Wow. Thanks for all of the info in one place Colleen♡Callie. I too have done much research on the subject prior to starting my transition, thinking that surgery might be necessary also. I was stumped by the lack of surgeons for facial masculinization when there are surgeons for facial feminization, then I researched and discovered the drastic effects testosterone has. Thank you for taking the time to type that all out.

No problem Sebryn.

Colleen♡Callie I appreciate your help.

I need to say I'm not a transgender, I'm actually a male. Why did I post on this forum? because I thought the people here will have an idea about my OP question, after all this is a FtM trans forum.
I lack masculinity and I have occasionally been told that I can pass as a girl. I'm very androgynous, not 100% but like 70%-80% androgynous, female like skin, height, eyes, skull, hands and arms also my bone density is bellow average, It's hard for me to gain lean body mass.

It seems like most trans here look more masculine then I am and some can even grow better beard then me!   people here don't even consider facial surgery because they are happy with their masculinity.
The thing is I'm 24 years old and I got my hormones levels tested last year:


my T and E were always high, about in the same level. In this blood test the E was higher then normal so I went to the endocrinologist and told her about my androgenic worries and I wanted her to prescribe me medications that will lower my E / increase my T or both, she refused and told me that the high E results are in the standard deviation and that I'm healthy that I had a proper puberty and I don't need anything.

So why do I look androgynous if I have high T? Will my jaw and brow-ridge pop out in the next 5 years? Is my body not fully receptive to T?  Do I have some kind of undiagnosed syndrome?
This is why I doubted you at the beginning.

I'm not a doctor, so I can't diagnose you with any conditions.  It is very likely that you aren't very receptive to T, which could explain the high E too.  Excess testosterone will eventually convert into estrogen.  Something else entirely could be at play here.

I can't say.  I couldn't say even if I were medically trained to do so, not over the internet at least.

The way T effects the body is why you won't find a surgeon with experience in Facial Masculinization.  Not like you will for feminization.  Sorry.  That's not to say you won't find surgeons willing to do what you want, you're just not going to have examples of masculinization surgeries they've done previously to guide your choice.

Colleen, what awesome posts. I found that really helpful.

Quote from: Dani20 on April 20, 2014, 02:36:39 PM

It seems like most trans here look more masculine then I am and some can even grow better beard then me!   people here don't even consider facial surgery because they are happy with their masculinity.

Umm... probably this post just hit me at the wrong moment because I find it upsetting. I understand that you are struggling with an issue and meant no offense.

If we were happy with our masculinity, we wouldn't be taking hormones. We wouldn't be experiencing gender dysphoria. We wouldn't go to the lengths we do. Did you read the text with those pictures? Quite a few of those beards are glued on hair. I haven't been able to post a picture recently because I look at them and see female features and hate it. I can't wait for testosterone to change my features.

Instead of looking for surgery, how about you go to a different doctor first. If you can fly anywhere for surgery, you can find a doctor who can help you understand what treatment you need whether it be surgery, hormones or something else we don't know about.

I'm 5'1". I might be the oldest guy on the forum. I certainly started T the latest in terms of my age. I don't think I was masculine looking at all before T, though perhaps androgynous. I never was read as male before T. I am now read 97% of the time as male. I never got the idea of how long you've been on t, maybe I missed something.

There might be someone who would do surgery, but it is pretty much entirely unnecessary in FTMs. I'm sure someone would do it, but not sure how ethical they are.

It's possible you could gain in an inch or something, but at a certain point the growth plates close and you won't. There are many short cismen.

--Jay

Quote from: Dani20 on April 20, 2014, 02:36:39 PM
Colleen♡Callie I appreciate your help.

I need to say I'm not a transgender, I'm actually a male. Why did I post on this forum? because I thought the people here will have an idea about my OP question, after all this is a FtM trans forum.
I lack masculinity and I have occasionally been told that I can pass as a girl. I'm very androgynous, not 100% but like 70%-80% androgynous, female like skin, height, eyes, skull, hands and arms also my bone density is bellow average, It's hard for me to gain lean body mass.

It seems like most trans here look more masculine then I am and some can even grow better beard then me!   people here don't even consider facial surgery because they are happy with their masculinity.
The thing is I'm 24 years old and I got my hormones levels tested last year:


my T and E were always high, about in the same level. In this blood test the E was higher then normal so I went to the endocrinologist and told her about my androgenic worries and I wanted her to prescribe me medications that will lower my E / increase my T or both, she refused and told me that the high E results are in the standard deviation and that I'm healthy that I had a proper puberty and I don't need anything.

So why do I look androgynous if I have high T? Will my jaw and brow-ridge pop out in the next 5 years? Is my body not fully receptive to T?  Do I have some kind of undiagnosed syndrome?
This is why I doubted you at the beginning.

You say you're genetically male then any decent plastic surgeon who specializes in facial structure should be able to help you achieve a more desired appearance.  As for hormone levels, I can't help you there.  There are conditions that cause disruption in the bodies ability to use T, though it could be genetic.  I assume you've looked at your family members and noted either a similar appearance or dissimilar appearance.  For example, even if I'd been born a genetic male, I would still have had large eyes and long lashes because they're genetic traits.  I'd have been a doe-eyed boy instead of a doe-eyed girl.  I'd still also be short.  Perhaps not 5'4" short, but likely under 6' all the same because people on both sides of my family run short and slender(my aunt is 4'11" and built like a bird!)  I'd also still have an ectomorphic build because that wouldn't change just because I happened to have an XY rather than an XX.

So, in short, you could just naturally have an effeminate look like myself.  There are a lot of guys who are more 'pretty' than 'rugged'.  Some of us are born to be Elijah Wood rather than Clint Eastwood.

Well I guess I missed that you are genetically male. Not sure how but oh well. First of all, it's still possible to have might have some condition, that doesn't allow you to process T as well. There are lots of people who do not process it at the same rate. Your high estrogen levels indicate *somethign*. You probably need to find an endocrinologist vs a surgeon, as mid 20s is not too late for this sort of thing.

Also there is a HUGE range on what is acceptable or male enough. If you look at movie stars (as one class of people) you see guys who are VERY brawny and he man looking and others who are soft and more androgynous. All of which falls in the range of "normal".

OTOH, you might take these labs to an endocrinologist, as you may have a treatable condition. As you see from people posting here (check out "before" and "after") none of us guys have had facial surgery, but T has a (lesser) or greater) effect. Other things are just stuff like hair cut, glasses (squared versus) round, taking out earrings, etc. Some people LIKE this stuff regardless of what it might do to feminize someone, but if you are really concerned you might look into this. Also if you post pictures people might have suggestions. I personally thing your concerns are valid, but not sure that surgery should be your first consideration. It is painful and highly $$$.

--Jay

I have to admit that I am a little annoyed that you did not tell us at the beginning that you are genetically male.  People put energy into responding based on the assumption that you were genetically female and were not yet on testosterone.

It wasn't an oversight, you intentionally did not tell us.  You probably were worried people wouldn't respond to you if you were honest about who you were.  You're wrong.  People would have.

The answer is easy.  Go to an endocrinologist.  If you don't like what they have to say, find another one who will respond to your concerns.

Quote from: Dani20 on April 20, 2014, 02:36:39 PM
Colleen♡Callie I appreciate your help.

I need to say I'm not a transgender, I'm actually a male. Why did I post on this forum? because I thought the people here will have an idea about my OP question, after all this is a FtM trans forum.
I lack masculinity and I have occasionally been told that I can pass as a girl. I'm very androgynous, not 100% but like 70%-80% androgynous, female like skin, height, eyes, skull, hands and arms also my bone density is bellow average, It's hard for me to gain lean body mass.

It seems like most trans here look more masculine then I am and some can even grow better beard then me!   people here don't even consider facial surgery because they are happy with their masculinity.
The thing is I'm 24 years old and I got my hormones levels tested last year:


my T and E were always high, about in the same level. In this blood test the E was higher then normal so I went to the endocrinologist and told her about my androgenic worries and I wanted her to prescribe me medications that will lower my E / increase my T or both, she refused and told me that the high E results are in the standard deviation and that I'm healthy that I had a proper puberty and I don't need anything.

So why do I look androgynous if I have high T? Will my jaw and brow-ridge pop out in the next 5 years? Is my body not fully receptive to T?  Do I have some kind of undiagnosed syndrome?
This is why I doubted you at the beginning.

Thanks you all for the advises, I didn't mean to annoy you or anything I just didn't think it's something worse mentioning, I asked about surgeries I didn't have an idea that the replies will be about hormones.
Anyway Colleen♡Callie's info informed me and helped other users too.
I'm aware that some men have a combination of feminine and masculine features and others have only masculine features, however those with the combination still have SOME bone growth and dimorphic features, you will very rarely see someone, let alone celebrities that has 0 dimorphism.
Well I will take you advice and will do the blood work again and go to a different endocrinologist, I really hope that this will be solved without surgery, it's really frustrating to be born a man without properly developing into one.. knowing that I actually have high T in me... 

Anyway I guess that if the doctors will have no answers then my best bet will be a surgeon that does FFS right? If he is good at removing the bones he should an idea on how to add them?

About photos:




I blurred my eyes, but they are feminine looking. Also I had a badly done rhinoplasty which was a big mistake that made me more feminine I will have to do a second one to fix it..

In all honesty your face looks fine to me.  The features aren't super strong and chiseled, but they aren't weak and don't look feminine to me. 

You posted on a board for trans men (people who are transitioning to male) about facial masculinization surgery and didn't think people would reply assuming you to be a trans man and advising you to give hormones more of a shot?  That's kind of bewildering.

It's actually not uncommon for people that aren't as receptive to testosterone to have high levels, because the testosterone is being produced at a normal rate, but being absorbed at a lower rate.  People with AIS have high high levels of T, because they are producing it fine, and not absorbing it at all, or to a much lesser extent. 


Given that you are genetically male, and have high T levels, it may be a case of not being overly receptive to T.  Not to the degree of having a condition like AIS.  Even without a condition, it's still as scale on how predisposed your are to absorb Testosterone.  I still would talk to a endo first, as there might be forms of male hrt that are more effectively absorbed?  I'm not that knowledgeable on variations of HRT for men and FtM.  But I know on the MtF side there are a number of various types that all work slightly differently.

However, yeah.  It would have been a bit easier to respond knowing you were born male to begin with, as my answers and a lot of others here were building responses on the assumption you were an FtM looking to transition and appear male.

Well I don't think you look like some sort super macho guy, but you are certainly in the realm of guys that I see around all the time--cis friends of mine and acquaintances. I don't know why it's an issue. Do a google image search of these guys for instance. These guys are known public figures in different fields (they are all AFAIK straight men):  Zak George, Malcolm Gladwell, Sam Killerman, Jared Leto, etc.

High T can turn into estrogen. That's in the range of possibility, but you need an endocrinologist for that, as there may be a reason.

I agree with others here that telling the truth would have been nice. It was a little strange that you wouldn't do that.

BTW, much harder to ADD bone than subtract it. They do it with various special situations, like babies born with birth defects. Not sure what they put in.

--Jay

Add bone? I don't think that would be done actually. Possibly silicon implants. I know they can do things like cheek implants and chin (I think) implants. Silicon of course and not bone. I'm not entirely sure plastic surgeons would do something like bone implants. Someone can come along and correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the others who replied are more likely correct. Excess T converts to E. Too high T = feminine features, even in cismales. Look at body builders who abuse T for examples of this. They aren't using E or other drugs to feminize themselves yet they grow boobs. Go see an endocrinologist that specializes in hormones. Heck go see an endocrinologist that treats trans patients if you can find one. They might have a better idea of how to go about treating any potential hormone imbalance you may have.

Btw to me you look like an average young man to me. Maybe younger than your age depending on how old you are but I don't think anyone would ever ma'am or miss you even if you shaved.

Quote from: Sebryn on April 22, 2014, 01:23:04 AM
Add bone? I don't think that would be done actually. Possibly silicon implants. I know they can do things like cheek implants and chin (I think) implants. Silicon of course and not bone. I'm not entirely sure plastic surgeons would do something like bone implants. Someone can come along and correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, I think they'd need to use something else for the bone, not actual bone.

--Jay

Quote from: Dani20 on April 21, 2014, 09:29:47 PM




I blurred my eyes, but they are feminine looking. Also I had a badly done rhinoplasty which was a big mistake that made me more feminine I will have to do a second one to fix it..

You pass entirely. I don't get why this thread is necessary and I think you need to research more on how impactful hormones can be on the human body. There are some biological factors, such as bone structure, that will change subtly over time. If you're really still too insecure with yourself and feel aesthetically misrepresented after at least five years of being on hormones knowing you have regular to high levels in accordance with your biological age, then perhaps it's a serious concern...but for some reason, I don't think that would be the case.

My brow ridge is definitely more prominent than when I started HRT. Do most men in your family look as masculine as the man on the far right? You have to consider that if you're comparing yourself to someone who is in their mid-30s, assuming they don't have a hormonal disorder, they've had normal levels of masculinizing hormones in their body for at least a decade longer than you. As many are saying, just give it time.

Quote from: supremecatoverlord on April 22, 2014, 06:59:55 PM
You pass entirely. I don't get why this thread is necessary and I think you need to research more on how impactful hormones can be on the human body. There are some biological factors, such as bone structure, that will change subtly over time. If you're really still too insecure with yourself and feel aesthetically misrepresented after at least five years of being on hormones knowing you have regular to high levels in accordance with your biological age, then perhaps it's a serious concern...but for some reason, I don't think that would be the case.

My brow ridge is definitely more prominent than when I started HRT. Do most men in your family look as masculine as the man on the far right? You have to consider that if you're comparing yourself to someone who is in their mid-30s, assuming they don't have a hormonal disorder, they've had normal levels of masculinizing hormones in their body for at least a decade longer than you. As many are saying, just give it time.

Dani is actually genetically male.  He shared this with us on post #22.

Quote from: Brett on April 22, 2014, 09:32:24 PM
Dani is actually genetically male.  He shared this with us on post #22.

Ah, I must've missed that and wasn't expecting someone cisgendered to be posting on a forum about a surgery that effects next to none of the men on a hormone regimen. *scratches head*

Welp!

Quote from: supremecatoverlord on April 22, 2014, 10:05:50 PM
Ah, I must've missed that and wasn't expecting someone cisgendered to be posting on a forum about a surgery that effects next to none of the men on a hormone regimen. *scratches head*

Welp!

I made an appointment with an endo that has 10 years experience with trans, I hope that she will be able to help and if yes that I didn't miss the train because I'll be 24 soon..
I once read that there are around 1000 different kinds of anabolic steroids that body builders cycle between them so that kinda give me hope.

Well thank you guys for the encouraging comments and the help.

@Colleen♡Callie , Do you have an idea if there might be a connection between HGH and IGF levels / receptiveness to the subject of discussion?