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My Theory on GD and just trying to make sense of it all

Started by bobowhoa, May 03, 2014, 05:45:57 AM

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bobowhoa

I've been thinking a lot about Sarah Fox's article, particular this excerpt:

I believe further that transsexualism is related to these two disorders. What then determines the outcome of perturbation of one's hormonal environment in utero? I would say that two factors are critical. First, obviously, is the magnitude of the perturbation. Different brain and body systems may require different levels of testosterone in order to be masculinized, and masculinization may not be an all-or-nothing phenomenon. Thus, different testosterone levels may be associated with different magnitudes of masculinization and with different combinations of masculine and feminine development throughout the brain and body. Perhaps more critical is the timing of the testosterone suppression, as different systems develop and sexually differentiate at different times throughout fetal development. Testosterone suppression very early in pregnancy may result, for instance, in a failure to masculinize the hypothalamus, which arguably could result in female-patterned sexual preference, hence homosexuality, during adulthood. Testosterone insufficiency at later stages could result in failure to masculinize numerous other brain systems, including perhaps the cerebral cortex very late in development. As a result, the adult's cognitive patterns could be very feminine, although socialized artificially into masculine patterns. This condition could underlie gender identity disorders such as transvestism and transsexuality.

The idea that our gender alignment in terms of mental characteristics is influenced by when the perturbation happens during fetal development really stuck with me. In an attempt to make sense of this I tried to make a crude sort of "putting together of the puzzle pieces" to see what configuration will make the most sense to produce different types of mental profiles in the spectrum of gender dysphoria. I know this will likely be overly simplified if not completely inaccurate, but I figured it would be fun to start somewhere.

Assumption 1: The development of the brain of the fetus will grow outwards and chronological develop in the order of really primal structures to the outer cerebral cortex. What this translates to is that the more basic mental functions will develop first. Looks like the brain becomes gender specific starting around week 10: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/brain-development-in-fetus.html. The environment in the uterus is suppose to contribute to 30% of brain development.
Assumption 2: The magnitude of the perturbation in hormonal activity is independent of when it occurs in fetal development. In other words in the passage's context, the mother will be just as likely to be stressed at any given time of her pregnancy.

Using what I perceive as the prevalence of different profiles (e.g. ratio of homosexuals vs. heterosexual ->-bleeped-<-, etc.), I have put together the following GENERIC categorical buckets strictly for genetic males that I think fits best. It would be more clear presenting this in a chart or infographic, but I'll start with this.

Period 1) Gender that gets you sexually aroused (what testosterone pushes you towards):
Default: females, stressed: males
Period 2) Gender role you fit under during such sexual arousal
Default: male, stressed: female
Period 3) Method of exercising gender role during sexual arousal
Default: top/sperm donor, stressed: bottom/sperm receiver
Period 4) Gender that gets you romantically excited (what oxytocin pushes you towards):
Default: females, stressed: males
Period 5) Gender that you identify with:
Default: male, stressed: female
Period 6) Gender alignment of cognition/behavior/higher level thought processes (very large bucket that spans many weeks of fetal brain development)
Default: female, stressed: male

Then, here is how the common gender/sexual orientation profiles that we observe in society can be defined by these periods/categories. We will expect that the common profiles should have categories that are adjacent to one another since the effects of the stress hormones in the mother over time is continuous and not discrete. There will also be people that will show as stressed in category 1 in combination with other categories since I believe being stressed in category 1 should be the most common (reason explained below). Sorry if I have some of the stereotypes wrong.

1) The sissy slut ->-bleeped-<-/crossdresser: He loves to dress as a woman and fantasize about being used by men. He is typically a closeted "weekend" crossdresser. All this only occurs when he is sexually aroused. After ejaculation he feels guilty. When not sexually aroused he identifies as a typical heterosexual male and is viewed by society as a typical male with masculine behaviors.
Period of stress hormones/toxins during fetal development: 1, 2, 3. Beginning-heavy stress.

2) The gay top: Typically masculine in appearance and behavior. Sexually and romantically interested in men. Usually does not set off people's gaydar.
Period of stress hormones/toxins during fetal development: 1, 4. Less pronounced middle-heavy stress.

3) The gay effeminate bottom: Sexually and romantically interested in men. The type that will set off your gaydar. This is also where drag queens will be characterized.
Period of stress hormones/toxins during fetal development: 1, 3, 4, 5.5 (pronounced but not completely), 6. More pronounced middle-heavy stress.

4) The lesbian transgirl: A study has shown that there is a higher incidence of lesbian transgirls amongst transgirls than lesbian cisgirls amongst cisgirls.
Period of stress hormones/toxins during fetal development: 2, 3.5, 5, 6 (pronounced but not completely), 6. End-heavy stress.

5) The heterosexual transgirl: She knew from as young as she can remember that she was a girl.
Period of stress hormones/toxins during fetal development: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. Continually stressed.

6) Stereotypical heterosexual male:
Period of stress hormones/toxins during fetal development: None. Insignificantly stressed.

I tried to find out what is more common: the heterosexual/bi-curious ->-bleeped-<- or the male homosexual (which will semantically mean sexually and romantically attracted to men). I did a search on Fetlife and it does appear there are more CD/TV profiles and associated populated groups than the gay profiles and groups. I believe there are more non-homosexual bottom ->-bleeped-<-s than homosexuals. From my map you can see that what causes this transvestitism is SOLELY the lack of early masculinization. This will make sense with what I believe that the most common period of brain development that is vulnerable to not being masculinized is the beginning. Perhaps 1) the primal mid-brain area already started development without waiting for the testes to begin producing testosterone or 2) the stress hormones are already present during the beginning of testosterone production-- an extended lag period is needed to build up T (it takes longer for the fetus to be saturated with testosterone and reach the threshold of being considered non-->-bleeped-<-). I think this period of determining this sexual orientation can arguably be the most primal attribute of our brain of all the other categorical bucket items I have listed.

Additionally, with male brains being larger and heavier than female brains (see particularly the stria terminalis), it seems like the masculinization of the brain is an additive process. This can help support (although I believe it isn't the main factor) why GD can be more pronounced as we age since our brain mass and neural connections will typically degenerate.

Some problems with this include:
1)  Period 3 may not make sense being so early since motor skills are not developed yet
2) There should be a unique profile for all adjacent categories. However, I can't really imagine too many 4 - 5's, meaning a male who identifies as female, is romantically attracted to men, but likes to top and ->-bleeped-<- them.

Questions to you:
1) Are you able to find yourself fitting into this map?
2) For those that consider yourself very high on the scale of gender dysphoria, do you know if your mom has had a prolonged period of stress during her pregnancy?
3) What are your general thoughts on my generalization? :)

Although I definitely identify with female attributes in some of these categories (which should be normal for almost everyone as few things are absolute), I believe I fit just 1. I know that I am a very anxious person and so is my mom (genetic?) and it is possible she had some anxiety attack episodes, especially after trying to conceive me as the first child after a miscarriage.

Thanks for reading!
Don't forget that you are all loved  :)
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Ms Grace

Personally I'm not interested in mapping myself or trying to come up with an answer to why I identify as, and am happier presenting as, female. I just am. :)
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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kelly_aus

I know my mother had a very stress free pregnancy.. So I can't see how this fits me at all.

Whilst I agree with the theory that transsexualism may be caused by incorrect hormone levels during foetal devalopment, I think you are attempting to apply some further labels to that idea with no science to back it up. You make the assumption that stress is the cause and that might not be it at all. Other environmental factors could come in to play.

Honestly, I don't much care about the why. It is what it is. Knowing why won't make me feel any better about it, nor will it make it go away.
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MikaylaGC

Some interesting thoughts on all this, thanks for sharing them. I know for some people understanding the reason why or how things work or happen is very important. Me I'm like 50/50 its interesting to understand peoples theories/thoughts on the matter but I guess I'm like Kelly & Grace and think oh well I am what I am....a Bisexual Trans-girl  :-*
Without change, something sleeps inside us
And seldom awakens....
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Ducks

I suggest you go read the WPATH standards of care 7 for some insight into the current thinking.  I find the information you posted to be pseudo science at best, it is not supported by any fact and the categories are something out of the 50's.  It seems clear that you're here trying to troll and have no real idea what it is like to be gay or trans.  Sorry for being blunt, but really?

Sad Trombone regards
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bobowhoa

Quote from: Ducks on May 03, 2014, 11:55:21 AM
I suggest you go read the WPATH standards of care 7 for some insight into the current thinking.  I find the information you posted to be pseudo science at best, it is not supported by any fact and the categories are something out of the 50's.  It seems clear that you're here trying to troll and have no real idea what it is like to be gay or trans.  Sorry for being blunt, but really?

Sad Trombone regards
`
Of course this isn't science, and no I'm not trying to troll. Like I said I wanted to just capture my thoughts with the closest thing I can think of that will make sense, and if anything else, for fun. For me I'd hate to blindly accept confusing things and to gain what insight I can, and this is the best I can come up with.

Sorry if you feel irked by my post. Like I said in my post, sorry if I don't have some of the stereotype/profiles of people accurate. It's always hard if you generalize but sometimes you have to in order to not write a book. If I have no idea perhaps educate me at your own discretion :)
Don't forget that you are all loved  :)
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aleon515

It all seems to be about sex. My experience of being trans doesn't primarily fhave to do with sex, I mean it is affected but it really isn't about sex. Sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things.

--Jay
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@Diana

Quote from: Ms Grace on May 03, 2014, 06:09:12 AM
Personally I'm not interested in mapping myself or trying to come up with an answer to why I identify as, and am happier presenting as, female. I just am. :)

hi-5 Grace .. I'm female, end of story haha  ;D
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Asche

Quote from: aleon515 on May 04, 2014, 02:54:43 AM
...My experience of being trans doesn't primarily have to do with sex,... Sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things.
Same here.

I'm "gynophilic," and my journey away from manhood (into non-binariness, or perhaps WTF-ness) has not had any effect on that, other than getting me to examine my own feelings and behavior and interactions more closely.

And while I cannot predict the future, I have no reason to believe that this would change even if someday I decided to transition and live as a woman.
"...  I think I'm great just the way I am, and so are you." -- Jazz Jennings



CPTSD
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HoneyStrums

Gender From what I have read on the subject, Is almost entirly a social thing. And by scocial im mean the single celled society of one self, and how one places them self in society at large through their own exsperiences. And that its entirly possible that ther are as many genders as poeople. Although society in atemps to bring order to the chaos of individuality have applied words to catogries gender through similer desires, it is more a this person is like that one and not these people are the same. Trying to apply biolagy to somthing that is social thing will nearly always find a less then welcom respoce. I too may recieve a cold responce for saying this, but its like some poeple have said people are WHO they are, not WHAT poeple say they are.
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Umiko

i think of it as a war between your mind and body which one is fighting for dominance. i love using this theory my therapist gave me (yes i love my therapist, he is freaking awesomeness xa million) but its like play dough, the more you squeeze the more comes out the cracks and those cracks represent true self trying to get out but has some pretty nasty side affects do to that physical self suppressing your inner self. thats how i see it  ;D
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HoneyStrums

Quote from: Umiko Nixie on May 04, 2014, 08:38:27 PM
i think of it as a war between your mind and body which one is fighting for dominance. i love using this theory my therapist gave me (yes i love my therapist, he is freaking awesomeness xa million) but its like play dough, the more you squeeze the more comes out the cracks and those cracks represent true self trying to get out but has some pretty nasty side affects do to that physical self suppressing your inner self. thats how i see it  ;D


Yes play dough, And play dough that needs to be a blue circle cant cope in a green box. some times its ok with the box but not the colour so it still needs to get out and show its colour.
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Umiko

Quote from: ButterflyVickster on May 04, 2014, 08:47:17 PM

Yes play dough, And play dough that needs to be a blue circle cant cope in a green box. some times its ok with the box but not the colour so it still needs to get out and show its colour.

but i also view it as a pain in the behind. i both love and hate my dysphoria. lol
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bobowhoa

Quote from: aleon515 on May 04, 2014, 02:54:43 AM
It all seems to be about sex. My experience of being trans doesn't primarily fhave to do with sex, I mean it is affected but it really isn't about sex. Sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things.

--Jay

Hi Jay, actually what I charted out was a spectrum where sexuality is just one of the attributes. In other words, I'm saying that I really think that fetal development plays the majority of BOTH sexuality and gender identity, according to when in brain development the perturbation happens (as I have tried to crudely illustrate). What I found as the biggest evidence of gender identity being heavily influenced by fetal development is the case of how with identical twin boys, one ended up having a strong female identity while the other was male. So far, I find this to be the most elegant solution for all this to make sense.

http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/family/articles/2011/12/11/led_by_the_child_who_simply_knew/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/31/maine-court-transgender-pupil_n_4703670.html

Also, sorry for the people who may feel offended by me just making a post posing the question of "why" which I feel is not any different than asking the "why" for anything (e.g. "Oh I don't care why I'm left-handed, why do people get cancer, or why is the sky blue, it just is") To some it is important! if not at least interesting.
Don't forget that you are all loved  :)
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BunnyBee

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kelly_aus

Ask why all you like..

But expect some comments and opinions on the subject.
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Miyuki

I have to admit, I was a little curious about how one becomes transgender when I heard about the case of identical twins where one was transgender and one was not. But I thought it was already known that failure to expose the brain to adequate levels of testosterone was the most likely cause for a person to have issues with their gender identity. And as for your list of categories, it seems like an effort to oversimplify something that is inherently complex enough to defy simplification. I also think that attributing changes in hormonal expose to the mother being stressed is highly questionable. The evidence just doesn't support that conclusion, because there are too many cases where a stressed mother will have a perfectly happy cisgended child, and cases where a mother not under any apparent stress will have a transgender child.
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Gina Taylor

Quote from: Ms Grace on May 03, 2014, 06:09:12 AM
Personally I'm not interested in mapping myself or trying to come up with an answer to why I identify as, and am happier presenting as, female. I just am. :)

I agree with Ms. Grace 100%. I am happier presenting as a female without trying to figure out why.  :)
Gina Marie Taylor  8)
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HughE

"Bobowhoa", for the first 16 weeks after conception the main things going on are very rapid cell division, and migration of those cells from the place where they formed to where their final place in the brain where they'll be (which is often far distant from where they were created). By 16 weeks after conception, most brain cells have reached their final position and that's when the permanent connections between brain cells and the first permanent parts of the structure of your brain start to be built, a process which continues for the remainder of the pregnancy and for the first few months after birth (this is the same time period during which high levels of testosterone are produced in normal male development). Although no one really knows for sure, it seems to be during this process of building the permanent connections between cells that the gender-specific differences between the brains of men and women are built, i.e. a period of time starting about 16 weeks after conception and ending about 6 months after birth. If you have high testosterone during this time, you'll end up with a male brain, whereas if your testosterone is low (or absent altogether), your brain will end up female.

There was a fair bit of research carried out in the 1970s into the effect of external hormones on sexual development in sheep. What this showed is that exposure to external testosterone early in the pregnancy mainly affects genital development. This is followed by a relatively short "window" of time during which the brain's ability to control hormones later in life can be affected, and following that, a fairly long period (basically the remainder of the pregnancy), during which various aspects of the sheep's behaviour later in life can end up sex-reversed. Presumably, something similar applies in humans.

Although I'm very unlikely to ever know for sure what happened, something appears to have temporarily shut down my testosterone production during the early stages of building the permanent structure of my brain. One of the things that's been affected is my hormone regulation, and the other things that have ended up female are all associated with the more evolutionarily ancient parts of the brain. My mother suffered a lot from depression when I was younger, and whatever happened to me seems to have happened very early in that process of building the permanent structure of the brain (i.e. about 16 weeks after conception). This just so happens to be about the time the mother first feels the baby moving inside her, and is close to the time where ending the pregnancy would no longer be a miscarriage but would become a stillbirth instead. There's also something that happened later in my childhood which makes me think she was hiding a guilty secret regarding how I've ended up partially female. Although, as I've since discovered, I've got a lot in common with "DES sons" (biological males who were prenatally exposed to an artificial estrogen called diethylstilbestrol or DES), there are differences too, plus there was absolutely no medical reason for my mother to have been given DES. My parents were using birth control pills for contraception (the first generation high dosage ones) throughout their childbearing years, and basically it has all the hallmarks of being an overdose of birth control pills. If that's what actually happened, then it's quite an important point, because although the birth control pills my parents used contain a small amount of the estrogen ethinylestradiol, their main hormonal component is norethisterone acetate, a progestin.

DES (and all other estrogens) were withdrawn from use during pregnancy by about 1980 in most parts of the world, but treatments containing progestins continue to be used to the present day, for conditions such as threatened abortion (where the mother starts bleeding from her vagina), or in pregnacies where there's thought to be a risk of the mother going into premature labour. It's been an open secret for years that there are very high rates of MTF transsexuality associated with DES, but everyone seems to have assumed that the effect is limited to estrogens. If I'm right about what happened to me, then it means progestins (and probably any other testosterone-blocking drug) can induce female brain development in biological males. This would explain why there are so many younger gender variant people born after DES was withdrawn from use.

Here's a couple of threads about DES and transsexuality:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,84224.0.html
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,157142.0.html
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bobowhoa

Thanks for your post and links HughE! I hope in my lifetime there will be more research into this field too.

I read through one of the threads that talked a lot about DES. Yeah I heard about that and seen people on forums claiming to be DES babies. I saw you made a mention of cloacal extrophy, I looked it up and it seems to be about how some of your organs are exposed outside of the skin. However, it doesn't look like there's a clear link to transsexuality: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/7735085_Gender_identity_outcome_in_female-raised_46XY_persons_with_penile_agenesis_cloacal_exstrophy_of_the_bladder_or_penile_ablation

I think I may have had a varicocele, but I always thought that was normal (looked just like the pictures and I remember sharp pain from the veins). According to wikipedia, up to 15-20% of males have it. However, I don't have it anymore, so I don't know if it's suppose to be a permanent thing or not.

I'm so curious as to what my mom may have taken, especially being born after a miscarriage before me, and perhaps frantically trying to take medicines?
Don't forget that you are all loved  :)
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