Growing up as male made me feel very horrible. I never fitted in. Plus males can be such pigs at times (hey look at that girl and her breasts! What did you think of those?).

Now I'm on HRT, most don't know about me and I fit in with girls i'm much more happier and are so much more social.

I was always socially awkward with almost everyone. I had mostly male friends during my school years but would only be able to attract the quiet and\or mentally disturbed male kids in school. I was constantly bullied during school; things were thrown at me (not just small things; people tried to throw scooters and shopping carts at me), I was called names, and I was ousted by kids of both genders. During high school, I would spend most of my time as alone and isolated from everyone else as possible. I recently reconnected with a high school acquaintance of mine and she told me that she cant even remember if I ever spoke a word in high school. As a result of all of this and the fact that I was ashamed for being and confused about being trans that I was very quiet at school but very angry and upset at home. Life was not very fun back then and now I'm still trying to fight my social anxiety issues so that i can connect with more people. So far, i think I'm improving but its going to take more time to get all the way there. I also never really was able to develop a sense of style with my clothing as only recently have i been building a female wardrobe to wear. Back when I was a child, I was afraid of wearing makeup in fear of people making fun of me if i was unable to wash all of it off so now I need to start from the very basics in order to be able to apply makeup properly.

I do have to say that a lot of the quiet and\or mentally disturbed individuals that I hung around during high school have now become some of my biggest allies in my transition and they have also become much more social sense school.

Yes it was terrible and sent me into box where I hid and disconnected from the world cause I couldn't ever make things work right socially, and I stayed there so long I can only hope I can make a full emotional recovery.  A process which is ongoing, but on which I have made remarkable progress.  Endless list of bad, but I honestly don't want to dwell on that stuff.

I think if we can get past the harm it did, which is not maybe even feasible, but if we could, there are some advantages of being raised that way.  One of those which I feel is overlooked (or maybe not always noticed) is that we were encouraged to be smart and to be assertive and sort of lean forward and take control of things when we were younger, girls get that to a much less degree if at all.   I am positive I am much less likely to defer than I would be if I had been raised female, which is lucky for me because I do defer way too much.

We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths.  Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw.  Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.

Unfortunately for a lot of us we don't get to truly reap the benefits of that upbringing because we were so emotionally destroyed by dysphoria and living a lie and our lives being incorrect in so many ways that we just are nowhere with our lives, but I think even if this is the case for you, if you look hard enough and honestly enough, you may see things about your personality that benefitted from being raised male that may help you in your life going forward as a woman.  I have so much sympathy for ftms because they get all of the bad that comes with being trans, without any of that more beneficial socialization that mtfs get.

Also, just want to add that there are traditionally feminine things that are great.  I am not saying everything that girls were taught is bad or inferior to the lessons we teach boys.   Especially when it comes to emotional competence and empathy and those sorts of things.  Also, if I could choose, I would take being raised female without hesitation despite the disadvantages—it just would have fit my personality better, for one thing.  I guess I am just saying it may not be the worst move to just look for the positives, cause letting the neg consume you is actually harmful.

At the risk of not writing a small novel a lot of what others here have already posted happened to me as well. Didn't fit in and never really did. And when I did, I found myself playing a role more than anything else. Sadly I got pretty good at it. I think Jill actually hit the mark when she said "Inside was a scared little girl" but I built up extremely large walls to protect her. As my therapist put it just yesterday. "Veronica has been there all along, but Ron has built a defense mechanism around her so she doesn't get hurt" This actually make a lot of sense.

Quote from: Jen on April 18, 2014, 01:15:10 PM
We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths.  Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw.  Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.

I think this is a really interesting point, and one that I'm looking forward to exploring as a I transition in my professional life.  I've got an MBA, I work in finance, and have a good job.  But I've always felt like my ineptitude in developing a network of contacts has held me back professionally.  I've got an outgoing personality, but I've always felt uncomfortable in the good ol boys club.

Yes, there's a glass ceiling awaiting me.  But a big part of it is the early socializing that you mentioned.  With my male conditioning and my female charms, I can see that being a real advantage -- providing I pass well.

And BTW, I generally try to find the silver lining.  And as crappy as it is being trans, I can see this being an advantage.

Quote from: katiej on April 18, 2014, 03:02:05 PM
I think this is a really interesting point, and one that I'm looking forward to exploring as a I transition in my professional life.  I've got an MBA, I work in finance, and have a good job.  But I've always felt like my ineptitude in developing a network of contacts has held me back professionally.  I've got an outgoing personality, but I've always felt uncomfortable in the good ol boys club.

Yes, there's a glass ceiling awaiting me.  But a big part of it is the early socializing that you mentioned.  With my male conditioning and my female charms, I can see that being a real advantage -- providing I pass well.

And BTW, I generally try to find the silver lining.  And as crappy as it is being trans, I can see this being an advantage.

I agree with all of your points here but I do not think that it's "crappy being trans". There are definitely a lot of struggles with being trans but its just a different way of being. I'm proud that I'm trans and although I may have faced some huge struggles in accepting myself in the past and will most definitely see more struggles as I continue this path, I'm still glad that i am who i am.

Quote from: Jen on April 18, 2014, 01:15:10 PM
Yes it was terrible and sent me into box where I hid and disconnected from the world cause I couldn't ever make things work right socially, and I stayed there so long I can only hope I can make a full emotional recovery.  A process which is ongoing, but on which I have made remarkable progress.  Endless list of bad, but I honestly don't want to dwell on that stuff.

I think if we can get past the harm it did, which is not maybe even feasible, but if we could, there are some advantages of being raised that way.  One of those which I feel is overlooked (or maybe not always noticed) is that we were encouraged to be smart and to be assertive and sort of lean forward and take control of things when we were younger, girls get that to a much less degree if at all.   I am positive I am much less likely to defer than I would be if I had been raised female, which is lucky for me because I do defer way too much.

We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths.  Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw.  Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.

Unfortunately for a lot of us we don't get to truly reap the benefits of that upbringing because we were so emotionally destroyed by dysphoria and living a lie and our lives being incorrect in so many ways that we just are nowhere with our lives, but I think even if this is the case for you, if you look hard enough and honestly enough, you may see things about your personality that benefitted from being raised male that may help you in your life going forward as a woman.  I have so much sympathy for ftms because they get all of the bad that comes with being trans, without any of that more beneficial socialization that mtfs get.

Also, just want to add that there are traditionally feminine things that are great.  I am not saying everything that girls were taught is bad or inferior to the lessons we teach boys.   Especially when it comes to emotional competence and empathy and those sorts of things.  Also, if I could choose, I would take being raised female without hesitation despite the disadvantages—it just would have fit my personality better, for one thing.  I guess I am just saying it may not be the worst move to just look for the positives, cause letting the neg consume you is actually harmful.

Good points. Explains better than I could.
I think the silver lining for me is that I probably feel freer to be myself and express myself than most men. I don't want that part of being male that expects us to be an automaton. I think it prevents men from fully expressing themselves and their personalities. There's so much that's just off limits or frowned upon.

Also, I probably feel freer to like beautiful things than if I had been raised male. Small thing, but important to me.

Quote from: Jen on April 18, 2014, 01:15:10 PM
Yes it was terrible and sent me into box where I hid and disconnected from the world cause I couldn't ever make things work right socially, and I stayed there so long I can only hope I can make a full emotional recovery.  A process which is ongoing, but on which I have made remarkable progress.  Endless list of bad, but I honestly don't want to dwell on that stuff.

I think if we can get past the harm it did, which is not maybe even feasible, but if we could, there are some advantages of being raised that way.  One of those which I feel is overlooked (or maybe not always noticed) is that we were encouraged to be smart and to be assertive and sort of lean forward and take control of things when we were younger, girls get that to a much less degree if at all.   I am positive I am much less likely to defer than I would be if I had been raised female, which is lucky for me because I do defer way too much.

We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths.  Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw.  Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.

Unfortunately for a lot of us we don't get to truly reap the benefits of that upbringing because we were so emotionally destroyed by dysphoria and living a lie and our lives being incorrect in so many ways that we just are nowhere with our lives, but I think even if this is the case for you, if you look hard enough and honestly enough, you may see things about your personality that benefitted from being raised male that may help you in your life going forward as a woman.  I have so much sympathy for ftms because they get all of the bad that comes with being trans, without any of that more beneficial socialization that mtfs get.

Also, just want to add that there are traditionally feminine things that are great.  I am not saying everything that girls were taught is bad or inferior to the lessons we teach boys.   Especially when it comes to emotional competence and empathy and those sorts of things.  Also, if I could choose, I would take being raised female without hesitation despite the disadvantages—it just would have fit my personality better, for one thing.  I guess I am just saying it may not be the worst move to just look for the positives, cause letting the neg consume you is actually harmful.

Problem is, a lot of times those expectations become too much.

I was extremely talented in these fields from a very young age, and I had this issue where my parents started expecting too much of me. So while yes, having high expectations did open up the door for more success, it was also a graveyard in terms of developing self-worth. I basically internalized that nothing that I did was ever good enough unless it was absolutely perfect. Even if I got a 98%, my dad was always trying to get me to improve on it, to get that very last 2%.

Basically, it led to something that my mom calls "learned helplessness" where I started taking every single task as a test of my self-worth. And if I didn't succeed in things immediately, my response wasn't to study and work hard and get better, it was to feel shame and disgust at myself for failing, for not living up to my parents' expectations.

Frankly, I actually hated being male for this reason. I felt like if I was female, rather than having success in those fields be an expectation, it would be something that I was wowing people with, because they didn't expect a girl to be good in them. I felt like with that pressure off, I would have been much better off, and I would have learned to put hard work and effort into things to get better at them rather than feeling like every single time I failed I was letting everyone down, and thus not even trying because I felt so horrible about myself.

This pretty much sabotaged my entire academic career. Despite scoring at the top tier of every single standardized test I ever took, I was failing school classes, depressed, and miserable. And none of the academically-talented girls that I knew had this problem. They were all making close to straight-As, and knew the value of hard work and effort.

I'll admit, this is just one person's experience. But for me at least, I believe that this academic "privilege" and these expectations of success actually hurt me.

(In case you haven't noticed, I have NOTHING positive to say about the male experience. I still can't find a single way that it's actually helped me. No matter how I look at it, all I see it doing is turning me into a shy, miserable, emotionally-brain-dead kid whose subsequent lack of self-worth squandered whatever academic potential I had.)

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 05:12:41 PM
Problem is, a lot of times those expectations become too much.

I was extremely talented in these fields from a very young age, and I had this issue where my parents started expecting too much of me. So while yes, having high expectations did open up the door for more success, it was also a graveyard in terms of developing self-worth. I basically internalized that nothing that I did was ever good enough unless it was absolutely perfect. Even if I got a 98%, my dad was always trying to get me to improve on it, to get that very last 2%.

Basically, it led to something that my mom calls "learned helplessness" where I started taking every single task as a test of my self-worth. And if I didn't succeed in things immediately, my response wasn't to study and work hard and get better, it was to feel shame and disgust at myself for failing, for not living up to my parents' expectations.

Frankly, I actually hated being male for this reason. I felt like if I was female, rather than having success in those fields be an expectation, it would be something that I was wowing people with, because they didn't expect a girl to be good in them. I felt like with that pressure off, I would have been much better off, and I would have learned to put hard work and effort into things to get better at them rather than feeling like every single time I failed I was letting everyone down, and thus not even trying because I felt so horrible about myself.

This pretty much sabotaged my entire academic career. Despite scoring at the top tier of every single standardized test I ever took, I was failing school classes, depressed, and miserable. And none of the academically-talented girls that I knew had this problem. They were all making close to straight-As, and knew the value of hard work and effort.

I'll admit, this is just one person's experience. But for me at least, I believe that this academic "privilege" and these expectations of success actually hurt me.

Oh, yeah, my boyfriend is like this too. It takes so much prodding to get him to just try when I know he's really smart, but he's always beating himself up. We decided it was some compensatory narcissism. Just have to slowly unravel those beliefs about yourself.

I do have something similar also, except my belief is that people will hate me and leave me, and that I'm fundamentally bad and toxic. It takes a long time to unlearn. It might help you a lot to talk to a therapist!

Quote from: Jen on April 18, 2014, 01:15:10 PM
Yes it was terrible and sent me into box where I hid and disconnected from the world cause I couldn't ever make things work right socially, and I stayed there so long I can only hope I can make a full emotional recovery.  A process which is ongoing, but on which I have made remarkable progress.  Endless list of bad, but I honestly don't want to dwell on that stuff.

I think if we can get past the harm it did, which is not maybe even feasible, but if we could, there are some advantages of being raised that way.  One of those which I feel is overlooked (or maybe not always noticed) is that we were encouraged to be smart and to be assertive and sort of lean forward and take control of things when we were younger, girls get that to a much less degree if at all.   I am positive I am much less likely to defer than I would be if I had been raised female, which is lucky for me because I do defer way too much.

We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths.  Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw.  Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.

Thanks for sharing a different perspective.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 05:12:41 PM

Quote from: Jen on April 18, 2014, 01:15:10 PM
Yes it was terrible and sent me into box where I hid and disconnected from the world cause I couldn't ever make things work right socially, and I stayed there so long I can only hope I can make a full emotional recovery.  A process which is ongoing, but on which I have made remarkable progress.  Endless list of bad, but I honestly don't want to dwell on that stuff.

I think if we can get past the harm it did, which is not maybe even feasible, but if we could, there are some advantages of being raised that way.  One of those which I feel is overlooked (or maybe not always noticed) is that we were encouraged to be smart and to be assertive and sort of lean forward and take control of things when we were younger, girls get that to a much less degree if at all.   I am positive I am much less likely to defer than I would be if I had been raised female, which is lucky for me because I do defer way too much.

We were told that we were naturally good at disciplines like math and science and logic, which lend themselves to more successful career paths.  Believing you should be good at something actually does improve your performance studies have found btw.  Were were taught our minds mattered first, not our looks, which again points you in the direction of success and independence in life.

Unfortunately for a lot of us we don't get to truly reap the benefits of that upbringing because we were so emotionally destroyed by dysphoria and living a lie and our lives being incorrect in so many ways that we just are nowhere with our lives, but I think even if this is the case for you, if you look hard enough and honestly enough, you may see things about your personality that benefitted from being raised male that may help you in your life going forward as a woman.  I have so much sympathy for ftms because they get all of the bad that comes with being trans, without any of that more beneficial socialization that mtfs get.

Also, just want to add that there are traditionally feminine things that are great.  I am not saying everything that girls were taught is bad or inferior to the lessons we teach boys.   Especially when it comes to emotional competence and empathy and those sorts of things.  Also, if I could choose, I would take being raised female without hesitation despite the disadvantages—it just would have fit my personality better, for one thing.  I guess I am just saying it may not be the worst move to just look for the positives, cause letting the neg consume you is actually harmful.

Problem is, a lot of times those expectations become too much.

I was extremely talented in these fields from a very young age, and I had this issue where my parents started expecting too much of me. So while yes, having high expectations did open up the door for more success, it was also a graveyard in terms of developing self-worth. I basically internalized that nothing that I did was ever good enough unless it was absolutely perfect. Even if I got a 98%, my dad was always trying to get me to improve on it, to get that very last 2%.

Basically, it led to something that my mom calls "learned helplessness" where I started taking every single task as a test of my self-worth. And if I didn't succeed in things immediately, my response wasn't to study and work hard and get better, it was to feel shame and disgust at myself for failing, for not living up to my parents' expectations.

Frankly, I actually hated being male for this reason. I felt like if I was female, rather than having success in those fields be an expectation, it would be something that I was wowing people with, because they didn't expect a girl to be good in them. I felt like with that pressure off, I would have been much better off, and I would have learned to put hard work and effort into things to get better at them rather than feeling like every single time I failed I was letting everyone down, and thus not even trying because I felt so horrible about myself.

This pretty much sabotaged my entire academic career. Despite scoring at the top tier of every single standardized test I ever took, I was failing school classes, depressed, and miserable. And none of the academically-talented girls that I knew had this problem. They were all making close to straight-As, and knew the value of hard work and effort.

I'll admit, this is just one person's experience. But for me at least, I believe that this academic "privilege" and these expectations of success actually hurt me.

(In case you haven't noticed, I have NOTHING positive to say about the male experience. I still can't find a single way that it's actually helped me. No matter how I look at it, all I see it doing is turning me into a shy, miserable, emotionally-brain-dead kid whose subsequent lack of self-worth squandered whatever academic potential I had.)

I can see where that would be tough. Generally though, it seems a male upbringing better equips one for life in most arenas than a female one. Not that some girls don't get some of this, and some boys didn't. Just not really built into a female upbringing near as much.

Like for me, I didn't have anything men usually get. And I do kind of feel less equipped for life as a man. I mean, I just transitioned into an adult male role without any of the training boys get. And trans women get this too in reverse. But the difference is that most of that are seen as great assets to a woman. The strength, assertiveness, skills, success, etc. That all looks really good and even rare on a woman.

But the female training on a man does the opposite.
It looks really bad. Often the ingrained female stuff on a man just makes him come off weak. Even little stuff like how he talks - cause girls are just raised in deference.
But the opposite kind of thing is really valued for a woman.
I think that's what Jen is getting at.

Doesn't mean those things aren't harmful. Or growing up male doesn't suck in many ways it doesn't for a girl. Just that girls for the most part are raised to occupy a lower status. And some of the strength and other assets trans girls got from not being raised that way (even if their life sucked and they were 'beta' whatever that is) are assets. Like even a cursory glance here shows many trans women are a lot more successful than the average woman.

I mean, several women on this board who transitioned early have stated they'd have probably just ended up pregnant dropouts if they'd cis. And I don't think they're too off the mark. Sure, lots of successful, career women out there, but it's not the norm.

^And I just feel like I got the short end of the stick in both regards.

Because I got the lack of emotional freedom from the male socialization, and yet I still catch myself falling into the exact same habits that keep most women from succeeding professionally... undervaluing myself, not being assertive, being too afraid to stand up for my rights, apologizing for myself, not defending myself, trying to be seen as "good" by everyone above all else, being afraid of confrontation, etc.

Male socialization benefits those who actually fit into and value the masculine standards forced onto them.

But frankly, any trans woman who didn't fit into that, and spent their entire school careers hating that male socialization and actively trying to escape it, I feel like we got the worst of both worlds. The lack of emotional development and self-expression from "guy world," plus the passivity and lack of self-worth and drive from "girl world."

(In case you haven't noticed, my middle/high school career SUCKED. And now that I'm unemployed in two back-to-back cases because I refused to stand up for myself, and just went to a job fair where my ex-girlfriend was constantly telling me "will you PLEASE quit selling yourself short?" these past experiences are really fresh in my mind, and I can't help but feel like I really got the short end of the stick during the most crucial phases of the development of selfhood and future career skills. So if male socialization is an advantage, it sure as hell didn't help me. How the hell did I end up scraping the bottom of the barrel for s***ty minimum-wage jobs after scoring in the top 10 in the entire state of Florida in math? HOW???!!!)

Sigh... FML...

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 06:24:40 PM
^And I just feel like I got the short end of the stick in both regards.

Because I got the lack of emotional freedom from the male socialization, and yet I still catch myself falling into the exact same habits that keep most women from succeeding professionally... undervaluing myself, not being assertive, being too afraid to stand up for my rights, apologizing for myself, not defending myself, trying to be seen as "good" by everyone above all else, being afraid of confrontation, etc.

Male socialization benefits those who actually fit into and value the masculine standards forced onto them.

But frankly, any trans woman who didn't fit into that, and spent their entire school careers hating that male socialization and actively trying to escape it, I feel like we got the worst of both worlds. The lack of emotional development and self-expression from "guy world," plus the passivity and lack of self-worth and drive from "girl world."

(In case you haven't noticed, my middle/high school career SUCKED. And now that I'm unemployed in two back-to-back cases because I refused to stand up for myself, and just went to a job fair where my ex-girlfriend was constantly telling me "will you PLEASE quit selling yourself short?" these past experiences are really fresh in my mind, and I can't help but feel like I really got the short end of the stick during the most crucial phases of the development of selfhood and future career skills. So if male socialization is an advantage, it sure as hell didn't help me. How the hell did I end up scraping the bottom of the barrel for s***ty minimum-wage jobs after scoring in the top 10 in the entire state of Florida in math?)

I think an important thing to note is that you DO know that you are capable. You're frustrated with how you're doing, but you actually do believe that you could be doing better than you are with your abilities. And you are defending yourself right now.

Those are some benefits of male socialization. I mean, at the end of the day, you're batting for the Carrie Liz team, even if it is hard. And that's great. Somewhere you do have a belief in yourself. You have access to the idea that you can accomplish things, which, believe me, not everyone has, even not everyone who actually could be really capable. Some benefits of male socialization are just in not being as likely to suffer from many of the problems female socialization causes, and vice versa.

I'm not trying to invalidate your experience, just trying to help to point out some silver linings to something that you had no choice over (being socialized as male.)

@ Carrie

Those are your feelings and experiences. And I respect that. And I care that you've had such a hard time and don't see anything of benefit to this. We're not just male and female brains floating around not absorbing everything though. And I feel like there's little to no empathy or recognition around here for the female upbringing side of things. I mean, I recognize that the male upbringing is seriously toxic and awful. I guess I'd just like the same in return. I'm dealing with trying to let go of my past and all this. Which is why I keep talking about this stuff. I'm trying to heal. I'm trying to heal from all this stuff so I can move on.

It just feels like there's a lot of constant denial that it might actually really suck to win the genetic lottery of being born what is perceived all over the world as the lesser half of humanity.

Sorry... and I don't want to come across as someone who's not sympathetic. I think I've mentioned before, I HATE it when I see girls who have no self-confidence, no sense of pride in their own work, prefacing everything with "I don't think it's any good," because they were just raised to view themselves as lesser.

So I do see it. I see it all the time, actually. And it really makes me sad, and I wish I could do something about it.

I guess maybe in some way I'm just trying to convince myself that somehow I could have done better, somehow I could have overcome all of that, somehow I could have been a shining feminist example of someone who didn't let those things get her down. But at the end of the day, I'll just admit I'm a silly trans woman looking at female socialization through rose-colored glasses.

(And all too often falling right into the male-socialized "Mr. Fix-it" mindset rather than truly having empathy like I should be. )

Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 06:39:25 PM
@ Carrie

Those are your feelings and experiences. And I respect that. And I care that you've had such a hard time and don't see anything of benefit to this. We're not just male and female brains floating around not absorbing everything though. And I feel like there's little to no empathy or recognition around here for the female upbringing side of things. I mean, I recognize that the male upbringing is seriously toxic and awful. I guess I'd just like the same in return. I'm dealing with trying to let go of my past and all this. Which is why I keep talking about this stuff. I'm trying to heal. I'm trying to heal from all this stuff so I can move on.

It just feels like there's a lot of constant denial that it might actually really suck to win the genetic lottery of being born what is perceived all over the world as the lesser half of humanity.

I think this is happening because these experiences are getting connected in the wrong way, you know? Trans women feel bad about their male socialization and wish they had been socialized female, and vice versa, and feelings just are feelings, they're not about pros and cons. They can be backed up by rational thinking but they can also be independent of it. I think rationally, while trans women know or should know that males have a serious set of privileges, they are thinking emotionally and not rationally. They're responding to emotional (perceived) threats (of invalidation) with emotional narratives. I think that can be bad if they don't actually know rationally that males are privileged, and deny the misogyny that women face, but ultimately I guess you have to take these posts with a grain of salt because they're just emotional venting, which is not rational.

So, I want everyone to understand (oooh, I feel so official! I'm the thread starter!) that I'm hoping for this just to be a place to vent feelings. So ask yourself when posting if you're trying to make a point (rational post that you want feedback or criticism on) or if you're just trying to get something out (emotional post that is personal and you just want someone to hear and understand how you feel.)

It's okay to make a point too, but if you are, please try to indicate that that's what you're doing, and please give a lot of consideration to other perspectives and a less subjective view of the topic.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 06:47:47 PM
Sorry... and I don't want to come across as someone who's not sympathetic. I think I've mentioned before, I HATE it when I see girls who have no self-confidence, no sense of pride in their own work, prefacing everything with "I don't think it's any good," because they were just raised to view themselves as lesser.

So I do see it. I see it all the time, actually.

I guess maybe in some way I'm just trying to convince myself that somehow I could have done better, somehow I could have overcome all of that, somehow I could have been a shining feminist example of someone who didn't let those things get her down. But at the end of the day, I'll just admit I'm a silly trans woman looking at female socialization through rose-colored glasses.

You're not silly honey. I'm sure that it's hard to reconcile what I'm talking about when it's everything you ever wanted. I went about it the wrong way and really messed up trying to talk about it over these weeks. When I talked about how women are old at 25 and mostly valued for their looks. That's what it felt like. And a lot of people do think this way. I didn't talk about it the right way. I was trying to say all this stuff still has me seriously messed up, even as a guy.

To me, I guess, being male is limiting in a few specific ways - expression and clothes. (No small things!) But being female is limiting in lot of ways that have to do with basic humanity and personhood. And not just the glass ceiling etc, but also just the basic environment girls are raised in. The few women who are successful on a par with males either were very, very strong or really lucky in terms of parental and environmental factors.

I can't argue anymore. Because now, for better or for worse, I think I know what it's like to vent and spill your heart out only to have someone tell you "Oh, it's not that bad, you had this and this and this which was actually an advantage for you," and feeling like people aren't even listening, and feeling like "how the hell can you possibly say that this hell I went through had advantages when it screwed my life up this much and I ended up in this bad of a place?"

So yeah... I've vented, it was just emotional venting, a LOT of hurt came out, and I'm sorry for not giving others who did the same the same emotional courtesy of having their pain ackowledged. I'm sorry for being such a preachy one-sided b****.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 07:32:51 PM
I can't argue anymore. Because now, for better or for worse, I think I know what it's like to vent and spill your heart out only to have someone tell you "Oh, it's not that bad, you had this and this and this which was actually an advantage for you," and feeling like people aren't even listening, and feeling like "how the hell can you possibly say that this hell I went through had advantages when it screwed my life up this much and I ended up in this bad of a place?"

So yeah... I've vented, it was just emotional venting, a LOT of hurt came out, and I'm sorry for not giving others who did the same the same emotional courtesy of having their pain ackowledged. I'm sorry for being such a preachy one-sided b****.

No, if you don't like my post then please tell me. If it ended up being invalidating... please tell me. I wanna listen in this thread more than I want to talk. I'm also bound to be wrong a lot of the time. But, a lot of the issues you are going through have causes and solutions, and the solution to some problems is gaining self-awareness about your problems, accepting that they affect you and letting that be okay for now, but not permanent. You don't have to shut down or attack yourself. It's good to talk about it. It is good to communicate. But, I also think it's great that you were able to feel the other side of the impact you might have had before!

We're all figuring it out. (:

Quote from: sad panda on April 18, 2014, 06:58:57 PM

Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 06:39:25 PM
@ Carrie

Those are your feelings and experiences. And I respect that. And I care that you've had such a hard time and don't see anything of benefit to this. We're not just male and female brains floating around not absorbing everything though. And I feel like there's little to no empathy or recognition around here for the female upbringing side of things. I mean, I recognize that the male upbringing is seriously toxic and awful. I guess I'd just like the same in return. I'm dealing with trying to let go of my past and all this. Which is why I keep talking about this stuff. I'm trying to heal. I'm trying to heal from all this stuff so I can move on.

It just feels like there's a lot of constant denial that it might actually really suck to win the genetic lottery of being born what is perceived all over the world as the lesser half of humanity.

I think this is happening because these experiences are getting connected in the wrong way, you know? Trans women feel bad about their male socialization and wish they had been socialized female, and vice versa, and feelings just are feelings, they're not about pros and cons. They can be backed up by rational thinking but they can also be independent of it. I think rationally, while trans women know or should know that males have a serious set of privileges, they are thinking emotionally and not rationally. They're responding to emotional (perceived) threats (of invalidation) with emotional narratives. I think that can be bad if they don't actually know rationally that males are privileged, and deny the misogyny that women face, but ultimately I guess you have to take these posts with a grain of salt because they're just emotional venting, which is not rational.

So, I want everyone to understand (oooh, I feel so official! I'm the thread starter!) that I'm hoping for this just to be a place to vent feelings. So ask yourself when posting if you're trying to make a point (rational post that you want feedback or criticism on) or if you're just trying to get something out (emotional post that is personal and you just want someone to hear and understand how you feel.)

It's okay to make a point too, but if you are, please try to indicate that that's what you're doing, and please give a lot of consideration to other perspectives and a less subjective view of the topic.

Thanks hon. Well, I guess my feelings right now are both rational and emotional. I think it adds insult to injury to be born as 'the other' when you're male inside (not only were you were born the wrong sex, that sex also has the lower status). And that ftms have to deal with something mtfs don't - accusations and insinuations we are just trying to escape a 'lower status'. Mtfs don't have that to deal with. They never have to wonder if somehow at age 2 they got the message it was less preferable to be female. Usually, their childhood experiences enforce directly the opposite - that they are of the 'ruling class' and should never deign to don the clothing or mannerisms of slaves. (now that's a bit of a dramatic way to put it but... pretty much).

So as an ftm, I've got to deal with all this stuff. I've got to feel bad about acquiring what society sees as the preferred position.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 07:32:51 PM
I can't argue anymore. Because now, for better or for worse, I think I know what it's like to vent and spill your heart out only to have someone tell you "Oh, it's not that bad, you had this and this and this which was actually an advantage for you," and feeling like people aren't even listening, and feeling like "how the hell can you possibly say that this hell I went through had advantages when it screwed my life up this much and I ended up in this bad of a place?"

So yeah... I've vented, it was just emotional venting, a LOT of hurt came out, and I'm sorry for not giving others who did the same the same emotional courtesy of having their pain ackowledged. I'm sorry for being such a preachy one-sided b****.

Aww honey. I'm sorry. This has been really emotional for me as well the past few weeks. Trying to work through all this stuff, I guess. I understand. I didn't go through a male upbringing, but I understand it must have been really awful. I care, really I do. Yours was the post in that other thread that first made me realize I was hurting rather than helping with my rants. I care a lot and really like you.