Hi everyone,

I'm looking for a surgeon with good reputation, someone that have a long track of good results and happy patients.
What I need is revision rhinoplasty, brow ridge augmentation (to add frontal bossing) and maybe Jaw angle implants.

I live in the middle east so the surgeon doesn't have to be a US one, I'm willing to travel worldwide if I'll find the correct one.

Any recommendations?

Have you been on T for a while?  A lot of times that can help to masculinize, and you may (probably) find that you don't need surgery. 

I don't know of any facial masculinization surgeons, so I can't help you there.  Sorry about that.

Can T actually stimulate bone growth after puberty? Transform a female skull to a man skull?

Everything thing that T does for non transguys does the same for transguys, Because you will go through male puberty

Quote from: Dani20 on April 18, 2014, 03:48:43 PM
Can T actually stimulate bone growth after puberty? Transform a female skull to a man skull?

I'd say yes to bone growth.  I've grown almost an inch in height.  I can't say specifically as to face bones though.  As far ask female/male skulls go there isn't actually too big of a difference there.  It will reshape your face though.  Take a look at some pictures of people throughout their transformation on T.  You'll see that face shape does often change significantly.  I went from having a face people called pretty as a girl to being unclockable.

Try taking a look at a transman pre-T and then again after 3 Years on T.  You'll see what I'm talking about. 

I think thats one of the reasons that there isn't much need for facial masculinization.  Trans ladies, on the other hand, often undergo facial feminization to reverse the effects that T had on their faces during/after their own puberties. 

Firstly, puberty is a time when our bodies are flooded with sex hormones to promote secondary sex characteristics development.  They activate development of body hair (and facial hair in guys) bone growth and development.  Denser bones for guys, larger, more pronounced features, broader shoulders. Less prominent features for girls, wider hips, etc.  Gender specific fat distribution.  Breast for girls.  etc.

HRT is pretty much just this.  Flooding our bodies with sex hormones to promote secondary sex characteristics development.  Testosterone for FtM, Estrogen for MtF.  You'll be going through puberty a second time.  It'll be during puberty again.

HRT can only add, it can't subtract.  Breast growth can't be undone by hormones.  Bone development can't be undone.  You can't undone the wider hips that have developed if you are FtM.  And MtFs can't get hips if they two pelvic bones have fused (around 25)  Prior to that, however MtFs may see some widening of the hips due to estrogen triggering hip widening (started early enough, mtf may get some good hip development).

Lucky for you, testosterone adds bone.  Your features will sharpen, become more pronounced over time.  They will remain your features.  But since the difference between a masculine face and skull and a feminine face and skull is sharper, more prominent features, through bone structure, yes T will masculinize your face naturally.  Bone will be added making features more pronounced.  Once this happens though, it can't  be undone. 

Unfortunately for myself and the other MtFs, estrogen can't remove the bone development that's occurred.  We require surgery to feminize our face, by shaving the bone down, removing parts to contour it. 

Same with facial hair.  T will activate and turn on the follicles of the face, causing them to grow darker and thicker, giving one facial hair.  Once done, this can't be turned off.  So MtFs have to do painful and long laser or electrolysis treatments to kill the follicles and lose the facial hair.  FtMs will start growing facial hair on T, which will not stop growing unless treated with laser or electrolysis treatments even if you stopped taking T.

All you need my friend is HRT and you'll start developing the masculine features.  Like the first time around it'll still take a good while, but it will happen. 

Have you been on T for a while or not? Facial surgery is a bit of a drastic move before considering what will happen with T. Personally, I have a very small head, some would suggest "obviously female sized" and it's never affected me passing. People never realise unless I happen to mention it in my excuse for avoiding hat situations. My face has changed quite a bit with T so far. Your overall skin changes which changes your face shape.

We all tend to overly worry about our own "defects". A good example is I lack a decent chin, and I hate it. I avoid profile photos because of it, and yet if I ever bring it up, people only then notice it. If you're not on T, I'd suggest you wait to see the changes there first. T does amazing things and is way less invasve than cutting into your face.

Quote from: Brandon on April 18, 2014, 04:07:56 PM
Everything thing that T does for non transguys does the same for transguys, Because you will go through male puberty

This isn't actually true unless you block female puberty and go through first puberty with HRT. For the majority of us this is a second puberty so we don't get everything.

Quote from: Jack_M on April 18, 2014, 05:44:49 PM
This isn't actually true unless you block female puberty and go through first puberty with HRT. For the majority of us this is a second puberty so we don't get everything.

It pretty much does and it also depends on just how much estrogen you produce already.

Thanks for your help,

I took a look at the photos people uploaded here, few have a a decent change but most already looked masculine before T (no offense) + it's hard to tell because most of the users took the before and after photos from different angels and lightning, different poses, changed the hair and clothing and some may even had makeup in the before and had plucked their eyebrows.
I only noticed like 3-4 that I would consider a feminine girl before and masculine man after, the others already looked masculine or still looked feminine.
I noticed the facial hair and the the skin texture changes which masculine the face but it's really hard to tell if they had any bone hypertrophy, I think that there is quite a difference between a male and a female skull :


What I have is a female skull that I want to turn into a male skull which would only be achieved throw bone hypertrophy or implants. I think that in order to really look masculine one has to have the big/prominent bones not just the superficial features.

To the guys that wrote they had bone growth and height increase, My age is 24.
At you age did you start T?
How long it took for the growth to accrue?
Did you you took other stuff besides T?
Do you really think that you gained bone mass and not mistaken it for soft tissue changes that accrued due to T + strength training? (less buccal fat, thicker skin and facial muscles etc..)?
Do you really think your body grew taller and not mistaken it for better posture due to strength training + T ?

Dani, if your growth plates in your bones have fused already, you won't grow any taller.  The bones are fused usually by age 25, but that is average, it could be earlier or later.  Before they fuse you might get a bit taller. 

Testosterone continues to make changes to the facial bones all our lives.  So yeah, you will have some masculinizing of the face, and that will continue all your life as long as your on T.  It might be a lot at first, it might not be.  Everyone's different.  But it will happen.

It's also a good idea to note that there isn't a male and female template.  There's just a female template.  We all start life as female.  Then hormones kick in and those coded for female continue to develop as female, those coded for male start to develop as male.  What triggers the division is our genetics activating hormones in the womb.  Males trigger androgen hormones to develop as male.  They also require a specific hormone that kills off the female reproductive system.  The default has us continue to develop into females.

Hormones are what cause us to develop into male or female before birth.  If there is a problem, say like we are immune to androgens (a real condition) we continue to develop as female, though we might be missing a uterus and cervix (killed off by the anti-wolffian hormones)

As babies and children there aren't that many differences between male and female physically, beyond reproductive organs and genitals.  At puberty, a flood of hormones, either testosterone or estrogen matures us into an adult male or an adult female.

All the differences between male and female are caused by hormones.  We all start the same.  These hormones will alter you just like they did for cisboys during puberty.  It can't undo the changes estrogen has caused already but it will give you the changes that testosterone did. 

What testosterone does is increase bone density.  Build up and sharpen features.  That male brow is from testosterone.  That chin and jaw, the prominent bumps and ridges will all develop to a degree.  It won't be as total as if you had gotten it from puberty, and will be a gradual change.  But it will happen and continue to happen.

Estrogen causes minimal bone definition in its changes compared to testosterone.  This is why taking estrogen doesn't undo the masculinizing effects of testosterone.  They do the same thing, just testosterone to the a much much greater degree.    You will gain bone mass and density.  The longer you are on testosterone the more these will be masculinized.

Colleen, everything you've said is such a reassurance. I mean, i knew it couldn't only be fat/muscle changes, there had to be bone change goin on too.   

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on April 18, 2014, 08:54:27 PM
Dani, if your growth plates in your bones have fused already, you won't grow any taller.  The bones are fused usually by age 25, but that is average, it could be earlier or later.  Before they fuse you might get a bit taller. 

Testosterone continues to make changes to the facial bones all our lives.  So yeah, you will have some masculinizing of the face, and that will continue all your life as long as your on T.  It might be a lot at first, it might not be.  Everyone's different.  But it will happen.

It's also a good idea to note that there isn't a male and female template.  There's just a female template.  We all start life as female.  Then hormones kick in and those coded for female continue to develop as female, those coded for male start to develop as male.  What triggers the division is our genetics activating hormones in the womb.  Males trigger androgen hormones to develop as male.  They also require a specific hormone that kills off the female reproductive system.  The default has us continue to develop into females.

Hormones are what cause us to develop into male or female before birth.  If there is a problem, say like we are immune to androgens (a real condition) we continue to develop as female, though we might be missing a uterus and cervix (killed off by the anti-wolffian hormones)

As babies and children there aren't that many differences between male and female physically, beyond reproductive organs and genitals.  At puberty, a flood of hormones, either testosterone or estrogen matures us into an adult male or an adult female.

All the differences between male and female are caused by hormones.  We all start the same.  These hormones will alter you just like they did for cisboys during puberty.  It can't undo the changes estrogen has caused already but it will give you the changes that testosterone did. 

What testosterone does is increase bone density.  Build up and sharpen features.  That male brow is from testosterone.  That chin and jaw, the prominent bumps and ridges will all develop to a degree.  It won't be as total as if you had gotten it from puberty, and will be a gradual change.  But it will happen and continue to happen.

Estrogen causes minimal bone definition in its changes compared to testosterone.  This is why taking estrogen doesn't undo the masculinizing effects of testosterone.  They do the same thing, just testosterone to the a much much greater degree.    You will gain bone mass and density.  The longer you are on testosterone the more these will be masculinized.

Is it scientifically proven?  On what sources of information do you base your knowledge?

Biology major.

Love and fascination of biology since I was a kid.

Basic knowledge of puberty and hormones. 

You can look up the info on google.

I did misspeak on one point.  Wolffian system is the male system.  Mullerian system is the female system.  The anti-mullerian hormones is what kills the female reproductive system.

There is a condition called Androgen insensitivity syndrome.  It is where a genetic male fetus is immune to male hormones.  There are various levels of immunity.  Complete Androgen insensitivity syndrome, they are totally immune to androgens.  In the absent of the androgens (male hormones) the body continues to develop along it's natural template.  Female.  The anti-mullerian system cause the default female reproductive system to wither away before it develops into the uterus, cervix and upper vagina.  The fetus continues to follow the natural template of female development in the absence of signals from male hormones (because they are immune to them), developing a vagina, labia, clitoris etc. 

At puberty, these individuals will develop female secondary sex characteristics.  Their bodies respond only to the natural levels of estrogen the testes produce, not the testosterone.  If they were identified as AIS and their immature testes removed to prevent cancer risk, they will instead start hormone replacement therapy just like we take.  Since they are immune to androgens, testosterone won't work, and so they get estrogen.  This cause them to develop as female.  hips, breasts, female facial and skeletal structure and denisty.

The only thing different between someone with Complete Androgen insensitivity syndrome and any other genetic male is their body doesn't respond to testosterone.  That's it.  They are genetically male.  But develop as female.

You can google Complete Androgen insensitivity syndrome and see images of how a male in the absence of testosterone will develop. 



There is something called the SRY gene.  It stands for "the Sex determining Region of the Y chromosome" gene.  It is found on the Y chromosome only.  It initiates the development of a male fetus.  When this gene is mistakenly transcribed onto an X chromosome, a fetus with XX chromosome, female chromosomes will develop into a biological male.  They are known as XX male syndrome.  You can google that too.

The gonads begin in a state that can develop into either female or male system.  It is know as bipotential gonadal ridge.  Without the SRY gene to activate male development, which is caused by the release of male hormones to develop the fetus into a male.  Or in it's absence flooded with female hormones to develop the fetus into female.

Hormones define our sex before birth.

And again during puberty.  Look up what puberty is.  As wikipedia confirms "Puberty is the process of physical changes by which a child's body matures into an adult body capable of sexual reproduction to enable fertilisation. It is initiated by hormonal signals from the brain to the gonads: the ovaries in a girl, the testes in a boy. In response to the signals, the gonads produce hormones that stimulate libido and the growth, function, and transformation of the brain, bones, muscle, blood, skin, hair, breasts, and sexual organs. Physical growth—height and weight—accelerates in the first half of puberty and is completed when the child has developed an adult body. Until the maturation of their reproductive capabilities, the pre-pubertal, physical differences between boys and girls are the genitalia, the penis and the vagina."

"For boys, an androgen called testosterone is the principal sex hormone."

"The hormone that dominates female development is an estrogen called estradiol."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty

It goes on to list all the changes these hormones cause in both males and females. 

Hormones are way our bodies develop.  They signal cells and regions of the body to activate and start to grow and divide.  When sections of the skull get this signal, the bone cells in that area divide and reproduce a lot more, causing a more noticeable and prominent structure.  For example, hormones trigger the bone cells of the brow to divide and reproduce quickly.  More cells mean more bone, mean larger region of bone that jets out noticeably from the forehead and bone around it.  Think about it as if your were modeling the skull in clay and just kept adding more clay to the brow.  The brow would be larger and stick out more. That's what happens to the brow under the influence of testosterone. 

All of this can be looked up and confirmed for yourself.

But this is the reason for HRT.  Hormones trigger development of secondary sex characteristics in puberty.  HRT is used to induce a second puberty that will develop our bodies to match our gender identity and not our biology.

I think starting with some basics might help. 

http://www.ftmguide.org/ttherapybasics.html

Quote from: Brett on April 18, 2014, 10:17:26 PM
Yes.  It is accepted truth by those who have studied hormonal changes, you can't expect her to look up sources.

I think starting with some basics might help. 

http://www.ftmguide.org/ttherapybasics.html

Thank you Brett.  I was kinda hard pressed to back it up, as my source was myself and years of study and research.  So instead I info dumped. lol.

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on April 18, 2014, 10:19:59 PM
Thank you Brett.  I was kinda hard pressed to back it up, as my source was myself and years of study and research.  So instead I info dumped. lol.

As you can see I edited my post.  You made me eat my hat!

Hopefully, the page I linked will help Dani with some of their questions.

I am older and have been on T for a bit over a year, T changed *my* face completely, and I am read as male 98% (or more). You can take a look at these two pictures. You won't develop brow ridges but you don't need them to be read correctly. You can see that is more soft and curvy pre-T and more hard and squared from T. Surgery would be quite painful and involves major major stuff and is $$$.




--Jay

Quote from: Colleen♡Callie on April 18, 2014, 10:19:59 PM
Thank you Brett.  I was kinda hard pressed to back it up, as my source was myself and years of study and research.  So instead I info dumped. lol.

Do you think that testosterone is the sole aspect on how masculine a man will appear? Lets take this for example:



Do you think that the only difference between the androgynous male on the left and the masculine man on the right in their T level and how well they absorb it? What if the androgynous male get his T levels checked and the results shows that they are high? so that means he must has Androgen insensitivity syndrome? How does that come around?

Yes, how much of the hormone you produce and how receptive you are too them is how it works. 

Your DNA is a blueprint.  Hormones are what activate, control and change your body to match that blueprint.

The female Clitoris and the head of the penis, are the same thing.  Give female hormones during development and it develops into a clitoris.  Give male hormones during development and it develops into a penis.  See how that works?  Blank slate beginning that can go either way. 

Hormones are the way your body and genetics build you into a living breathing person all the way to adulthood.   




Consider this:

When a trans kid wants to transition, what happens to them?  They are too young for HRT and definitely too young for surgery?  So Doctors give them hormone blockers to prevent puberty from happening until they are 16 and old enough to consent to HRT. 

Without the hormones they don't go through puberty.  Don't grow hips or breasts as a FtM.  Don't grow facial hair or get a masculinized face as a MtF.  Then they go onto hrt and start to go through puberty for their gender identity instead.

Now, why block hormones to prevent puberty if that wasn't what causes puberty?



I don't know what you want?  All of this can be verified by you with a quick search.  It's not a big secret or a newly discovered breakthrough.  This is known, proven and rather common knowledge and has been for a long time.  It can be easily looked up and verified. 

So don't believe me.  Look it up for yourself.  If you think something else is the cause, look it up and see.  All I've done is try to help, and share how it works. 

Well you get a brow ridge in 1 year on T?  No.  As someone who went through puberty on the male side of things, guess what?  A cisguy doesn't get a brow ridge in a year.  It'll take a while.  But every year you will see your face masculinized more and more.  And 5 years you'll see a ridge.  In 10 years it'll be more pronounced. 

T doesn't stop changing and shaping a man's face at the end of puberty.  It's a life long thing.  At 30 my face is still being shaped by testosterone.  That'll stop this year though when I go on androgen blockers as part of my HRT.

Look it up.  Doubt me all you want, but look it up yourself.