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Do you think people are honest in the passing threads? And do you see a problem?

Started by Nero, April 17, 2014, 12:38:06 PM

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Are people honest in these threads?

I often see responses I believe to be flat out lies and I think it's detrimental.
I often see responses I believe to be flat out lies, but I don't really see a problem with it.
I think most people are honest in their responses.
They're just 'feel good' threads, doesn't matter if people are less than honest.
Sometimes people are a little too 'optimistic' in their responses, but I don't see a problem.
I actually think people are TOO honest in these threads and it's harmful.
I don't read the mtf passing threads or I don't have an opinion about it. Just want to see the results.

Ltl89

Quote from: kelly_aus on April 22, 2014, 04:57:21 AM
I'd probably have written 'Passing is more about other people seeing you as a woman.'

There are pics of me floating around the site.. Based on some of those, I was told I would never pass unless I took surgical options X, Y and Z. My life experience is different. Would you beleive I get correctly gendered even with stubble? So, for me, it appears that appearance, whilst it plays a part, is not the Holy Grail of passing. Having a personality that is known for entering a room before I do might have something to do with it, also.

You might not beleive the personality comment, but around here I play the blunt, cynical bitch - because sometimes it's needed.

I believe you.  I'm sure all of these things play a role and that appearance isn't everything.  I'm just saying it's something and a big one if that.  But I think given enough changes to it, many of us have the potential to blend.  Hopefully I will be able to do that very soon for myself.

And you aren't a bitch Kelly.  I appreciate your feedback.  It's just hard for me to absorb this stuff and maybe my lack of experience shows why I can't fully appreciate all the comments and experiences.  I know I talk a lot and ask many questions, but I do try to learn from others even if it's hard for me to get passed my own drama. 
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innainka

what I will write here may be taken as harsh but such is the average onlooker on any given street.

Confidence will do you good, its a fact, however it will do nothing to how you appear to the keen eye of the person who is simply indifferent yet who posses one of the most fundamental visual brain functions, an ability to decipher gender in under a second.

If an individual lacks one or more of skills of BEING a WOMAN, then red light goes on and further interrogation will follow. Such as movement, facial and body geometry, tonality of voice, etc.

Since this is about the PASSING THREAD, and not how confident you carry your self, visual clues have nothing to do with confidence or lack of!

Unfortunately, most will have to settle for confidence and grow a thick skin, as the world isn't going to change as quickly as we might like it to, if ever. But as I have deciphered, it is possible to change who I appeared as, to stand congruent with the stereotype of the world we occupy. 

I now reap the fruits of the path paved with thorns, but I am on the other side now, and must say it was worth it!
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Carrie Liz

Quote from: Joanna Dark on April 21, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
The reason it doesn't make sense is because it doesn't make sense. You can look 100 percent cis but not pass because you don't have confidence? I'm sorry that line doesn't work for me. I  have very little self esteem and yet pass all the time. Every time. I mean to believe otherise is to belive that there is an inherent difference between cis women and trans women and that a trans woman can never look as good as a cis woman. Therefore, a cis woman can have low self esteem and never be called a man, but the second a trans woman flinches, she's clocked...sorry the whole notion just hurts my head. It's spinning in circles. If you pass, you pass. That simple. If you voice doesn't pass, and you pass, you may no longer pass. if both your voice and face and body pass, you pass and can grab your crotch and say suck my fat one and people will laugh. I once told the police I was adjusting my testicles not hiding drugs and they told me to watch my crude little mouth. I wasn't even trying to pass yet passed. Go figure.

The thing is, Joanna, that not all of us do pass completely visually. We might be more in the middle, and people can't necessarily tell whether we are women or men by first glace. And then confidence and other gender cues do become very important.

It goes in a heirarchy. First people look at you. If they can't tell what gender you are from that, that's when they start to look for other cues like how we walk, how we speak, our mannerisms, our voices, etc.

There were many times where I was looking at an extremely butch police officer, and couldn't tell whether she was a man or a woman, and it wasn't until she opened her mouth to say something that I mentally said to myself "oh, okay, she's a woman."

So you're right, for those who pass as cis visually, it is nearly impossible to not pass through mannerisms and other things. You may seem abrasive or weird, but people won't question your gender. But again, a lot of us, and just about everyone who is early in transition (which are generally the people we're giving advice to in the first place,) do not have that privilege. We have various body features that probably make people question us, and therefore they're looking for secondary gender cues in order to determine what we are. And in that early-in-transition state where you don't visually conform to the gender norm, confidence is EVERYTHING.

For example... I did not conform to the gender norm as a middle schooler. And people ripped me apart because of it, because I was a sensitive kid without self-confidence. And therefore when people teased me about my appearance, I was emotionally-fragile, and so people knew that they could get away with it. And everyone quarantined me as a weirdo, and I was not accepted. In college, however, there was a girl who basically you could NOT tell what gender she was just by looking at her. She wore long basketball shorts, baggy t-shirts, and huge shoes all the time, kept her hair short, and had no visual body curves. It took me almost an entire day to figure out what her gender was. (She does still identify as female.) The thing is, though, unlike me, she wasn't sensitive about it. She had more of what I'll call the "gay attitude" of always having some witty remark to give back to people who questioned her, and very much a social presence of "this is who I am. My lack of gender conformity doesn't matter to me, why the hell should it matter to anyone else either?" She was just so confident, so completely not caring what other people thought about her. And with that kind of mindset, it basically became impossible to say anything about her appearance and mannerisms, because you knew that she wouldn't care.

So yeah... although it won't change how people are seeing you, it will DEFINITELY change how they treat you. If you're sensitive and lack self-confidence like me, people take that as a free invitation to mock you and treat you like a weirdo. If you're like my college friend, though, people won't give two cares about it, because they'll accept that it's just who you are.
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David27

As others have stated confidence is key. A passing thread where someone gets complements and feedback is probably the most ideal way to go about it. Explaining why person X passes to you or what made person X not pass can be beneficial to their transition. However, I do think that things that indicated not passing should be stated in a way that isn't degrading. Ex: waxing brows will make your features look more feminine would be helpful feedback.

I think in the MtF forum there are more honest replies with better feedback. I think that the FtM forum could get some pointers from y'all because I think many times over there people aren't honest (or I am just good at picking out feminine features) or they don't mention what makes a person pass/not pass as well as you gals.
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Shantel

Quote from: David27 on April 22, 2014, 05:34:31 PM
As others have stated confidence is key. A passing thread where someone gets complements and feedback is probably the most ideal way to go about it. Explaining why person X passes to you or what made person X not pass can be beneficial to their transition. However, I do think that things that indicated not passing should be stated in a way that isn't degrading. Ex: waxing brows will make your features look more feminine would be helpful feedback.

I think in the MtF forum there are more honest replies with better feedback. I think that the FtM forum could get some pointers from y'all because I think many times over there people aren't honest (or I am just good at picking out feminine features) or they don't mention what makes a person pass/not pass as well as you gals.

I agree with you David and it's been good to get feedback from people who have been socialized female too. I've left some comments on the FtM pass thread and am mostly met with stone silence which makes posting there a bit discouraging. I suppose it's that some find it intimidating and perhaps others just dislike input from an MtF type.
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Allyda

Quote from: Shantel on April 22, 2014, 06:35:30 PM
I agree with you David and it's been good to get feedback from people who have been socialized female too. I've left some comments on the FtM pass thread and am mostly met with stone silence which makes posting there a bit discouraging. I suppose it's that some find it intimidating and perhaps others just dislike input from an MtF type.
I agree Auntie it would be a good idea for some FTM's to look at and give pointers on our MTF passing threads. Their unique position in life would provide a point of view many of we girls may or may not be seeing about ourselves.
Allyda
Full Time August 2009
HRT Dec 27 2013
VFS [ ? ]
FFS [ ? ]
SRS Spring 2015



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