically saying "You made your bed now lay in it." Shaming someone into staying in a broken relationship because they committed to it is not the answer.

What people often don't see is that neither partner is at fault here. She is not wrong for not wanting to be with me as I transition. She isn't a lesbian or bi, and it would be wrong of me to pressure her into staying in the marriage, even if I still see myself as the same person inside. If I did do that then I'd just be shifting all the internal turmoil about living a lie over onto her shoulders. And I love her way too much to make her live with that pain.

And then what about me? Am I at fault? Do you think I really entered into the marriage with the intention of destroying hers and the kids' lives? Does anyone for that matter? For those of us that did marry, our stories vary to some extent, but there are many commonalities. Mostly the societal and religious pressures which were much worse back then than they are today. For me, I was so indoctrinated by religious teachings at the time that I seriously felt that my thoughts about being transgender were sinful and immoral. Hell, at one point I thought I was possessed by an evil spirit. And then the society where I grew up had zero tolerance for this type of thing (I grew up in Provo, Utah, ranked the #1 most conservative city in America). I learned very quickly to keep this hidden. The pressure and dysphoria was immense, I often wonder how I was not suicidal back then, but there has always been a burning desire in me to live, so I just couldn't. I've also always had a burning desire to find a way to be happy. When I married, I sincerely thought that was my answer, that if I could just be with someone who loved me and even have children that loved me then... then I'd finally be happy. And while there were many times where I was happy being with them, I never once had a moment where I was happy with who I was.

What's worse, is that I've realized that my unhappiness is affecting everyone in my family. My wife doubts her self image, she has low self-esteem often because I don't want to be intimate (sex) with her. Even before I came out to her back in '07 she would still pick up on the distance between us and blame it on herself. I try to reassure her and tell her I love her and that she's beautiful, but often it falls on deaf ears. I can't count the number of times I've heard her putting herself down or stating that I don't love her or no one loves her, that she's ugly, fat, etc. That kind of negativity is demoralizing, and I can't help but feel somewhat responsible because of my own dysphoria which is getting in the way of me fully providing her with the attention and affection she needs. And then the kids, well they pick up on that negativity too, especially when it often means mom is yelling at them over little things that are almost inconsequential. So here I am looking at all the negativity going on in my family and realizing that a good part of it stems from my own self-loathing and dysphoria, which is getting in the way of loving and appreciating those I care about.


Unfortunately I've awoken to the realization that my unhappiness is affecting everyone else around me far too late. I've already built this life together with my wife, and it isn't all bad, but it is far from great. We do love each other very much, and we both love our children, but our relationship is broken at a fundamental level. Counselling, couples therapy, none of that will fix it. There are no compromises that can be made without sacrificing the self happiness of either her or myself. As this is the case, ours is a situation where we are both better off separating and rebuilding our lives in the aftermath. It will be painful for all involved, but given time and love I think we will all make it through it and hopefully find the happiness we've been looking for.

Quote from: sad panda on April 17, 2014, 12:10:24 PM
If you were my dad... I'd honestly find this to be really weird. Maybe you don't get why it's weird because you don't know what it's like for people who would never start a family as a man. I mean, i could never do that. It just doesn't process in my brain. Having a wife? Sleeping with her? Being a father and providing for a family?? No amount of pressure could get me to do that because I just wouldn't want to. That is one role I could never ever see myself in at all, and never ever imagined being in even when people acted like I would someday. It just doesn't process, I just intuitively know that I am absolutely fundamentally not like the people who have wives and father children and provide for their family and nothing could make me that way.

Just sharing how it looks from my perspective though... I fel like older transitioners act like everyone would do the same thing as them. But even back then there were trans people.

Try stepping outside your own experience, Sad Panda. Imagine other ways of being. There are as many different variations on the theme of being transgender as there are on being 'normal'. Not everyone has that certainty you possess - a certainty I suspect has as much to do with youth as gender/sexuality. Some of us can find a way to cope - at least for a time - as men and that is both an advantage and a curse. We find it easier to be accepted on the outside, but that only makes the contrast with what's going on inside us harder. So we don't have that certainty you take for granted. Our lives are more ambivalent. And if you doubt that we exist, read this wonderful account of the different ways in which gender dysphoria is experienced by MTF transsexuals. It may help you understand ...

http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm

Quote from: Alaia on April 17, 2014, 02:45:00 PM
Sonia:

I agree, the threat of suicide is too extreme. Were it me I would call her out on the emotional blackmail, no one deserves that crap and were it my wife I would have been terribly hurt and disappointed by it. I would let her know that if someone truly loves you then you would expect that they not subject you to that kind of emotional abuse.


In response to some of the others:

My wife and I are coming up on 15 years in July... and we are planning on divorce. I can see how others whom from the outside looking in perceive this as a sad thing. But to me, it is far more sad to continue in an unhealthy relationship where both partners are unhappy and no real compromise can be made. And frankly, it pisses me off when people are so quick to cast judgement because this is something we committed to, basically saying "You made your bed now lay in it." Shaming someone into staying in a broken relationship because they committed to it is not the answer.

What people often don't see is that neither partner is at fault here. She is not wrong for not wanting to be with me as I transition. She isn't a lesbian or bi, and it would be wrong of me to pressure her into staying in the marriage, even if I still see myself as the same person inside. If I did do that then I'd just be shifting all the internal turmoil about living a lie over onto her shoulders. And I love her way too much to make her live with that pain.

And then what about me? Am I at fault? Do you think I really entered into the marriage with the intention of destroying hers and the kids' lives? Does anyone for that matter? For those of us that did marry, our stories vary to some extent, but there are many commonalities. Mostly the societal and religious pressures which were much worse back then than they are today. For me, I was so indoctrinated by religious teachings at the time that I seriously felt that my thoughts about being transgender were sinful and immoral. Hell, at one point I thought I was possessed by an evil spirit. And then the society where I grew up had zero tolerance for this type of thing (I grew up in Provo, Utah, ranked the #1 most conservative city in America). I learned very quickly to keep this hidden. The pressure and dysphoria was immense, I often wonder how I was not suicidal back then, but there has always been a burning desire in me to live, so I just couldn't. I've also always had a burning desire to find a way to be happy. When I married, I sincerely thought that was my answer, that if I could just be with someone who loved me and even have children that loved me then... then I'd finally be happy. And while there were many times where I was happy being with them, I never once had a moment where I was happy with who I was.

What's worse, is that I've realized that my unhappiness is affecting everyone in my family. My wife doubts her self image, she has low self-esteem often because I don't want to be intimate (sex) with her. Even before I came out to her back in '07 she would still pick up on the distance between us and blame it on herself. I try to reassure her and tell her I love her and that she's beautiful, but often it falls on deaf ears. I can't count the number of times I've heard her putting herself down or stating that I don't love her or no one loves her, that she's ugly, fat, etc. That kind of negativity is demoralizing, and I can't help but feel somewhat responsible because of my own dysphoria which is getting in the way of me fully providing her with the attention and affection she needs. And then the kids, well they pick up on that negativity too, especially when it often means mom is yelling at them over little things that are almost inconsequential. So here I am looking at all the negativity going on in my family and realizing that a good part of it stems from my own self-loathing and dysphoria, which is getting in the way of loving and appreciating those I care about.


Unfortunately I've awoken to the realization that my unhappiness is affecting everyone else around me far too late. I've already built this life together with my wife, and it isn't all bad, but it is far from great. We do love each other very much, and we both love our children, but our relationship is broken at a fundamental level. Counselling, couples therapy, none of that will fix it. There are no compromises that can be made without sacrificing the self happiness of either her or myself. As this is the case, ours is a situation where we are both better off separating and rebuilding our lives in the aftermath. It will be painful for all involved, but given time and love I think we will all make it through it and hopefully find the happiness we've been looking for.

Well said. And beautifully said, too. I wish you and your wife all the luck in the world and hope that you can both, in time find happiness and fulfilment.

Quote from: Alaia on April 17, 2014, 02:45:00 PM
My wife and I are coming up on 15 years in July... and we are planning on divorce. I can see how others whom from the outside looking in perceive this as a sad thing. But to me, it is far more sad to continue in an unhealthy relationship where both partners are unhappy and no real compromise can be made. And frankly, it pisses me off when people are so quick to cast judgement because this is something we committed to, basically saying "You made your bed now lay in it." Shaming someone into staying in a broken relationship because they committed to it is not the answer.

What people often don't see is that neither partner is at fault here. She is not wrong for not wanting to be with me as I transition. She isn't a lesbian or bi, and it would be wrong of me to pressure her into staying in the marriage, even if I still see myself as the same person inside. If I did do that then I'd just be shifting all the internal turmoil about living a lie over onto her shoulders. And I love her way too much to make her live with that pain.

I want to give my opinion without being hurtful. I really want to. I don't like to say hurtful things. I don't like to make people feel bad. I generally will do anything I can to avoid making people feel bad but i do want to give my opinion because i feel like peoeple in your position don't always understand.

Because honestly you can't pin the entire problem on being trans. This isn't really a trans narrative... for the most part it is an MTF narrative. This happens sometimes with FTMs, but it is an exception. With MTFs it feels closer to a rule. It happens almost every day here. And it wouldn't have quite the same power over a cis man's life anyway, so the context makes it feel like an MTF issue that much more.

...I feel like you don't understand exactly what it feels like to a cis woman. You have lived a very different life. Women experience relationships differently than men, and you took the male role. This isn't always true but honestly 99% of the time it is... when a woman is really in love, it is the strongest priority in her life. It is self-abandoning on so many levels. It's intense and absorbing. It becomes the biggest thing in her life. Women are bred for marriage. Women are bred to be man-obsessed. women grow up dreaming about their wedding dress more than what job they will have. It's a fundamental part of the identity of so many women, and when you get married and have kids as a woman, you really give up most of who you are on your own. That is absolved into the role of wife and mother. Wives and mothers are notoriously undervalued. They give so much of themselves for that basic happiness. They get into it often not really able to think about the future, just the feelings right now. Just how much they love this man. And then she waits for him to propose. It's really all at his leisure. He still prioritizes his future, his career, he doesn't take much of a hit to his viability.

And again, it's sort of stereotyping but most of the time it really is the truth. Love is just more personal for women. Men are not firstly warm bodies to women like it can be the other way around. Women value honesty so much because if you lie to a woman in a relationship, you're basically messing with her identity. With how she feels about her life. Women need that honesty and they so often do not get it. They are forced to jump in blindly and trust their partner who risks very little of himself by dating or marrying her.

I know that even for the man it's not perfect. Nobody has a crystal ball. But if you understand the weight of this stuff for a woman, you would tell her as soon as you possibly could that you don't know if you can be a man for her. Ideally before marrying, having kids, anything like that. It's just not fair to be blindsided by something like this.It will never be fair.

QuoteAnd then what about me? Am I at fault? Do you think I really entered into the marriage with the intention of destroying hers and the kids' lives? Does anyone for that matter? For those of us that did marry, our stories vary to some extent, but there are many commonalities. Mostly the societal and religious pressures which were much worse back then than they are today. For me, I was so indoctrinated by religious teachings at the time that I seriously felt that my thoughts about being transgender were sinful and immoral. Hell, at one point I thought I was possessed by an evil spirit. And then the society where I grew up had zero tolerance for this type of thing (I grew up in Provo, Utah, ranked the #1 most conservative city in America). I learned very quickly to keep this hidden. The pressure and dysphoria was immense, I often wonder how I was not suicidal back then, but there has always been a burning desire in me to live, so I just couldn't. I've also always had a burning desire to find a way to be happy. When I married, I sincerely thought that was my answer, that if I could just be with someone who loved me and even have children that loved me then... then I'd finally be happy. And while there were many times where I was happy being with them, I never once had a moment where I was happy with who I was.

All you had to do was tell your wife that you didn't know if you could handle being a man forever. You say you stifled these feelings but keeping those from her is just so... ugh. I don't think there is an excuse. At all.

QuoteWhat's worse, is that I've realized that my unhappiness is affecting everyone in my family. My wife doubts her self image, she has low self-esteem often because I don't want to be intimate (sex) with her. Even before I came out to her back in '07 she would still pick up on the distance between us and blame it on herself. I try to reassure her and tell her I love her and that she's beautiful, but often it falls on deaf ears. I can't count the number of times I've heard her putting herself down or stating that I don't love her or no one loves her, that she's ugly, fat, etc. That kind of negativity is demoralizing, and I can't help but feel somewhat responsible because of my own dysphoria which is getting in the way of me fully providing her with the attention and affection she needs. And then the kids, well they pick up on that negativity too, especially when it often means mom is yelling at them over little things that are almost inconsequential. So here I am looking at all the negativity going on in my family and realizing that a good part of it stems from my own self-loathing and dysphoria, which is getting in the way of loving and appreciating those I care about.

News flash, but most women suffer from thise issues. It's because they aren't raised into a sense of self worth. To value themselves. It's because they so often have nothing without somebody to value them. Society gives them nothing. When all you really want is to feel loved, you are terrified of losing that. Because you ask yourself, what's keeping him here? I can't possess him. I can't do anything to make him stay. Again, all I'm hearing is a relationship that shouldn't have been.

QuoteUnfortunately I've awoken to the realization that my unhappiness is affecting everyone else around me far too late. I've already built this life together with my wife, and it isn't all bad, but it is far from great. We do love each other very much, and we both love our children, but our relationship is broken at a fundamental level. Counselling, couples therapy, none of that will fix it. There are no compromises that can be made without sacrificing the self happiness of either her or myself. As this is the case, ours is a situation where we are both better off separating and rebuilding our lives in the aftermath. It will be painful for all involved, but given time and love I think we will all make it through it and hopefully find the happiness we've been looking for.

The common thread when this happens though, is relationship or transition. The SOs would usually stay if the MTF could just continue being their man, cause again, they have no real power in this relationship.. All i can say is it must be nice having a life to start after your relationship. Not having your whole self invested in it. Not having given up so many possibilities for your future over it. I just don't understand how someone who experienced that can say they feel like other women or they know what it's like to be a woman.

I'm trying to understand but I don't. I would never, ever do this to somebody. Because i know how it would feel if it was done to me. i'd want to die too. That's what love means to me. And there's nothing I can do as a girl to avoid giving too much of my life to a man who maybe only wants me for my body. Who maybe is hiding things from me. how can I know? He can change whenever and move on. The world is his. He doesn't have to care about me like i can't help caring about him.

It's sad, I was watching a show called who the bleep did i marry. I swear, you never know who your man is gonna turn out to be. The lady in one episode married a man who was secretly a cuban spy. He basically just used her to blend in as an american family man for 4 years. After it all came out, she sued the cuban government for rape and won. It wasn't consensual because he was lying to her and using her. I'm sure it wasn't satisfying anyway but that's what it seems like to me, life rape. That's how bad it hurts a woman if you marry her under a false pretext. Cuz she's powerless. He holds a power she never will because it just means more to her than him. It is her, to a degree.

Go ahead, defend how you feel, i mean MTFs always do that. Always couldn't be prevented, It's always oh so hard for them, but the reality is that they're gonna move on and get over it. All I can say is... Thank god you're not straight and you don't have to worry about this happening to you. Cuz chances are a woman wouldn't do this to you. And even if she did I don't think it would hurt you the same way. That's why it's hard to have the level of empathy you people demand. As much as I want to make everyone feel good the whole thing just is gross to me and i cannot bring myself to understand it.



You took my heart and you held it in your mouth
And with a word all my love came rushing out
And every whisper, it's the worst,
Emptied out by a single word
There is a hollow in me now

So I put my faith in something unknown
I'm living on such sweet nothing
But I'm tired of hope with nothing to hold
I'm living on such sweet nothing

And it's hard to learn
And it's hard to love
When you're giving me such sweet nothing
Sweet nothing, sweet nothing
You're giving me such sweet nothing

It isn't easy for me to let it go
Cause I've swallowed every single word
And every whisper, every sigh
Eats away this heart of mine
And there is a hollow in me now

So I put my faith in something unknown
I'm living on such sweet nothing
But I'm tired of hope with nothing to hold
I'm living on such sweet nothing

And it's hard to learn
And it's hard to love
When you're giving me such sweet nothing
Sweet nothing, sweet nothing
You're giving me such sweet nothing

And it's not enough to tell me that you care
When we both know the words are empty air
You give me nothing

Alaia

Agree so closely with your thoughtful comments.  Sonia and Carlita I hurt for you both.  Your experiences resonate with so many of mine.

Sad Panda I respect your views on so many topics but on this one I think that my life experience and age has given me a different experience, understanding, set of options and perspective.  If I was starting out afresh and knowing what I now know I suspect my perspective would be much more similar to yours. This perspective does appear to be age related. 

To explain I knew that something didn't feel quite right from a very early age.  If I suspected anything it was that I was deviant or damaged, a paraphiliac if you like.  I tried everything to distract myself and to convince myself that it was a phase, a kink that I could deny etc and it worked until 1993 when In desperation I shared this with my wife.  Having 2 young children and being much in love she encouraged me to seek help rather than to separate.  In 1993 'help' was a physical assessment of being likely to 'pass'.   Being large and athletic the 'professional' view was that I could never successfully transition.  Say what - I hadn't even understood that this had been a potential  'treatment' option.

Fast forward 6 years and cross dressing/dysphoria was never far from my mind.  Found a counsellor who recommended cross dressing to relieve the stress.  Did this off and on for a further 9 or 10 years together with forced fem and s&m ..  Seemed to help.  Reaching a crisis point in late 2009 I reached out yo a gender therapist.  She proved to be a real life saver.   Diagnosis, understanding and self acceptance of being tg was followed by low dose hrt and ffs with the start of hair removal.  Separated from my wife for extended periods afforded the time and opportunity to explore this.   Still deeply ashamed I kept the latest diagnosis and treatment to myself.. Not a good move.  Again tried to stop treatment and to deny my tg nature so stopped hrt

2011 arrived as did another crisis.  Started with multiple counsel lord and therapists then a psychiatrist and a tg diagnosis was again confirmed.  Restarted treatment.  Then a new counsellor called me out for my dishonesty - she accused me of being dishonest with myself and with my wife.   I was affronted, angry, in denial and then realised that she was right.

I told my wife everything.   She was hurt but understanding.  She supported low dose hrt and therapy but sought certainty for her and for us.  I could not provide this.  Low dose hrt really worked for me.  My wife became increasingly stressed, withdrawn and insistent on certainty re my end point as she could not present as a lesbian and find not want to be the subject of ridicule or of pity.  In parallel I tried to reduce dosages with my endos assistance but kept coming back to a low dose of AA and E.  Physical change followed - too fast for myself, never mind for my wife.  A bilateral breast reduction followed. 

Fast forward to March 2014 - after months of therapy I realised that I was entitled to respect and to a relationship where I did not feel unloved, disrespected and unsupported.   Indeed that I was not just on this planet to serve others and to meet their needs and expectations of me.  I said that we should discuss separation as we could not continue to live this way.  In tears my wife asked for a second chance and then thanked me for causing her to really, really consider just what was most important to her and that she wanted us to survive as partners. 

While it is still early days our relationship is much better, my move to more androgyny continues with the unavoidable hair removal but there is no compulsion to cross dress and the dysphoria has disappeared.  I acknowledge, if not celebrate my nature as tg and have 'come out' to many friends and colleagues.  Am
I likely to fully transition - I don't think so.  Do I feel inhibited from choosing the best path for me - no.  Will my tg eventually lead to my loss of my wife - I don't know and genuinely hope to avoid this.  But I don't know and in spite of this I have resolved to make a conscious choice to be gully present, author my life experience and move down the path which I select.  After 56 years I am no longer ashamed, no longer living with incessant noise in my head, no longer impersonating the ideal male, bread winner and father.   I am learning who I am and learning to express and to live this fully in each day of my life.

I apologise for the essay but thought it may help explain why different generations may view things quite differently.   Neither are wrong and neither should be judgmental and assume their world view is the most reasonable.

Safe travels

Aisla

Sad Panda

This will teach me to 'post' while another post arrives.  Your last post is as beautiful as it is powerful.  I really feel the power of what you are saying and you are right, entirely right.

However as a male and whether or not I were an undiagnosed transgender my narrative and perspective  is different to yours and to that of other genetic females.  I believe that my narrative and perspective is equally valid and therefore equally deserving of respect.

In marriage what we appear to have is a coming together of 2 folk who typically, early in their lives,acknowledge their love and in good conscience pledge their lives and commitment to each other.  Each brings their biologically driven behavior, their family experience, ambitions, romantic dreams and broader life experience together with an emerging and I would argue immature or still embryonic understanding of themselves, of their new partner and of possibility.  Experience follows, change results.  Relationships flourish, they wax and they wane.  Biology promotes focus on family and over time hormones change and priorities are reset and dreams re calibrated.

Your quite inspiring description of what it means to be female is powerful.   This does not however invalidate or diminish what it is to be male.   To be strong, to provide, to protect, to love, to subjugate your own needs for those of the family are equally powerful drivers  for the male.  It's not that being tg mtf causes us to not appreciate our partner's position but rather that we have given everything  in their and in our family's support without pausing to consider our needs or our identity much less to express same, even if we had the skills and socialisation to do so. 

When we discover that what we thought was a minor kink is in fact something far more serious it is as disruptive to us as it is to our partner.  Just as discovering that a 'lump' is not benign but is in fact a serious cancer does disrupt relationships and resets dreams and behaviours, being diagnosed and understanding that you are at least MTA or GQ rather than MTF is similarly if not more disruptive. 

From my vantage point I think that your perspective and my perspective are equally valid.  I think that we can and should respect and accept each other's insight and opinions.  The upshot is that no one is completely right and no one is completely wrong.  There is undeniable hurt, disbelief and anger or betrayal felt when anyone's expectations or dreams are unmet or indeed shattered.  All we can ask for is that we respect and honour the other and with love craft the best way forward for us as individuals and for us as 2 people who expected, gave and shared so much.


Aisla

This is a pretty powerful thread.  Thank you to everyone.  Sad Panda thank you for the poem  it speaks volumes.  I also appreciate your connection with the cis partner's point of view.  There isn't any scenario, that I can think of where a normal, heterosexual woman can get her partner's transition.  It is really beyond the pale
It is also true that when I was growing up, being a girl in a boys body was so far out of acceptable standards that, for me at least, it was unthinkable.  It remained so for decades, until I finally had to make a choice - and I chose life.  That doesn't mitigate the unspeakable pain that I have caused a woman who loved me.  I have to own that, and do whatever I can to make her transition to a new life tolerable.  Yes, for most of us who "did what a man does" got married, raised families and finally had to choose between psychic death or authenticity there is divorce and horrible guilt.  I own it. I largely caused it, and it is existential.  Shall I die?  Will she kill me?  Am I killing her?  Without help and guidance this will destroy me, our love, and maybe her too.
Donna has threatened to harm herself, threatened to harm me, threatened to try to destroy my life.  She is dealing with duality - Doug/Julie and Julie/Doug.  I look more like a woman than a man, except when I don't.  I act more like a woman than a man except when I don't.  How can I expect her to come to resolution when it is tough for me?
I love her, respect her, and wish her joy.  I stand in the way of that because yes, she is more vested in relationship - any relationship, than I can even understand.  I am trained in engineering and science, my thinking and problem solving is rational and linear.  Still pretty male actually.  She is a woman, always has been, always will be.  Is so by socialization, and by temperament.
Am I just a selfish jerk?  I hope not, but there is a realization that for me, becoming Julie is very much like falling in love and revisiting puberty.  The best I can hope for is to listen to her, and not try to fix anything. Just to listen and release.  This is the hardest thing I have ever done.  I think it is the hardest thing for both of us.  Thank you for letting me share, I don't know apriori if the meaning is clear, but the emotion is real and true.

Blessings,
Julie

For what it's worth, I have never made any attempt to live as a woman because I always valued the family and my marriage that I actually had, more highly than the life I might have if I transitioned, no matter how strong that dream might have been. (Not that I knew the word 'transition' in this context back then). Since I came out to my wife, which was several years ago - basically as soon as I really understood the true nature of my dysphoria - I have always been clear that my position is the same: my marriage and my family come first. God knows there have been times when I have come very close to transitioning - and have said as much here - but in the end, my love for my family has always won out. She, however, is leaving me - not the other way around. I guess the possibility that I MIGHT transition one day has become too much for her to bear. So I will be alone. What happens then, I really don't know.

But I always, always put my vows to my wife and my duty to my children first. And it wasn't out of self-sacrifice, or some great, saintly nobility. It was because the thought of losing them was more painful than the thought of never being female. The reality of losing them is more painful too. But what will be, will be.

@aisla -- I'm not trying to guilt trip people and I'm not trying to argue. My post was definitely not an argument. I just sometimes read all these explanations, all these justifications, always the MTF side of the story. Always seeking to be understood and vindicated but never, it feels like, understanding and for once just kinda shutting up and seriously, truly caring. I just wish yall could simply say, I was wrong, I feel really bad about it, I've done everything I can to make it up to her while dealing with the reality. The wives don't get nearly enough respect. They're belittled and trashed all the time here for not understanding. For not being perfect completely selfless angels about every last thing, for not putting up with every abuse. And it just bugs me. Especially when the people saying those things did it to their own wives too. Not that I'm blaming you specifically or naming names, it's just something I see pretty often here and it's toxic to me. So thanks for understanding that that is where my post was coming from.

@Carlita well I think that's really responsible of you. Sometimes it is just not worth it, the world doesn't always allow for having everything... I'm glad that somebody can consider and appreciate that. Still, of course, I don't blame her for leaving because coming out that you are trans definitely alters what your vows meant to begin with.

Sad Panda

No need to be concerned. You meant no offence and no offence was taken. You are right. Often the partner (usually the wife) is demonised rather than fully understood.  I accept that even when you have behaved honestly and authentically that your wife may hurt and feel bitter, angry and betrayed.   These feelings are equally authentic and if both parties have been true to themselves and to each other then they are both right and nobody is at fault.  There isn't an excuse for demonising a partner even though almost every person acts as they think best and at its most basic, people (including you and I) will act to protect themselves.

For a mtf I think that the realisation that they are tg, that they are not broken and that they have found a much better and richer way of being is world changing.  The often accompanying loss of wife, children , assets and other relationships is world shattering.  This is hard to accept emotionally even though it may be understood at an intellectual level.  You feel that you have given everything and finally when a whole and truly fulfilling life beckons, it comes with further pain to and from your most dear relationships.  At this point you wonder why life is so unfair,  why having given so much and having experienced such a hollow life others can't celebrate and share this good fortune with you.

Carlita, my hope is that I am truly MTA or GQ and that I remain this way.  I love my wife and all those closest to me.  I don't wish to hurt or to disappoint anyone.   However growth and change is a consequence of being alive and of being human.  This is essentially what life is about and what it means to live.  I know that I am on a journey and that I may hurt and be hurt as I move forward.  In the end I trust that if I am mindful and respectful then I will own any fall out or damage from my decisions (by definition selfish) and that they will not be the result of casual neglect or anger.

Aisla

Julie

Thank you for sharing your experience.   There is always nuance and every person and their experience is quite unique.  Your insight, understanding and empathy towards your wife is quite amazing.

However, as always, I am comparing your situation and insight gained with mine.  Without wishing to sound inquisitorial were you always aware that you were a woman and did you hide this from your wife before and during a large part of your relationship?  On my side I had no idea that I was F, Q , A or a typical cis male.  All I knew was what I experienced and I thought that this was normal.  I certainly didn't think I was unusual and certainly didn't think that an infrequent urge to cross dress which caused me little pause was likely to be material to my nature and to our relationship.

Now I do understand that ignorance is no excuse but given that there was no intent or ability to deceive I can only conclude that my guilt or culpability grew in parallel with my understanding, insight and increasing dysphoria.   Having disclosed this real time then apart from a period of introspection which I took to absorb and to understand the implications of being diagnosed tg I have been entirely authentic and honest with my wife.

The irony is that this may still be insufficient to keep my marriage and other relationships intact.  I understand this.  I don't blame her.  I know that even if I don't fully transition that I already have and will cause her further stress and hurt but this is the human condition and I can only take responsibility for my actions, not another person's reactions.

I would like everybody to be happy but even if I deny who I am I don't think that this is possible.  Even my demise would not prevent hurt now that the winds of change have risen.

Aisla,

I was so clueless it is kind of sad.  I knew that I was not whole.  I knew that I tried to excel at everything, and be out front, be it climbing mountains, running marathons, scholarship, work - anything to fill an undefinable void.  When I married Donna, which was too fast, too intense, too a lot of things, my daughter asked her if she knew I was a workaholic - she didn't. 

I had witnessed someone close to me transition, and the result for her was at least initially devastating.  I was both a little jealous of her, and appalled by the outcome.  She was a community corrections officer and suffered a lot of persecution.  It only confirmed to myself that while I was pretty codependent and otherwise messed up, I wasn't that.  Cross dressing to me was performance art.  I tried it in my twenties, and since I was hanging around with gays, it didn't click.  I thought that was long ago and far away.  There are lots of diagnoses that we can use to mask the truth, and I was happy to try them all.  It wasn't real and it didn't work.  So no I didn't enter into this relationship at a conscious level disingenuously, I now think that at some level I have always known I was really a girl.

Donna has confided that one of the things that attracted her to me was I was sensitive, appreciated and noticed the feminine, even cried at movies.  As time has passed, my anxiety  only grew, and our marriage became more confrontational.  Two years ago I happened on, I'm not sure what, a book maybe and began to devour information.  Eventually I began HRT and then counseling   (dumb) .  Counseling broke down my fear and made me crave authenticity.

But I have always known what that path would lead to, although I wanted so desperately to  think it might not, that I fooled myself into thinking that maybe somehow it would work out.  It didn't, it is over.  It is on me that our relationship is trashed, but this is without villainy.  I get from where she is coming from.  At least I think I do.  I will do anything I can to help both of us move on, but I still chose life over emptiness, and would do so again.  The wind is indeed up.

Hugs,

Julie

Quote from: Abbyxo on April 17, 2014, 02:24:08 AM
What was her vow? "I take this man to be my lawfully wedded hussband" right? You pledged yourselves to each other as man and woman, and that comes with responsibility, imo. I'm not saying you shouldn't try to express your femininity...ughh, I'm with Sad Panda on this, these threads, I feel badd.

If my dad transitioned I probably would never talk to him again, I just couldn't. Id want him to be happy, but I cpuldnt deal and id be loyal to my mom in that situation. Same goes for any potential BFs. Being ourselves is good, yes, but if you're married and/or have kids you're responsible to someone else. I think if you knew your gender identity at the time it was quite unfair to marry her, but that's my opinion.

I don't judge anyone, but you're asking for our opinions, and while I care about and empathize with your pain your wifes matters too. She's thinking about killing herself. Maybe it's because to her, Sonia is killing the man she loved and married and maybe she doesn't want to live without him.

When you pledge responsibility to someone that means not always knowing what's ahead but being there anyway..the only problem on her end, is she feels like the person she pledged herself to is fading and that she doesn't owe this new one anything. On your end, I think you need to find a compromise you can bth live with.

I'm sorry I can't say "she's a dramatic b-ch" or "she's just selfish" cause I don't believe that at all.

Good luck sug!

This is such BS!! it seems all you young transitioners have all the answers....please tell me what they are, and if you knew then why are you here??

I'm sorry but I don't know what the cure for how I have felt all my life is!!!I also didn't have googles of information to help me. I did immense myself in the libraries many hours searching to find out who I was. I Determined I was transsexual 25 years ago, but again what was the cure. The cure was to transition. A word hardly ever mentioned in all of the information I could gather.

I decided I wanted to be happy and be with someone, that led to having children. The best thing that ever happened in my life. I still struggled with my demons and knew I would end up either killing myself or possibly transition while still married. Fortunately for me (though not at the time) my wife left me, possibly because she knew what was to come.  But now God forbid (ABBY) I have to put my children through this and fear that they may feel the same as you!! (I'm sure they don't though) But if they keep reading stuff like this, they will feel more comfortable not accepting me....hell even a trans girl wouldn't accept her dad if he was transgendered.

I really feel for the OP and in many ways feel it is unfair to her wife or her children....but for God sake did she murder someone? Did she have an affair? Is she some evil person, maybe I don't know? but it isn't because she is trans. Yes, if I had the knowledge and less fear 20 years ago I would of transitioned, I was minutes away from meeting a "true real life transsexual" to start my journey, but instead I decided to fight it for another 20 years. I guess I must be a coward!!!

WHATEVER!!!!!

Children are really amazingly flexible.  My daughter is my strongest advocate, and I am the one she calls to take care of her kids.  Above everything else I have found acceptance in the young.
J

Julie

Thank you for sharing your story and your truth.  I admire your willingness to accept blame for the end of your marriage and for your understanding of your wife's distress but you didn't perpetrate a fraud on her when you married.  Your only failure was to be tg and to be human.  You have handled yourself well and are to be admired.

Shelly

I agree with your view.  Not knowing your nature.  Struggling with it.  Staying with the relationship and denying yourself for years until you break or your children have grown is the most one can do.   Relationships change.  No fault divorce laws exist because society respects and understands that folk sometimes just need to move on.  We may have killed a dream but that is all we have done.  We have not killed anyone and no one says that just because we are tg that we must deny ourselves and put another's dreams and needs ahead of our own for the rest of our life.  Ah to be young and to be wise after the event.

Safe travels

Aisla

Aisla - you are kind, I would rather be an understanding friend, than the subject of admiration.  Talk to you later. 
j

Hugs BeingSonia,

I have heard those words too.

I can relate to your post very closely; I understand her perspective and I took full responsibility for my actions. Your wife echoed my wife's perspective and reactions.

It has been 14 months since I came out to her. We love each other and what seamed 100% going to divorce may be salvageable and I say may depending on the extent of my transition. Perhaps that may become rate of transition over time.

What seamed impossible is becoming achievable because I expanded my reality and took a chance on life.  In the end I may not be married and I was prepared for that when I came out.

If I did not meet my future wife at age 29 I would not have turned 30. I would not have known a great friend and lover (the best I could which was not very good) and my daughter who I adore.

I have had a lot of sex  with guys (enjoyed it very much) but I am with a woman because she is tender, caring and I connect with her (not the sex). I have found sex has little to do with making love (I speak for myself).