sorry

I failed miserably at male socialization during my formative years

I was just being myself and didn't understand why I was treated in such an abusive manner by nearly everyone - I definitely didn't understand the attempted rape in the locker room showers or the subsequent other attempts or why people were so darn mean to me in general

Luckily, halfway through high school after the attempted rape in the showers my step dad began teaching me the martial arts he'd learned in Vietnam

Most folks decided not to to bother me much after that for some reason

Well, that's all I got to say about that for now

Take care

Hugs

Quote from: stephaniec on April 18, 2014, 10:48:43 PM
sorry

Thanks hon.
I'm cracking. just ignore it.

I think the most effect this would relate to for me would be my past romantic relationships where I wasn't "manly" enough. I really wondered what that meant and tried to be "super manly", haha if that's a thing (it really isn't but you're welcome to disagree). I was just being me, they wanted me to be something I wasn't. Looking back, really terrible relationships at that.

I closed myself off from everybody and looked for every opportunity to be alone. Nothing guys talked about seemed fun and I always felt like a spy when I was around girls, like I shouldn't be there because they thought it was out of place. It just wasn't meant to be.

As far as sexism, it's there. But it's a give and take kind of thing. There's female privilege as well as male privilege. All things considered, life has been fairly decent to me and it could definitely be worse. I try to count my blessings.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on April 18, 2014, 06:24:40 PM
^And I just feel like I got the short end of the stick in both regards.

Because I got the lack of emotional freedom from the male socialization, and yet I still catch myself falling into the exact same habits that keep most women from succeeding professionally... undervaluing myself, not being assertive, being too afraid to stand up for my rights, apologizing for myself, not defending myself, trying to be seen as "good" by everyone above all else, being afraid of confrontation, etc.

Male socialization benefits those who actually fit into and value the masculine standards forced onto them.

But frankly, any trans woman who didn't fit into that, and spent their entire school careers hating that male socialization and actively trying to escape it, I feel like we got the worst of both worlds. The lack of emotional development and self-expression from "guy world," plus the passivity and lack of self-worth and drive from "girl world."

(In case you haven't noticed, my middle/high school career SUCKED. And now that I'm unemployed in two back-to-back cases because I refused to stand up for myself, and just went to a job fair where my ex-girlfriend was constantly telling me "will you PLEASE quit selling yourself short?" these past experiences are really fresh in my mind, and I can't help but feel like I really got the short end of the stick during the most crucial phases of the development of selfhood and future career skills. So if male socialization is an advantage, it sure as hell didn't help me. How the hell did I end up scraping the bottom of the barrel for s***ty minimum-wage jobs after scoring in the top 10 in the entire state of Florida in math? HOW???!!!)

Sigh... FML...

I actually identify very closely with your story, a lot of the experiences you describe here mirror my own, like eerily so.  Please don't get the idea that being raised male was a good experience for me.  It left scars.  I barely survived tbh, and I can totally empathize with how you feel and if you still feel the crush of it all, it makes me feel emotional for you.  Because I know exactly how that feels and I don't want anybody in the world to have to feel it.

Quote from: FA on April 18, 2014, 06:14:56 PM
But the female training on a man does the opposite.
It looks really bad. Often the ingrained female stuff on a man just makes him come off weak. Even little stuff like how he talks - cause girls are just raised in deference.
But the opposite kind of thing is really valued for a woman.
I think that's what Jen is getting at.

Yes, exactly.

One of the most difficult thing for transwomen is learning female socialisation cues. I know that as a "male" I was socially awkward for a large part of my life, probably didn't get it together until I was 35 or so. The way women communicate with other women is generally different from how they communicate with men, and it's certainly different from how men communicate with women or men communicate with men. So as transpeople socialised to communicate the way men communicate we can certainly be behind the communication eight ball during our transition phase, often we lack certain communication cues and etiquettes which are expected of and by women. I've been "studying" it by watching the way women speak to each other, it's not too hard once I got the hang of it but it needed to be done.

The two genders are definitely worlds apart. It's very satisfying and WORTH IT to be seen as the one that is correct to you. It takes effort to retrain yourself to get to that point if you've been living as the other gender for a while.

I want to give a big hug to everyone on this thread, especially FA, who's fast becoming like an honorary brother to me.

My childhood was extremely different. I grew up in the Philippines where there's an established identity category for feminine boys, and I was pretty much allowed to do whatever I wanted. I was never policed and I had really significant friendships with both boys and girls, and I played with both genders though I guess I played with girls more. In the Philippines, the popular kids are the smart kids, and I was one of the smarties so I was well-liked and sought after as a friend. Boys in the Philippines were aware that I'm feminine and would probably grow up to like boys, and there were a few who cared about that, but most of them didn't care and were happy to be my friend.

I was never bullied and pretty much always felt loved by my family, especially my grandmother who raised me because my parents were 17 and were about to go to college when they had me. She still lives in the Philippines and is fiercely protective of me, correcting anyone who tries to use my birth name from before (no gendered pronouns in Tagalog, which is a relief).

My dad is a big LGBT advocate and grew his hair long and regularly wore a headband at a certain point in my transition process to show his solidarity. He's a big pain in the ass sometimes but in this specific respect he's wonderful.

Obviously this kind of upbringing had an enormous effect on my life, allowing me to be confident in myself and not fundamentally question that I am a good and worthy person. I hope that whatever other people have endured, you can know that it's not you but your environment that has shaped your life, and it's something that people can hopefully transcend.

I just published a piece about my childhood growing up without gendered pronouns if you feel like taking a look:

https://medium.com/the-archipelago/bd320108f834

Its funny, I always got along with both sexes the same in school.
I went to an all boys school and was ok at sport, but was very shy and boring. outside of school I had a few friends, both sexes and I was just that middle kid.
After I started living as a female I started to I found that it was harder to make female friends than male, however once you became friends with a female you were close.

I had an "ok" childhood but I had far more female friends than male friends, in jr and high school guys would never call me to hang out or do guy stuff with them but the girls in the neighborhood and female classmates would always invite me to hangout and socialize with them which I really enjoyed a lot, even though I was totally in boy mode way back then it just felt natural to hang with the girls
   It's funny when I look back at my senior high yearbook all but one of the classmates that wrote in it were girls.

My sister is two years younger than me and we got along very very well and we shared a lot of the same friends, but with people usually saying she was the perfect "girl version" of me it would upset me a bit.

Hmmm... a lot of you seem to have had a tough time, and some of you can link it directly to your gender.

In contrast, sure my growing up wasn't all peaches and cream, but I really can't blame it on my male socialization.
This was because I figured out the 'rules' early on and by following them never encountered issues.

As an example, you know that silly fingernail test that runs around all elementary schools? Hey, look at your fingernails. If you look palm down you are a girl and palm up you are a boy. That stupid thing? Yeah, I made sure to pass it every time. I mean, that's a silly example, but it's one of many.

I learned what to do, what not to do, how to dress, what not to wear. Ect... I basically internalized the concept that femininity was a no-no and built it into my every action.

Now that I'm going to transition, I realize that I never actually disliked a lot of it, but I had just internalized the external expectations around me. Thus, socialized. But for the most part, even if I had transitioned early in life, I don't think I would have been a girly-girl most of the time, which is why I didn't feel such a huge problem with the socialization I received.

Yes, I was bullied, but that was because I was short and nerdy and when I was younger I cried a bit too often, but once I figured out how to control that, and once I got into High School I was quite popular among the general people. I could sit at 60% of the tables at lunch when it was filled with 400+ kids and instantly start up a conversation. I could always spot a friend in the hallway...

So, my socialization limited me. Yes. And I have felt far freer now that I have pushed aside those limitations, but I was not emotionally scared in particular from my childhood being socialized as a male.

How will it affect me? Well... I still am trying to release myself from the 'femininity is a no-no'... which sort of naturally broke itself anyways, but I still hit barriers mentally sometimes. Like, the color pink still puts me off sometimes, just because my mind says "Too feminine!" and warning signs go off... even though I already have plenty of pink stuff I love. I also think I'll naturally have some non-feminine or more androgenous styles a lot, just because it's what I'm use to, but I'm not worried about that.

It's pretty strange when I think of my life during my teenage years and childhood. Because a lot of the things I did I never applied gender to it. As far as socialization goes, like a few have mentioned, I too learned early on that I had to suppress my femininity at a very young age. I have very early memories from elementary where I saw kids like me being bullied for acting like a girl, so I did the opposite. There were a few times where my circle of friends would catch me not being very boyish and those moments just crushed me. Like some people would say I walked like a girl. But I always had a knack for analyzing people so I did my best to walk like a guy and eventually it stuck. Which would actually cause severe back problems later in my life. I had a female pelvis and didn't realize this fully till I was much older. I remember making promises to myself to continue to improve my male identity thus burying my female self even deeper.

However somethings I couldn't suppress completely and that was my sensitive self. I've always been a big cry baby, the smallest things would make me cry. There were numerous times throughout elementary and middle school where I would just cry in the middle of class because of a bad grade or someone I cared about was being hurt. That's always been me. a very sensitive person but over the years I did develop a thick skin. I'm still pretty sensitive nonetheless. Despite all of this in elementary my group of friends always saw me as a leader, I've always been the kind of person to take charge and guide people.

By middle school understanding the differences between male and female socialization became very clear to me.  I would see how so many of the boys would treat the females and it was borderline monstrous honestly. The amount of sexism was atrocious. I saw so many girls constantly being treated like they were just sex objects.  I remember feeling very uncomfortable and a few times I stuck up for the girls but by the 8th grade my depression was in full force. And the fiery attitude I had for so long died for a bit. I lost a lot of myself during those years. Suicide attempts were made and was drinking myself into oblivion. When I got to high school things became even worst and I ended up dropping out. I couldn't stand trying to act like these "macho guys" just so I could fit in. I've always been very social, so fitting in for me has always been a big deal.  So basically my male socialization never really happened. I tried forcing it and it would just make my dysphoria even worst. I had been putting on an act since I was a kid, just to avoid the bullying and so I could have a some kind of social life. I had a lot of female friends, I always found it easier to connect with women vs guys.

Dropping out was the best thing I did during that time. I could finally focus on myself and just do what I though was best without any influence from my peers. I did have a few more rounds of depression happen when I started transition but it became less and less as time passed. Whatever male socialization I did have, it was very easy to do away with. Since it had never been natural for me to begin with and was always forced.

I had been hiding for so many years. It's been a long road but life is so much less of a struggle when you stop denying who you truly are. I'm the happiest I've ever been 

awww, thank you Kate, that's so sweet of you to say...

It was pretty weird being this age enigma huh? I swear it messes with you lol.

Wow! Obi Wan was right when he said,"You're going to find Luke, that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
I was raised in a matriarchy. My grandmother ruled, period. If you did not respect women, you got the back of your head smacked in. Imagine my surprise later in life when I found out that the rest of the world was ignorant of the truth. They actually thought that men made the rules. The way I see it, and this is my own opinion, men are hard, but women are strong. It is male interaction that makes it so. It's a contest, a game. It can lead to a lot of things but true growth is not one of them. Sorry to the men reading this, but my grandmother was right, men are just boys grown taller. It can be adorable though. Now that is a generalization. All men are not the same.
My early experiences with men were all bad. Men not boys. My father was a pig. I was sexually abused by my uncle from the age eight to twelve. My grandfather wanted nothing to do with me, but loved my older brother. After twelve though there was an uncle that finally broke through the distrust enough to show that not all men were bad.
Male socialization though, is just a contest. I was always good at games. The wall that I built in my mind by the time I was four kept me from showing any form of sensitivity, so I was ABLE to fit in. For the most part I chose not to.
Maybe our prisons are of our own making. There are laws and there are rules, but truths are a little more flexible. Maybe they are not true, until and unless, we accept them to be so.

Mikaela