Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 21, 2014, 02:48:27 PM
I never would Allyda! I know what you mean sweetie. My problem is with those that thinks looks are everything and older members are a punch line and make them discount the belief they have in themselves. We may be older, but I think we are much more secure in ourselves and our lives. Looks are not nearly as important to us as how we feel inside after fighting Dysphoria for so long. Passing is not about looks, but how we all view ourselves. If we are happy no one should discount that because we are not models. Some here love their new lives and may not be able to afford every surgery on the planet. I just feel that someone saying you need this and that or forget transition are just plain wrong and not very supportive. Only my opinion though.

Jessica,

I must respectfully say "WHAT?!?!" 

I want to look great.  I guess I'm shallow but I didn't lose over 90 lbs because I was secure.  It's quite the opposite.  I am totally insecure.  I'm 6'1" with a 36" inseam, killer legs, great ass, large breasts and a face like a Neanderthal. I'm not going to Dr Z to look OK. I'm going to Dr Z to look fantastic.  I spent 12 years in college and it's been 22 years at the laboratory bench, running or directing studies. Then on weekends, I rebuilt my resort.  I paid for what I have with time, sweat, blood and missed fun.  I didn't have a full life as a man, I had in excess of 60 hours a week of work, every week and I started at 12. I didn't even take a vacation until I was over 40.

I could not have children but my wife did.  Her kids are now set.  The grandkids are now set.  Heck, the freaking dog is set. 

As much as possible, I want to live at least part of the life I missed while in denial; I'm going to spend some of the money I have saved.  And my wife, who is looking forward to doing this with me, is finally getting the partner she deserved.

Jessica, I have admired your posts for a long time.  You are wonderful and I am happy that you are a moderator. I too, will be here for a long while. I will help others as best I can both here and where I live. Yet, I am going to play more. Hiding in denial and in my work for 30 years has left a big hole that needs to be filled.  I do intend on filling it.

Hugs,

Jen

I understand that confidence is important and can help influence things, but can it really make us pass?  Doesn't there have to be potential appearance wise to pass to begin with?  If so, doesn't looks matter in this respect as well?  I'm just really confused when people say confidence makes people pass.  Believe me, I'm sure it helps in many ways, but I can't see how it would change how we look.  It just feels like it's probably an important tool and part of the overall package someone shoud strive for rather than everything. Some people seem to believe it's the most important aspect of passing, and that doesn't add up to me.  Like you could be confident as much as you want, but people are going to see what's in front of them.  On the surface, it seems people are not giving their appearance enough credit when it comes to being gendered correctly, though I don't discount there are benefits to being more optimistic and believing yourself.

I seriously ask this as a question because I'm still inexperienced and can only intellectualize some of these things at this time.  I'm just confused how confidence could be more important than appearance with passing.  I think appearance is only a part of things (voice matters too) but I don't see how confidence can play as a big of a role as most claim.  Then again, so many people say it that there is likely truth in it.  And I do think it's an important thing that I need to develop for many reasons regardless.   

Quote from: learningtolive on April 21, 2014, 09:02:43 PM
I'm just confused how confidence could be more important than appearance with passing.   

DISCLAIMOR: THIS POST IS BY A MEMBER AND NOT A MODERATOR GIVING SUSAN'S OPINION OR SITE POLICY.

Would you watch a movie with a really bad insecure actor or a movie where the person totally sells their role? Confidence sells yourself to others and makes others believe you are who and what you are. In my career would you want a Paramedic who is hesitant and unsure or one who comes in, takes control and calms the room? This is what I mean about confidence being the biggest factor to me in passing. If you sell and own it, they will believe.

I will refrain from further posting. Sorry if anyone was offended by my comments as they are mine alone and should not reflect on staff.
Jessica shutting up now.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 21, 2014, 09:02:43 PM
I understand that confidence is important and can help influence things, but can it really make us pass?  Doesn't there have to be potential appearance wise to pass to begin with?  If so, doesn't looks matter in this respect as well?  I'm just really confused when people say confidence makes people pass.  Believe me, I'm sure it helps in many ways, but I can't see how it would change how we look.  It just feels like it's probably an important tool and part of the overall package someone shoud strive for rather than everything. Some people seem to believe it's the most important aspect of passing, and that doesn't add up to me.  Like you could be confident as much as you want, but people are going to see what's in front of them.  On the surface, it seems people are not giving their appearance enough credit when it comes to being gendered correctly, though I don't discount there are benefits to being more optimistic and believing yourself.

I seriously ask this as a question because I'm still inexperienced and can only intellectualize some of these things at this time.  I'm just confused how confidence could be more important than appearance with passing.  I think appearance is only a part of things (voice matters too) but I don't see how confidence can play as a big of a role as most claim.  Then again, so many people say it that there is likely truth in it.  And I do think it's an important thing that I need to develop for many reasons regardless.   

It seems to me that there are three key elements for a person to pass:  Looks, Mannerisms and Confidence and there is a certain amount of each one that must be met or there is failure.   However, at least one of those three elements must be good or even very good.  It's all a trade off thing.

Looks is the shape and over all perceived femaleness of the body.  I look at a lot of women; all have some "female" attributes.  A person needs a few of the attributes to pass.  Got short hair and large breasts??  Female!  Flat chest but large hips?  Female!  There has to be enough of a package the overall effect is female.  Anything beyond that minimum can help offset poor confidence or poor mannerisms.

Mannerisms are the way one walks, talks, stands, uses hand gestures, smiles etc.  They are everything we do other than stand perfectly still.  If one walks female but smiles male? Female.  If one has feminine hand gestures but talks a little dusky?  Female.  If they stand legs spread apart, where are the hands??  Mannerisms is a great place to fail initially.  Be around women and pick up what suits you.  They are also a great place to aid if the look is weak or there is a lack of confidence.

Confidence is the belief in self.  If you don't think you are a woman then you will fail.  If you remotely have the looks and almost have some female mannerisms but a boat load of confidence, you will pass.

My thoughts

Hugs,

Jen

Quote from: learningtolive on April 21, 2014, 09:02:43 PM
I understand that confidence is important and can help influence things, but can it really make us pass?  Doesn't there have to be potential appearance wise to pass to begin with?  If so, doesn't looks matter in this respect as well?  I'm just really confused when people say confidence makes people pass.  Believe me, I'm sure it helps in many ways, but I can't see how it would change how we look.  It just feels like it's probably an important tool and part of the overall package someone shoud strive for rather than everything. Some people seem to believe it's the most important aspect of passing, and that doesn't add up to me.  Like you could be confident as much as you want, but people are going to see what's in front of them.  On the surface, it seems people are not giving their appearance enough credit when it comes to being gendered correctly, though I don't discount there are benefits to being more optimistic and believing yourself.

I seriously ask this as a question because I'm still inexperienced and can only intellectualize some of these things at this time.  I'm just confused how confidence could be more important than appearance with passing.  I think appearance is only a part of things (voice matters too) but I don't see how confidence can play as a big of a role as most claim.  Then again, so many people say it that there is likely truth in it.  And I do think it's an important thing that I need to develop for many reasons regardless.   

You can have all the looks in the world, but with little confidence, you are never going to pass.. On the flip side, if your passability is marginal, as mine is, confidence will get you across the line. But then, I have a somewhat strange attitude to life and being trans. I'm a woman, a mother, a grandmother, a friend, a lover. You'll notice I don't mention anything about being trans.. It's not a label I wear - not anywhere but here. I own who I am 100%.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 21, 2014, 09:24:53 PM
DISCLAIMOR: THIS POST IS BY A MEMBER AND NOT A MODERATOR GIVING SUSAN'S OPINION OR SITE POLICY.

Would you watch a movie with a really bad insecure actor or a movie where the person totally sells their role? Confidence sells yourself to others and makes others believe you are who and what you are. In my career would you want a Paramedic who is hesitant and unsure or one who comes in, takes control and calms the room? This is what I mean about confidence being the biggest factor to me in passing. If you sell and own it, they will believe.

I will refrain from further posting. Sorry if anyone was offended by my comments as they are mine alone and should not reflect on staff.
Jessica shutting up now.

Don't apologize, you said nothing wrong or hurtful.  I'm picking people's brains cause I imagine other people have more direct experience to share what they've learned by actually attempting to pass.

I see what you mean.  Confidence is important and it's been one of the things holding me back in many ways.  I have no doubt that it can help reinforce things and communicate what you are looking to show.  It's just that I think appearance plays a big role too.  For example, you may be very confident, but the changes to your appearance matter too.  For example, you've shown your own before and after pick.  Confidence and happiness may have helped shape you new life style, but all of the physical changes mattered too in your being embraced as Jessica, right?  I guess I would just assume it's a mixture of things and they aren't exlusive.  Still, I feel like apperance without confidence can work too.  For the most part, people gender with their eyes and ears.  They intpret the person overall by their character, mannerisms and behavior.  At least, that's what I would think. 

Quote from: kelly_aus on April 21, 2014, 09:31:00 PM
You can have all the looks in the world, but with little confidence, you are never going to pass.. On the flip side, if your passability is marginal, as mine is, confidence will get you across the line. But then, I have a somewhat strange attitude to life and being trans. I'm a woman, a mother, a grandmother, a friend, a lover. You'll notice I don't mention anything about being trans.. It's not a label I wear - not anywhere but here. I own who I am 100%.

But aren't there plenty of cis women without confidence that pass?  I definetly think confidence is important to acquire and I realize I need more it, but I've seen cis women with anxiety problems and poor self esteem and it doesn't out them.  Sorry, I'm being a pain, it's just confusing to me.  Maybe I will only really understand these views when I experience more.

Quote from: JLT1 on April 21, 2014, 09:29:14 PM
It seems to me that there are three key elements for a person to pass:  Looks, Mannerisms and Confidence and there is a certain amount of each one that must be met or there is failure.   However, at least one of those three elements must be good or even very good.  It's all a trade off thing.

Looks is the shape and over all perceived femaleness of the body.  I look at a lot of women; all have some "female" attributes.  A person needs a few of the attributes to pass.  Got short hair and large breasts??  Female!  Flat chest but large hips?  Female!  There has to be enough of a package the overall effect is female.  Anything beyond that minimum can help offset poor confidence or poor mannerisms.

Mannerisms are the way one walks, talks, stands, uses hand gestures, smiles etc.  They are everything we do other than stand perfectly still.  If one walks female but smiles male? Female.  If one has feminine hand gestures but talks a little dusky?  Female.  If they stand legs spread apart, where are the hands??  Mannerisms is a great place to fail initially.  Be around women and pick up what suits you.  They are also a great place to aid if the look is weak or there is a lack of confidence.

Confidence is the belief in self.  If you don't think you are a woman then you will fail.  If you remotely have the looks and almost have some female mannerisms but a boat load of confidence, you will pass.

My thoughts

Hugs,

Jen

All this makes sense.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 21, 2014, 09:24:53 PM
DISCLAIMOR: THIS POST IS BY A MEMBER AND NOT A MODERATOR GIVING SUSAN'S OPINION OR SITE POLICY.

Would you watch a movie with a really bad insecure actor or a movie where the person totally sells their role? Confidence sells yourself to others and makes others believe you are who and what you are. In my career would you want a Paramedic who is hesitant and unsure or one who comes in, takes control and calms the room? This is what I mean about confidence being the biggest factor to me in passing. If you sell and own it, they will believe.

I will refrain from further posting. Sorry if anyone was offended by my comments as they are mine alone and should not reflect on staff.
Jessica shutting up now.

Ummm...the long hair, the breasts, the excellent makeup and what looks to be a nice rear don't hurt either....

Hugs,

Jen

Ohh..Missed the cute smile...  My bad.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 21, 2014, 09:40:12 PM
But aren't there plenty of cis women without confidence that pass?  I definetly think confidence is important to acquire and I realize I need more it, but I've seen cis women with anxiety problems and poor self esteem and it doesn't out them.  Sorry, I'm being a pain, it's just confusing to me.  Maybe I will only really understand these views when I experience more.

The reason it doesn't make sense is because it doesn't make sense. You can look 100 percent cis but not pass because you don't have confidence? I'm sorry that line doesn't work for me. I  have very little self esteem and yet pass all the time. Every time. I mean to believe otherise is to belive that there is an inherent difference between cis women and trans women and that a trans woman can never look as good as a cis woman. Therefore, a cis woman can have low self esteem and never be called a man, but the second a trans woman flinches, she's clocked...sorry the whole notion just hurts my head. It's spinning in circles. If you pass, you pass. That simple. If you voice doesn't pass, and you pass, you may no longer pass. if both your voice and face and body pass, you pass and can grab your crotch and say suck my fat one and people will laugh. I once told the police I was adjusting my testicles not hiding drugs and they told me to watch my crude little mouth. I wasn't even trying to pass yet passed. Go figure.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 21, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
If you pass, you pass. That simple. If you voice doesn't pass, and you pass, you may no longer pass. if both your voice and face and body pass, you pass and can grab your crotch and say suck my fat one and people will laugh. I once told the police I was adjusting my testicles not hiding drugs and they told me to watch my crude little mouth. I wasn't even trying to pass yet passed. Go figure.

Still, I'd had loved to see the look on that officer's face, lol!

I go out nearly every day to different places sometimes for work as I did today, or for groceries, etc. I'm always gendered correctly as female (I hate the term: "Pass") wherever I go despite my lower voice. Now, it's worth mentioning that I have kind of a scratchy voice that is kind of low in volume and I have to repeat myself sometimes to be heard especially if there's a lot of background noise. However getting to my point, I feel a lot with me has to do with how I present myself with my devil may care attitude and I don't care what the public thinks personality. I just be me, no more, no less, in public and it seems people overlook my voice and continue to gender me correctly as female.

Quote from: learningtolive on April 21, 2014, 09:40:12 PM
  Confidence and happiness may have helped shape you new life style, but all of the physical changes mattered too in your being embraced as Jessica, right?

Nope! Went full time only two months into HRT. Didn't care what people thought I looked like, I was me and they could get over it or deal with me.

Quote from: JLT1 on April 21, 2014, 09:47:38 PM
Ummm...the long hair, the breasts, the excellent makeup and what looks to be a nice rear don't hurt either....Ohh..Missed the cute smile...  My bad.

All fake, but the smile!

When one is seeking support, there is nothing to be gained by not being honest, therefore I say it is uncommon to not be honest.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 22, 2014, 12:30:26 AM
All fake, but the smile!

Your heart isn't fake.  It says to me that you are pretty where it counts the most.

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 21, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
The reason it doesn't make sense is because it doesn't make sense. You can look 100 percent cis but not pass because you don't have confidence? I'm sorry that line doesn't work for me. I  have very little self esteem and yet pass all the time. Every time. I mean to believe otherise is to belive that there is an inherent difference between cis women and trans women and that a trans woman can never look as good as a cis woman. Therefore, a cis woman can have low self esteem and never be called a man, but the second a trans woman flinches, she's clocked...sorry the whole notion just hurts my head. It's spinning in circles. If you pass, you pass. That simple. If you voice doesn't pass, and you pass, you may no longer pass. if both your voice and face and body pass, you pass and can grab your crotch and say suck my fat one and people will laugh. I once told the police I was adjusting my testicles not hiding drugs and they told me to watch my crude little mouth. I wasn't even trying to pass yet passed. Go figure.

"Confidence" is a terrible word because it does not mean anything nearly as specific as it sounds like it might.

In the sense you describe, Joanna, confidence is not required. In Jessica's sense, it is. You are both right.

Belief in your self-worth is different than belief in your ability to "Pass" all the time. Both aid in passabity. Neither has anything to do with beauty, or female impersonation.

The word, "Confidence" is remarkably confusing and misleading.

The more you worry about not passing, the less you will pass. The more you worry about enjoying yourself, the more you will. 

Quote from: Tori on April 22, 2014, 01:31:36 AM
The more you worry about not passing, the less you will pass. The more you worry about enjoying yourself, the more you will.

Couldn't have put it better myself..

How many people that ask if they can/are pass are getting any real life experiences? I mean, it's one thing to say all you need is a bunch of confidence and believe in yourself and that means you pass, but it's different out in the world. I think that people asking aren't really out for the most part and aren't sure. But maybe that's just me. This thread has become a debate on what people should define as passing instead of if the threads are useful to them or not.

I've sat with people who didn't pass and talked with them and know they are beautiful people, but it's still difficult. I've treated totally unpassable first timers like they are prom queens. I remember when a lady did my makeup for me when I was clueless and she treated me like a doll. It felt good. I didn't care that I was paying her for a service and that she was putting me on or whatever. I needed hope. I needed courage. I needed people to accept me. And maybe that's what people get from those threads.

I know there are more serious passing questions from people who are into transition and want feedback on particular features. I think that's the place to be brutally honest. But when you're just getting up the strength to ask if you could someday pass and when you only know passing by your face, then it's cool to be assuring. Make a "how can I pass better" thread or posters can ask for help in their own threads. Leave the people who are just starting to try it on with a sense of hope. For Christ sake the world is going to brutalize the hell out of them sooner or later anyway.

For an extrovert like me, passing matters less, because I like getting to know people and I don't particularly care if they know if I am trans or not, in most situations at least. I think no less of myself for being in transition than I did before I started. If other people do not like my trans-ness, they still might like me.

I do not like being clocked from afar. I do not particularly like needing to have a circle of awareness that say, crosses the street.

On a good day, I pass to me. On a great day, nobody else seems to notice.

Fact is I have a wife, and friends from before transition. I would have to start over in order to pass or go stealth and I do not wish to start over.

Sometimes, people notice something is up with me, sometimes, to my surprise they clearly do not. The vast majority of the time, if they are not accepting, they are polite.

I have also been violently injured for being trans.

The more I pass to myself, the more I go outside, the more I keep transitioning... the more I pass, period.

I do not participate in that thread because I neither want the criticism nor do I wish to stunt a vulnerable transitioner with my opinion. 

It is not all looks.

Quote from: TiffanyT on April 22, 2014, 02:08:15 AM
How many people that ask if they can/are pass are getting any real life experiences? I mean, it's one thing to say all you need is a bunch of confidence and believe in yourself and that means you pass, but it's different out in the world. I think that people asking aren't really out for the most part and aren't sure. But maybe that's just me. This thread has become a debate on what people should define as passing instead of if the threads are useful to them or not.

I've sat with people who didn't pass and talked with them and know they are beautiful people, but it's still difficult. I've treated totally unpassable first timers like they are prom queens. I remember when a lady did my makeup for me when I was clueless and she treated me like a doll. It felt good. I didn't care that I was paying her for a service and that she was putting me on or whatever. I needed hope. I needed courage. I needed people to accept me. And maybe that's what people get from those threads.

I know there are more serious passing questions from people who are into transition and want feedback on particular features. I think that's the place to be brutally honest. But when you're just getting up the strength to ask if you could someday pass and when you only know passing by your face, then it's cool to be assuring. Make a "how can I pass better" thread or posters can ask for help in their own threads. Leave the people who are just starting to try it on with a sense of hope. For Christ sake the world is going to brutalize the hell out of them sooner or later anyway.

It helped me, but that doesn't mean prople were honest about how well I passed exactly, it just worked because I never didn't pass. But it gave me just enough confidence to make the switch, so it might have been a disaster OTOH if I was still not passing or not fully.

Quote from: TiffanyT on April 22, 2014, 02:08:15 AM
How many people that ask if they can/are pass are getting any real life experiences? I mean, it's one thing to say all you need is a bunch of confidence and believe in yourself and that means you pass, but it's different out in the world. I think that people asking aren't really out for the most part and aren't sure. But maybe that's just me. This thread has become a debate on what people should define as passing instead of if the threads are useful to them or not.

I've sat with people who didn't pass and talked with them and know they are beautiful people, but it's still difficult. I've treated totally unpassable first timers like they are prom queens. I remember when a lady did my makeup for me when I was clueless and she treated me like a doll. It felt good. I didn't care that I was paying her for a service and that she was putting me on or whatever. I needed hope. I needed courage. I needed people to accept me. And maybe that's what people get from those threads.

I know there are more serious passing questions from people who are into transition and want feedback on particular features. I think that's the place to be brutally honest. But when you're just getting up the strength to ask if you could someday pass and when you only know passing by your face, then it's cool to be assuring. Make a "how can I pass better" thread or posters can ask for help in their own threads. Leave the people who are just starting to try it on with a sense of hope. For Christ sake the world is going to brutalize the hell out of them sooner or later anyway.

Good point.  I agree.  To be honest, all the feedback I've recieved here did make me feel a million times better, especially considering I put up photos that really weren't flattering.  It gave me some hope and even though I feel bad about myself and scared, I do know that I will come out okay in the end. 

Quote from: sad panda on April 22, 2014, 03:24:44 AM
It helped me, but that doesn't mean prople were honest about how well I passed exactly, it just worked because I never didn't pass. But it gave me just enough confidence to make the switch, so it might have been a disaster OTOH if I was still not passing or not fully.

I think another problem, though, is that we can be our own worst enemies.  Like someone may give you an honest opinion that you may not really share about yourself.  That was my issue with most of the feedback I got.  I believe people were honest, even if I a bit positive and trying to give me a gentle push, but I can't see those qualities at all.  We tend to emphasize our own body issues and make it a million times worse than it is.  So, I don't know if it's people aren't being honest, or we just can't accept what they feel.  Everyone views things differently.  Also, it's hard to judge everything about a person through a few pictures.  We know ourselves much more intimately.

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on April 22, 2014, 12:27:20 AM
Nope! Went full time only two months into HRT. Didn't care what people thought I looked like, I was me and they could get over it or deal with me.

That's cool.  I just think that's a different thing than passing.  Passing is more about being able to convince people you are a cis girl.  I believe you have done that as well, but really your looks had to have played a role in them saying that.  Appearances do help give people clues to someones's gender.  And I would wager that your confidence and behavior contributed to passing, but your appearance was also an important part.  For example, you've shown us your before picture.  Would you feel comfortable trying to pass without the changes you have made?  I don't know, but I'd assume not.  That's why appearances matter with passing. Being confident and getting people to accept you as a women is great, it's just not exactly the same thing as passing or blending because it's sort of a seperate thing. 

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 21, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
The reason it doesn't make sense is because it doesn't make sense. You can look 100 percent cis but not pass because you don't have confidence? I'm sorry that line doesn't work for me. I  have very little self esteem and yet pass all the time. Every time. I mean to believe otherise is to belive that there is an inherent difference between cis women and trans women and that a trans woman can never look as good as a cis woman. Therefore, a cis woman can have low self esteem and never be called a man, but the second a trans woman flinches, she's clocked...sorry the whole notion just hurts my head. It's spinning in circles. If you pass, you pass. That simple. If you voice doesn't pass, and you pass, you may no longer pass. if both your voice and face and body pass, you pass and can grab your crotch and say suck my fat one and people will laugh. I once told the police I was adjusting my testicles not hiding drugs and they told me to watch my crude little mouth. I wasn't even trying to pass yet passed. Go figure.

I'm inclined to agree with you Joanna.  At least I hope you're right.  I'd like to be able to build confidence as I go by my successes rather than become overly confident and then move forward.  That will take forever and I doubt my self esteem will be there beforehand.  That;s something I will need to develop in time.  I'm confident though that I'm getting closer and soon enough I'll be able to get out of this funk and live a happy life as myself.  Just a little more effort, work, and time are needed.  Hopefully I can be full time this summer. 

Quote from: learningtolive on April 22, 2014, 04:07:58 AM
That's cool.  I just think that's a different thing than passing.  Passing is more about being able to convince people you are a cis girl.  I believe you have done that as well, but really your looks had to have played a role in them saying that.  Appearances do help give people clues to someones's gender.  And I would wager that your confidence and behavior contributed to passing, but your appearance was also an important part.  For example, you've shown us your before picture.  Would you feel comfortable trying to pass without the changes you have made?  I don't know, but I'd assume not.  That's why appearances matter with passing. Being confident and getting people to accept you as a women is great, it's just not exactly the same thing as passing or blending because it's sort of a seperate thing.

I'd probably have written 'Passing is more about other people seeing you as a woman.'

There are pics of me floating around the site.. Based on some of those, I was told I would never pass unless I took surgical options X, Y and Z. My life experience is different. Would you beleive I get correctly gendered even with stubble? So, for me, it appears that appearance, whilst it plays a part, is not the Holy Grail of passing. Having a personality that is known for entering a room before I do might have something to do with it, also.

You might not beleive the personality comment, but around here I play the blunt, cynical bitch - because sometimes it's needed.