THIS RESPONSE IS NOT AS A MODERATOR, BUT A FAMILY MEMBER HERE!

I am terribly disappointed with the poll results thus far. It appears quite a lot of people think I lie when I respond to the passing topic. I do not lie at all with my opinions. If I say you look good it is because I see past the makeup and clothes and see eyes that are alive maybe for the first time in a persons life. I see confidence where none may have existed before. I see a life of hope reflected where previously dark thought may have been getting a foot hold. If so many of you think I lie then how can we support each other? How can new members actually feel welcome? How many people will believe us when we say there is hope in life? Why should we post if no one believes us? I have not lied to one single person on this forum and have bared my soul for all to see. The information I give is from personal experience and tears shed. I have personal problems just like all of you, the difference is I try to help others and not wallow in self pity. I don't turn down advice and argue when I get a conflicting response to my own values. I thank the person for their time and go on. I am devastated by what I have read in this topic. I would love nothing better than to delete it as it is dividing us, but I cant. One thing I will do is continue giving my honest and heart felt replies to anyone who asks for help. Shame on you who do not do the same.

QuoteI do not lie at all with my opinions.

That's good and i can't speak for everyone but it is surely appreciated by me .

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 20, 2014, 11:50:37 PM
THIS RESPONSE IS NOT AS A MODERATOR, BUT A FAMILY MEMBER HERE!

I am terribly disappointed with the poll results thus far. It appears quite a lot of people think I lie when I respond to the passing topic. I do not lie at all with my opinions. If I say you look good it is because I see past the makeup and clothes and see eyes that are alive maybe for the first time in a persons life. I see confidence where none may have existed before. I see a life of hope reflected where previously dark thought may have been getting a foot hold. If so many of you think I lie then how can we support each other? How can new members actually feel welcome? How many people will believe us when we say there is hope in life? Why should we post if no one believes us? I have not lied to one single person on this forum and have bared my soul for all to see. The information I give is from personal experience and tears shed. I have personal problems just like all of you, the difference is I try to help others and not wallow in self pity. I don't turn down advice and argue when I get a conflicting response to my own values. I thank the person for their time and go on. I am devastated by what I have read in this topic. I would love nothing better than to delete it as it is dividing us, but I cant. One thing I will do is continue giving my honest and heart felt replies to anyone who asks for help. Shame on you who do not do the same.

Please don't take any comments as a personal remark against you or the site.  I have no doubt you care about the people here and want to help as best as you know how.  If you can't do that at times, it's not your fault.  You can only do so much.

In any case, even if people tell the truth as they see it, they can only share their own perspective.  They can't know what other's will see, know what someone will face and everything they've faced before.  All these things play a role in one's passing or how they see themselves or their situation.  Keep that in mind as perspective is really an idividual thing and it's impossible for any of us to guess someone elses situation, how it will turn out or what they need without real life interaction.  We do the best we can do from here.  Sometimes that falls short.  And that's okay because you had good intentions and tried to help. 

Again, passing is a bit subjective.  To some on here and in life, I do pass.  To others and myself, I don't.  Who is right and who is wrong?  I guess no one really is as it interpretation differs from each person.  That doesn't make this thread harmful.  It's just that there is only so much someone can say about someone elses passing potential over a forum.  And hell, we are all a tad biased in some way given our transgender status.  Separating that is a tad difficult. 

I don't really understand what the point of this thread was, when it was overwhelmingly decided that the passing thread was negative, and in the very least it should be rebranded, and yet shortly after that was discovered version 4 of the passing thread went live. 

Besides, saying that people are outright lying might be a bit strong, maybe being a bit generous in their critiques, or flat out ignoring people, is a better way to phrase it.

People can be as honest as they want in the threads...But cameras lie. There is no substitute for how you're treated by the general public.

I think part of the problem is that when someone is asking if they pass,they don't always MEAN the thing to different people. I see the question along the same lines as this one "Does this dress make me look fat?" For some it really means "Am I fat or getting fat?" For others it means "Does this dress flatter my figure?"  And if the husband answers yes does it mean that the women is ACTUALLY FAT? A size 12 woman that is NOT fat that buys a dress that is closer in size to a size 10 is NOT going to fit very well in it.

This is my opinion only but I think some are asking if they are passable enough to be fine with it and others are asking Am i drop dead beautiful. I think the question itself is part of the problem. If the question is NOT defined well enough the answer may cause all kinds of problems and the answer NOT ALWAYS meant that way.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 20, 2014, 11:50:37 PM
THIS RESPONSE IS NOT AS A MODERATOR, BUT A FAMILY MEMBER HERE!

I am terribly disappointed with the poll results thus far. It appears quite a lot of people think I lie when I respond to the passing topic. I do not lie at all with my opinions. If I say you look good it is because I see past the makeup and clothes and see eyes that are alive maybe for the first time in a persons life. I see confidence where none may have existed before. I see a life of hope reflected where previously dark thought may have been getting a foot hold. If so many of you think I lie then how can we support each other? How can new members actually feel welcome? How many people will believe us when we say there is hope in life? Why should we post if no one believes us? I have not lied to one single person on this forum and have bared my soul for all to see. The information I give is from personal experience and tears shed. I have personal problems just like all of you, the difference is I try to help others and not wallow in self pity. I don't turn down advice and argue when I get a conflicting response to my own values. I thank the person for their time and go on. I am devastated by what I have read in this topic. I would love nothing better than to delete it as it is dividing us, but I cant. One thing I will do is continue giving my honest and heart felt replies to anyone who asks for help. Shame on you who do not do the same.

Jessica I sympathize with you and know how you feel. When I first read this thread and one other that reeeeaaally bothered me (the one where the OP thought we don't really care) I was very offended. I of course would know if/when I post a photo on this site I will get the truth from you. I've read alot of your posts and have felt nothing but pure honesty coming through your words. There are a few other girls like you on here who would give me the truth along with suggestions on how I can improve my look. Please don't take anything in my reply as offensive for it certainly was not directed toward you. If you notice, the examples I gave for replies are nothing like what you would give. I truly value your opinions and after my 6 month mark I'll be counting on yours and a few other girls's advice on how I can improve my facial features.

Hugs,

Ally

Quote from: Missy~rmdlm on April 21, 2014, 05:35:41 AM
People can be as honest as they want in the threads...But cameras lie. There is no substitute for how you're treated by the general public.

Now this is very true. I've seen photo's of alot of people in general that portray a person very different than how they look in person.

Quote from: Chic on April 20, 2014, 03:21:34 PM
We have the opposite predicament. I have a feminine face that will be great for HRT and yet I have a not-so-feminine build. Yet you have the feminine build and the, in your opinion, not as passable face

Kinda weird huh? However hrt will go along way to reshape your body by redistributing muscle and fat to give you a more feminine shape. As for me, being xxy I've always had a feminine body shape which my hrt is really improving even after the short time I've been on my full transition dose. I just hope my face starts seeing improvement soon. Then again, my facial flaws I perceive are IMO, and quite a few people tell me I'm overreacting or being overcritical of myself and I need to give my hrt more time, which I fully intend to do before considering any cosmetic surgeries.

Chic, once you start your hrt and give it a little time you'll be amazed at the changes in you both inside and out -especially at your young age.

Hugs,

Ally

Quote from: Kara Jayde on April 21, 2014, 01:07:08 AM
I don't really understand what the point of this thread was, when it was overwhelmingly decided that the passing thread was negative, and in the very least it should be rebranded, and yet shortly after that was discovered version 4 of the passing thread went live. 

Besides, saying that people are outright lying might be a bit strong, maybe being a bit generous in their critiques, or flat out ignoring people, is a better way to phrase it.

For years, there have been a lot of complaints that nobody's honest in the threads and concerns it does more harm than good. Like I said, I don't typically read these threads unless there's a complaint. So, this was a way to find out what you all thought. I'm still going through all the comments.

The thread in question is usually automatically replaced by mods once it reaches a certain number of posts.
Maybe the wording was a bit strong, 'but 'lying' has been a word used in the complaints.
I've just realized that the thread may have unintentionally caused hurt feelings, and I'm sorry about that. That was not intended. I'm not mtf, so I can only go by what people are telling me. I just didn't want to leave a feature up if it was seen as useless or harmful.

EDIT: For what it's worth, the few times I have commented in these threads, I was as honest as I could be. But as has been stated, a picture only says so much. As stated, there may be someone who passes awesomely with a gorgeous female face in a picture. But other features give them away on the street. Or the opposite, someone who doesn't look that passable in a static one dimensional image. But does pass well on the street.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 20, 2014, 11:50:37 PM
THIS RESPONSE IS NOT AS A MODERATOR, BUT A FAMILY MEMBER HERE!

I am terribly disappointed with the poll results thus far. It appears quite a lot of people think I lie when I respond to the passing topic. I do not lie at all with my opinions. If I say you look good it is because I see past the makeup and clothes and see eyes that are alive maybe for the first time in a persons life. I see confidence where none may have existed before. I see a life of hope reflected where previously dark thought may have been getting a foot hold. If so many of you think I lie then how can we support each other? How can new members actually feel welcome? How many people will believe us when we say there is hope in life? Why should we post if no one believes us? I have not lied to one single person on this forum and have bared my soul for all to see. The information I give is from personal experience and tears shed. I have personal problems just like all of you, the difference is I try to help others and not wallow in self pity. I don't turn down advice and argue when I get a conflicting response to my own values. I thank the person for their time and go on. I am devastated by what I have read in this topic. I would love nothing better than to delete it as it is dividing us, but I cant. One thing I will do is continue giving my honest and heart felt replies to anyone who asks for help. Shame on you who do not do the same.

I understand. And believe me this thread was never intended to cause hurt feelings. Sometimes I can be a little blunt with wording. But there have been a ton of complaints over the years, and a couple serious ones lately. It was important to address it. The idea that someone could go out with false expectations and face danger is very concerning to me. I'm still reading all the comments and suggestions.

given the nature of the subject and environment of like minded folks these threads are nothing other then feel good eye candy. and why not, as transition brings so much negative that a bit of delusional goodness is good for the heart.
However, the only productive way of telling someone they are visually indistinguishable from a GG is a lengthy video with sound, movement and all inclusive view, especially side view of the face.
Still pictures and front only view do nothing as to establish character of gender.
And once more, passability is such a wrong term, as it points out the fake nature of the being. To Pass as something is to be viewed as that something even though the one passing isn't it!

I Pass as a German, it is obvious that I am not a German, as if I would be German I wouldn't pass, but simply be!!!

We also need to remember this is based opinions and NOT ALWAYS fact. Some who give their opinions also only believe that UNLESS you look like a Cover Girl model you do not pass.

Hi,

But the question is maybe : do the truth exist ? and just one truth exist ?
The truth is an illusion, isn't it ? For the same thing, it exists some point of views, so different truths. And all are right !
The same person can be a wonderful person and the oposite. Depend who look. And finally, the person is the same.
There is a big part of the mind too : I tell you : you are really passing... ok but I you want to believe that you don't...
Another way is to look at on the life, on the streets biologic women who seem so masculine, no ?
Of course, if you do all to be masculine... no miracle.
Now, I understand the initial question because I think that my face is too much masculine... and hard to me. But If from now, I think that my face is feminine... probably, more changes I think become.
Take care of yourself,
Hannah

Quote from: Allyda on April 21, 2014, 07:48:20 AM
Please don't take anything in my reply as offensive for it certainly was not directed toward you.

I never would Allyda! I know what you mean sweetie. My problem is with those that thinks looks are everything and older members are a punch line and make them discount the belief they have in themselves. We may be older, but I think we are much more secure in ourselves and our lives. Looks are not nearly as important to us as how we feel inside after fighting Dysphoria for so long. Passing is not about looks, but how we all view ourselves. If we are happy no one should discount that because we are not models. Some here love their new lives and may not be able to afford every surgery on the planet. I just feel that someone saying you need this and that or forget transition are just plain wrong and not very supportive. Only my opinion though.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 21, 2014, 02:48:27 PM
I never would Allyda! I know what you mean sweetie. My problem is with those that thinks looks are everything and older members are a punch line and make them discount the belief they have in themselves. We may be older, but I think we are much more secure in ourselves and our lives. Looks are not nearly as important to us as how we feel inside after fighting Dysphoria for so long. Passing is not about looks, but how we all view ourselves. If we are happy no one should discount that because we are not models. Some here love their new lives and may not be able to afford every surgery on the planet. I just feel that someone saying you need this and that or forget transition are just plain wrong and not very supportive. Only my opinion though.

Don't take this the wrong way and it's not directed at anyone but the thing with older members is they always say "passing is a state of mind" or something. That's fine. Nothing wrong with it. But, most of the older transtioners have lived full successful lives as men and had kids and everything else. For a younger member, who never had a family or kids, but desperately wants them, even if it's adoption, guess what? Passing matters big time. Guys will date and have sex with a trans woman. I'm living proof. But, you have to pass. In order to get a job, you have to pass. I don't make these rules and I certainly don't enforce them, but that's the way it is. People in society will give a "pass" hehehe to trans women who pass and are pretty and say "well, look at her, she should have transitioned. But, those other people..." I know because I have encountered it. A LOT. It's privilege. The other thing that passing well for a younger member does is it allows her to have a more laid back, care free happy attitutude without constant fear which blossoms into self confidence. And that is sexy. This is more of just an explanation of feelings and thoughts about this thread and the whole topic of passing in general and not meant to put anyone down or say you shouldnt transition if you dont pass. i think you should transtion for one reason: you need to. All else be damned. xoxxo

EDIT: But also people need to remember transtion takes time. This isn't a six month or year long process. yeah some pass faster than others because of where they started. But, given enought time on hormones and the right presentation and attitute, I believe most will "pass" (gawd, im starrting to hate that word" in time.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 21, 2014, 02:48:27 PM
I never would Allyda! I know what you mean sweetie. My problem is with those that thinks looks are everything and older members are a punch line and make them discount the belief they have in themselves. We may be older, but I think we are much more secure in ourselves and our lives. Looks are not nearly as important to us as how we feel inside after fighting Dysphoria for so long. Passing is not about looks, but how we all view ourselves. If we are happy no one should discount that because we are not models. Some here love their new lives and may not be able to afford every surgery on the planet. I just feel that someone saying you need this and that or forget transition are just plain wrong and not very supportive. Only my opinion though.

I just would like to apologize off hand if my comments seem to portray that view.  I'm throwing myself out there because I think they can do that indirectly and can be part of that problem. For me, looks are very important and help me measure my progress.   It's hard to explain but passing is big part of my transition and how I see myself.  It's not healthy or productive to place so much emphasis in looks, but that's part of my dysphoria and I suppose it's my path.  Without ever having the abilityy to pass, I would have to question my future existence.

Nontheless, there are other takes on this and passing doesn't have to be important for everyone.  We all have different priorities and there is no right or wrong path.  There are millions of ways to transition and time frames to take things on.  If someone doesn't pass physically and they are happy, then that's awesome.  Really it's all about finding out your own comfort levels and seeking for happiness.  It's just some of us realize we won't be happy without being able to blend.  Those that don't care about that have my complete respect, it's just not for me.  I respect your view Jess, but it's hard for me to personally apply that to myself even though I think that's a valid perspective to have.

In any case, I wanted to clarify because I don't want to be hurting any people in the process when I talk about the importance of passing for me.  What's important for me doesn't have to be important for everyone.  It's very possible for some to have a succesful transition without obbsessing over looks.  Probably the healthier way to be in reality. 

I honestly feel that passing thread should be deleted. If a member really wants to be judged on whether they pass or not then they can always create a thread for it. And if the thread must exist then at the very least it should be private, only available for members of the site.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 21, 2014, 03:25:16 PM
Don't take this the wrong way and it's not directed at anyone but the thing with older members is they always say "passing is a state of mind" or something. That's fine. Nothing wrong with it. But, most of the older transtioners have lived full successful lives as men and had kids and everything else. For a younger member, who never had a family or kids, but desperately wants them, even if it's adoption, guess what? Passing matters big time. Guys will date and have sex with a trans woman. I'm living proof. But, you have to pass. In order to get a job, you have to pass. I don't make these rules and I certainly don't enforce them, but that's the way it is. People in society will give a "pass" hehehe to trans women who pass and are pretty and say "well, look at her, she should have transitioned. But, those other people..." I know because I have encountered it. A LOT. It's privilege. The other thing that passing well for a younger member does is it allows her to have a more laid back, care free happy attitutude without constant fear which blossoms into self confidence. And that is sexy. This is more of just an explanation of feelings and thoughts about this thread and the whole topic of passing in general and not meant to put anyone down or say you shouldnt transition if you dont pass. i think you should transtion for one reason: you need to. All else be damned. xoxxo

EDIT: But also people need to remember transtion takes time. This isn't a six month or year long process. yeah some pass faster than others because of where they started. But, given enought time on hormones and the right presentation and attitute, I believe most will "pass" (gawd, im starrting to hate that word" in time.

Joanna, I like you and read alot of your posts so don't get me wrong when I say this, and please understand I'm not directing this at you: The assumption that we older girls all had productive lives is inaccurate. I can use my life as an example. You know that "in between" stage we all girls go through during transition? Hmmm? Well as you may or may not know I have Klinefelter's Syndrome, meaning I'm xxy. As you've undoubtably read in some of my other posts, I've known I was a girl since early childhood. I always looked like a little girl as a kid, through adolescence, and as an adult, and I lived that "in between" stage all my adult life. Successful? HA!! I won't repeat my other posts here but my entire adult life up until 5 years ago has been a catastrophe! I've literally been to hell and back to get to where I am now. Yes, I did make good money here and there but it was sporadic at best, work 3 times harder and longer than my fellow employees to prove my worth all the while hearing the snickering and questioning whether I was a girl, a boy, or even both, also the name calling.

And never mind me what about our fellow older sisters that have lost their family and everything after coming out to them. No, I believe we older girls go through many of the same issues our younger sisters do sometimes in a different context but the base self doubt, depressions, needs, emotions, and wanting so bad to just be a normal girl/woman are the same whether your 18 or 78. And last, We transition for the same reason/s: To live happy as ourselves and end the misery of the false facade we can no longer maintain.

As I said Joanna I'm not directing this at you, I enjoy reading your posts, -your that good kind of a little crazy that brings a smile to my face more often than not. I'm only directing this the assumption. Oh and one last thing, some of we older ladies can be drop dead sizzling hot!!

Ally

Quote from: Lady_Oracle on April 21, 2014, 05:50:18 PM
I honestly feel that passing thread should be deleted. If a member really wants to be judged on whether they pass or not then they can always create a thread for it. And if the thread must exist then at the very least it should be private, only available for members of the site.

As one who doesn't pass for anything other than a weird androgynous person I can assure you all that passing or not passing has a lot more to do with your own self esteem than how you look or act. I think we are all subject to a certain amount of self delusion at times, but the real pass or no pass thing has nothing to do with how young or how attractive one is, but more about how one projects their own self esteem to those who may be watching. I had a beautiful MtF girlfriend who lived her life in terror thinking that people are watching her and whispering and pointing at her, it ruined her life. Maybe because I'm an older adult and already know that I don't pass that I project a self esteem that really doesn't give a rats ass what others think. I'm not me to please others anyway. So the pass threads are good in that they can possibly build self esteem and correct problems based on the advice of others, but they do create false expectations because there's always a segment of society that can and will read trans folks.