Quote from: __________ on April 24, 2014, 11:53:15 AM
Another list of questions, I'm afraid.  Sorry!
5 - Once the beard is removed and you're without makeup, is it still possible to pass as a guy if needed?  Does a face with a removed beard look like a guy who has had a close shave, or does it look feminine?

Personal experience, I look young for my age.  2 years low dose HRT, and no one has ever commented on my lack of beard, and I'm not transitioning.

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6 - Any regrets in beard removal?  I'm guessing I won't have any, because shaving is a pain and I've never been a beardy type person.  I won't cry too many tears over never shaving again.

None at all!  I used to get massive breakouts from shaving - they've all gone.  The only vague thing is not being able to chip in on Movember in Australia.  Mind you, my beard was that weak that I suspect that some cis-girls from certain ethnic groups probably had more facial hair than I did.

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7 - When to do it: once HRT has started, or wait a while until some feminization has occurred?

Deal with it now.  It's a slow process and potentially expensive.

  Shave the hair right down because it's most likely going to get fried/melted and potentially absorb too much of the laser energy at the same time if you don't.  Length is only required for electrolysis so that they have something to grab with the tweezers.  Whether or not your hairs are going to get burned by the laser depends a lot on the machine type and its settings and how dark your hairs are.  The people working on my face and neck had a very powerful machine and used it quite 'aggressively' - as much as I could take without generating excessive redness.  Remember that either procedure is targeting only the follicle.  Anything longer than that isn't going to help the laser target them.

  For sideburns I asked them to go as far up as what still looked like beard hair.  There is a transition point on me above which the hairs have a different character.  It was easy for them to locate the dividing line and the result looks quite natural.

Beard removal is definitely the very first step to consider. I had mine done 4 years ago and had already started HRT at that point which definitely helped with the results.

My tech had removed a few beards before mine but it was the first one she had done on someone on HRT and she was surprised at how quickly the beard disappeared. I had 5 full sessions approximately 6 weeks apart. I now pluck the odd stray hair as it appears.

I have developed what seems to be vellous facial hair, very fine blonde hairs, and havent touched a razor in years, absolute bliss!

Laser for me was inexpensive as opposed to electrolysis and quick as the whole face was treated in one session.
Light sheer diode works alot better than IPL for hair removal, but unfortunately it doesnt work on light or red hair.
I had to be clean shaven but not shave on the day of treatment so the hair follicles could protrude just slightly from the skin.

In terms of pain, short lived bursts as they zap the hairs and it was definitely more intense when the hair was still dense, but on individual hairs almost undetectable. I judge pain in terms of my migraines, a migraine being 10 out of 10, and on that scale, laser is a 2.

I second that home remedies are a joke and dont work, but have to disagree respectfully that laser is a temperary solution.

I had mine done professionally 4 years ago and were speaking of thick, blue beard. Today Im still completely clean with the occasional straggler here and there, but compared to the average woman, I have less dark hair on my face than most of my friends.

Living proof that it does work.

Quote from: Flygirl on April 26, 2014, 02:06:27 AM
I second that home remedies are a joke and dont work, but have to disagree respectfully that laser is a temperary solution.

I had mine done professionally 4 years ago and were speaking of thick, blue beard. Today Im still completely clean with the occasional straggler here and there, but compared to the average woman, I have less dark hair on my face than most of my friends.

Living proof that it does work.

You will find that in time it will begin to resurface, slowly but surely. It may not be as thick, but it will return. It happens slower for some than for others.

Quote from: l0nghairdontcare on April 26, 2014, 01:49:27 AM
Oh my gosh you all are so mis informed, this is why I stopped asking questions on this forum a long time ago.

First of all it is actually laughable that you would think any home laser system would give you permanent hair removal or even reduction on your facial hair. It is simply not possible. Nothing for home use would ever be powerful enough to do much of anything.

ANY lasers will not give you permanent hair removal on the face. Lasers do not permanently remove hair no matter what. They are FDA aaproced for permanent hair reduction. Your facial hair may be totally absent for up to two years, but will most certainly cosmetically reappear within 2-3 years. They also cannot remove blonde, white, grey, or red hair at all.

Electrolysis is the only way to permanently remove your facial hair. Period. That is a fact.

Any other answer you have received is a lie that is being touted to scam you out of your money.

I too started laser over 2 years ago. The hairs on my face are now gone aside from the odd few in the awkward places and white hairs that need electro. Making a blanket statement saying that we are all mis infomed is a bit harsh as I and Flygirl have just proved to ourselves, to some degree, that laser has worked. The other bit of proof that I have is that I had a tattoo removed over 20 years ago with laser. It is the only hairless place on my arm. Coincidence or am I just lucky to have a hairless patch in the shape of a dragon on my arm ?

Home systems, yes, they are pretty much a waste of money if you want long term results, however, a practitioner that knows male skin and hair armed with the very best of the commercial systems WILL in my opinion remove the hair from your face.

I had laser, about 12 - 14 sessions all up in a few countries (USA, EU and Thailand). At this point, I have nothing but vellus hairs on my face, very downy and natural. There are occasionally one or two black whiskers that pop up around my chin or nose, like ciswomen, and I yank them out mercilessly. What my techs told me is that someone NOT on estrogen, ie preHRT, laser will not be permanent because testosterone causes new whisker follicles to form. BUT after SRS and full HRT for a few years, nothing at all has grown back. For me, with dark hair and olive skin, laser has absolutely utterly been permanent. Much quicker and cheaper than electrolysis would have been too. But you HAVE to be on HRT for it to be so. You can get a jump on clearing your face before HRT, but at some point you want to get on it otherwise you'll have to go back every few months.

Quote from: l0nghairdontcare on April 26, 2014, 01:49:27 AM
Oh my gosh you all are so mis informed, this is why I stopped asking questions on this forum a long time ago.

First of all it is actually laughable that you would think any home laser system would give you permanent hair removal or even reduction on your facial hair. It is simply not possible. Nothing for home use would ever be powerful enough to do much of anything.

ANY lasers will not give you permanent hair removal on the face. Lasers do not permanently remove hair no matter what. They are FDA aaproced for permanent hair reduction. Your facial hair may be totally absent for up to two years, but will most certainly cosmetically reappear within 2-3 years. They also cannot remove blonde, white, grey, or red hair at all.

Electrolysis is the only way to permanently remove your facial hair. Period. That is a fact.

Any other answer you have received is a lie that is being touted to scam you out of your money.

I don't think anyone here is trying to scam the op.  People are just giving their own experiences.  While I agree that home lasers don't work or at least not enough for us, going to a laser salon with a strong enough laser can work.  I've been doing it and it's helped me, but I have the right skin tone and hair type.  Electroysis would have been a waste of money for me.  With laser, I can reduce my hair as best as I can, and will only need an occasional touch up for what is left.  I've seen others have results that did it years ago and I'm seeing them on my own face to know that it works. 

Quote from: l0nghairdontcare on April 26, 2014, 02:09:56 AM
You will find that in time it will begin to resurface, slowly but surely. It may not be as thick, but it will return. It happens slower for some than for others.

What returns though is reduced by a great deal and usually be dealt with through occasional touchups. Even with the 6 month touchups that I will have to go for, I spent way less on laser than I would have for electrolysis because of my dark hair.   They were included in my contract for 3 years.  I guess it's just a matter of different strokes for different folks. 

longhairdon'tcare : Actually, I checked the FDA web site before I posted, and they said *precisely* what I did, albeit in slightly more formal language. A lot of people cite the FDA approval without researching it or understanding what they mean by "reduction."

http://www.fda.gov/radiation-emittingproducts/resourcesforyouradiationemittingproducts/ucm252761.htm

"Several manufacturers received FDA permission to claim, "permanent reduction," NOT "permanent removal" for their lasers. This means that although laser treatments with these devices will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair. The specific claim granted is "intended to effect stable, long-term, or permanent reduction" through selective targeting of melanin in hair follicles. Permanent hair reduction is defined as the long-term, stable reduction in the number of hairs re-growing after a treatment regime, which may include several sessions. The number of hairs regrowing must be stable over time greater than the duration of the complete growth cycle of hair follicles, which varies from four to twelve months according to body location. Permanent hair reduction does not necessarily imply the elimination of all hairs in the treatment area."

Notice that it says that laser WILL PERMANENTLY REDUCE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF HAIRS. It's permanent reduction only because it does not remove *all* hairs but does permanently remove those which are killed, exactly as I said.

Anecdotally, I had laser five years ago with absolutely zero regrowth. Bear in mind that people who are confused about how hair grows can think they're seeing regrowth, too, as dormant hair follicles wake up and produce hairs that were not there to be killed while the treatment was going on; this is why laser recommends several sessions spaced the approximate dormancy period of a hair follicle apart (4-6 weeks).

I also did the math and for what laser cost in my area, I could afford to have it fully redone every 5 years for the next 50 and still not spend 1/10th what electrolysis would cost me, so frankly even if were not permanent (which it has been), I'd be happier to have chosen laser.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 26, 2014, 09:23:33 AM
longhairdon'tcare : Actually, I checked the FDA web site before I posted, and they said *precisely* what I did, albeit in slightly more formal language. A lot of people cite the FDA approval without researching it or understanding what they mean by "reduction."

http://www.fda.gov/radiation-emittingproducts/resourcesforyouradiationemittingproducts/ucm252761.htm

"Several manufacturers received FDA permission to claim, "permanent reduction," NOT "permanent removal" for their lasers. This means that although laser treatments with these devices will permanently reduce the total number of body hairs, they will not result in a permanent removal of all hair. The specific claim granted is "intended to effect stable, long-term, or permanent reduction" through selective targeting of melanin in hair follicles. Permanent hair reduction is defined as the long-term, stable reduction in the number of hairs re-growing after a treatment regime, which may include several sessions. The number of hairs regrowing must be stable over time greater than the duration of the complete growth cycle of hair follicles, which varies from four to twelve months according to body location. Permanent hair reduction does not necessarily imply the elimination of all hairs in the treatment area."

Notice that it says that laser WILL PERMANENTLY REDUCE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF HAIRS. It's permanent reduction only because it does not remove *all* hairs but does permanently remove those which are killed, exactly as I said.

Anecdotally, I had laser five years ago with absolutely zero regrowth. Bear in mind that people who are confused about how hair grows can think they're seeing regrowth, too, as dormant hair follicles wake up and produce hairs that were not there to be killed while the treatment was going on; this is why laser recommends several sessions spaced the approximate dormancy period of a hair follicle apart (4-6 weeks).

I also did the math and for what laser cost in my area, I could afford to have it fully redone every 5 years for the next 50 and still not spend 1/10th what electrolysis would cost me, so frankly even if were not permanent (which it has been), I'd be happier to have chosen laser.

First of all that is NOT what permanent reduction means. it means that the hairs that are effected by the laser will regrow.

Second of all you are forgetting one very important fact that throws this whole argument on its back, this study was done on body hair, NOT male facial hair. They are two VERY different things.

You can do whatever you want and believe whatever you want, I am not saying not to do it. All I am saying is expect to go for touch ups for the rest of your life and don't expect permanent hair removal.

Quote from: GendrKweer on April 26, 2014, 07:59:32 AM
I had laser, about 12 - 14 sessions all up in a few countries (USA, EU and Thailand). At this point, I have nothing but vellus hairs on my face, very downy and natural. There are occasionally one or two black whiskers that pop up around my chin or nose, like ciswomen, and I yank them out mercilessly. What my techs told me is that someone NOT on estrogen, ie preHRT, laser will not be permanent because testosterone causes new whisker follicles to form. BUT after SRS and full HRT for a few years, nothing at all has grown back. For me, with dark hair and olive skin, laser has absolutely utterly been permanent. Much quicker and cheaper than electrolysis would have been too. But you HAVE to be on HRT for it to be so. You can get a jump on clearing your face before HRT, but at some point you want to get on it otherwise you'll have to go back every few months.

This is what I mean, your laser tech is not a doctor and cannot make a statement like this. They have no idea how the human body works at all and how hormones effect hair growth. It is silly, a laser technician has NO qualifications to make a general statement like that. Most of the time laser technicians need only minor qualifications to use the laser in the first place, they sometimes have to take a state test and that is it! One could technically become a laser tech off the street!

It also does not matter, facial hair is stimulated by testosterone and DHT. These will always be present in your body no matter what and until they are not there is always a chance that hair can regrow.

You don't even mention what HRT is! Neither did that person most likely.

Is that an anti androgen? Estrogen? Anti DHT medication? One of those? None?

Quote from: l0nghairdontcare on April 26, 2014, 11:48:57 AM
This is what I mean, your laser tech is not a doctor and cannot make a statement like this. They have no idea how the human body works at all and how hormones effect hair growth. It is silly, a laser technician has NO qualifications to make a general statement like that. Most of the time laser technicians need only minor qualifications to use the laser in the first place, they sometimes have to take a state test and that is it! One could technically become a laser tech off the street!

It also does not matter, facial hair is stimulated by testosterone and DHT. These will always be present in your body no matter what and until they are not there is always a chance that hair can regrow.

You don't even mention what HRT is! Neither did that person most likely.

Is that an anti androgen? Estrogen? Anti DHT medication? One of those? None?

Well, mine is a doctor.... really...

"Permanent hair reduction is defined as the long-term, stable reduction in the number of hairs re-growing after a treatment regime, which may include several sessions."

Note how that says treated hair does not regrow. I'm confident that I've interpreted it correctly, but either way, I've cited the actual official source and other people can draw their own conclusions. It's not misinformation from *me* at that point.

(I'm also confident that I have cis female levels of T at this point - I'm down to adrenals as a source, just as they are. In fact, since the ovaries produce a little bit of T* as well, I may have *less* than is typical.)


*http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001165.htm

"In healthy women, the ovaries and adrenal glands produce about 40 - 50% of the body's testosterone."

I think that at this point in time, laser hair removal - sorry, reduction - is fairly mature and proven technology.  Sure, electrolysis is more effective, but it seems it's also extremely expensive.  Since cash and time are not unlimited commodities in my house, it'll be laser first, then electrolysis to remove the stubborn gray hairs.

Surely we're long past the time for questioning the effectiveness of professional laser treatment?  I imagine the only people who adamantly claim all laser treatments are a scam are those who own now-failing electrolysis clinics?  The debate seems to have lots in common with the Betamax/VHS debate (if that doesn't age me too much); sure, Betamax was technically superior, but VHS was far cheaper and, more importantly, good enough for what most people needed.

My last laser session was about two years ago. I do not shave since I have no facial hair.

For me it was great, I went to a place that specialised in treating women with POCS. I was the first TG they had worked on.

Painful? Yes.
Worthwhile?  OMG yes
Permanent? Who can say, see above.

When to start? yesterday.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on April 26, 2014, 02:11:02 PM

(I'm also confident that I have cis female levels of T at this point - I'm down to adrenals as a source, just as they are. In fact, since the ovaries produce a little bit of T* as well, I may have *less* than is typical.)

*http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001165.htm

"In healthy women, the ovaries and adrenal glands produce about 40 - 50% of the body's testosterone."

I have been castrated and I am a young 21 year old. My T level is low but not as low as a pre menopausal females t levels are. Yours will never be as low either, unless you are taking an anti androgen while you are castrated which is not recommended and is unhealthy. Born males will always produce more T from adrenals than a female will.

All I can really say is that my lab levels disagree. I had T in the middle of the female range [~40 ng/dl] back when I was on estrogen only and pre-op; my post-GRS levels are at the lower end of the female range now [22 ng/dl]. Possibly it's different for a 21-year-old, I don't know, but I and my endocrinologist both believe it's possible for a trans woman to achieve the same T levels or below as a pre-menopausal cis woman. To be fair, I did have such a good reaction to E only that I hit those levels on a dose appropriate for a menopausal cis woman, which means that dose now may yet be equivalent to taking a bit of AA post-op; I have no idea.

In fact, you're the first person I've ever seen say that a trans woman *can't* expect cis levels as a goal post-op.

If we take the female range as 15-70 ng/dl (Mayo clinic data : http://www.healthline.com/health/low-testosterone/testosterone-levels-by-age), the NIH says that post-castration cis men can expect an average of 15 ng/dl. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2725306/ .

Additionally, there is no later rebound of T production.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/72830

"No compensatory adrenal production of testosterone was noted during a 17-month period after orchiectomy." So adrenal production of T remains the same as pre-castration.

Since all that data comes from cis men, I have to assume that trans women can expect *at least* as good an outcome.

I can only go on personal experience. But I'd say at what point do we say it is "permanent"? 2 years post treatment? 5? 10? I'm at least 2 years post and have had ZERO new thick beard hairs come back, except as I said one or two around my chin/mouth EXACTLY like natal women have (which could also be a simple matter of not zapping those hairs on the growth cycle). As far as hair, yes, my face has a lot of hair on it still... all the beard changed to vellus down, which is also exactly cisfemale in appearance. I far prefer having vellus hair as it makes my face feel twice as soft as not having any at all. So by that, no laser did not eliminate my hair. It just turned it into invisible down lol... which is perfect by me. My hormone therapy was spiro and estrogen before my SRS, just estro post SRS two years ago. If you have a good hair/skin color profile, as I did (dark hair/olive - white skin), and have your hormones under control, then there is no reason not to use laser.

My experience is not as positive - laser and hrt certainly reduced my facial hair but I have also required many, many hours of galvanic (104 hours so far with an estimated further 30 hours still required).  I had little success with blend even though I did appear to achieve full clearance after 66 hours. 

I wish that laser had been more effective.  It is certainly relatively fast, painless and economical. While laser clearly helped, my beard was thick and I had many white hairs (60 to 70% of my facial hair).

Aisla

Ah, white hairs as I understand it would be entirely untouched by laser, so yeah... I'm sorry!