Ok, this has caused some division among me and some of my dearest friends. So, I just want to explain where I'm coming from with an analogy.

It's generally accepted that trans women are more marginalized than trans men, right?

Okay, so I'm having a conversation with a trans woman. And she's explaining her experiences of being discriminated against. So I chime in and talk about how it's not that way where I live. And go on about how I have trans women friends who didn't go through that. Hell, I even have a trans girlfriend and she didn't go through that!

But honestly, how the hell do I know that if I'm a trans man? How do I know what it's like for my trans female friends? Even my girlfriend? I don't. Just because they don't talk about it or act like everything's ok - doesn't say anything about the level of discrimination in my area. Even if they personally don't experience it and I could prove that for a fact (which I can't). It doesn't mean others in my area aren't going through it right now.

Ok, I'm white. Just because I had black friends doesn't mean I know what they went through in my community. They never talked about it. Even if I had black boy or girl friend, doesn't mean I'd know whether or not they were experiencing discrimination.
If you ask me, racism wasn't a problem in my community. I'm sure if you asked a black person from my area, they'd disagree.

Anyway, I'd like us to stop the anecdotes and the 'my friends, girlfriends' whatever. Because if you weren't recognized as a member of the marginalized community in question, how do you really know? I can tell you my black friends or lovers didn't experience discrimination, but how the hell would I know that? Even if I asked, how do I know they'd even share something like that?

I'd just like some respect. You know, that those of us born to marginalized communities know what the hell we're talking about.

Hi FA,
It is good to see you. 

I, for one, don't believe for a minute that you are disingenuous, and I can assure anyone who questions you, that you have done more personal exploration and honest reflection than anyone that I know of on these forums.  I don't always agree with you, but I always respect your thoughts and honor your integrity.

Best,
Julie

I agree, and another thing is, these kinds of prejudices are systemic, so it could be affecting your life, negatively, without you even necessarily knowing about.

For instance, back when I was living as a boy, I must have applied for a million jobs, and even though I had good references, at the time my presentation was highly feminine and it aalways went the same way. I'd submit the application...i'd call back about it and be told to come in at such and such time. I'd come in and talk to the manager and the convo always went like "alright miss, what was your name, again?"..."oh, it was Seth (last nme)"..."Beth.."..."no, no. Seth. S-E-T-H". Then i'd end up with the obbligatory "right, well we're reviewing applications right now" yada, yada...and never get a callback.

Point is, these things and views of certain groups are ingrained into our society. So, really, until you melt away seamlessly into your identity as a woman, you'll always dealwith it on some level. And even if you do, there's still sexim. But, yeah, for racial minorities, unpassable transpeople etc it's always going to be a battle against peoples bigotry.

It is the most frustrating thing I know of.  "I didn't experience things that way so you must be delusional."  It feels very invalidating.

Quote from: JenIt is the most frustrating thing I know of.  "I didn't experience things that way so you must be delusional."  It feels very invalidating.

It sure does. And the sad part is that the people who make these comments are missing something important: the possibility that they might actually learn something.

It's beyond invalidating. It's belittling and hurtful.

Quote from: Jen on May 07, 2014, 03:25:54 PM
It is the most frustrating thing I know of.  "I didn't experience things that way so you must be delusional."  It feels very invalidating.

I would never say it doesn't happen to trans women because I know it does. But as far as my transition has gone up to this point it hasn't been that bad. But I'm more fortunate than a lot if I was not able to blend as well as I have I might not have been so lucky. I do know people personally who have been harassed and I truly feel for them.   

Quote from: Tysilio on May 07, 2014, 03:34:35 PM

Quote from: JenIt is the most frustrating thing I know of.  "I didn't experience things that way so you must be delusional."  It feels very invalidating.

It sure does. And the sad part is that the people who make these comments are missing something important: the possibility that they might actually learn something.

It's beyond invalidating. It's belittling and hurtful.

Exactly. I feel like there's a kind of glorifying of the female experience here. When really, there's no conversation about gender - no real conversation - that can omit the fact females have always (throughout remembered time) held a lower status. And there seems to be a kind of denial here of that.

Oh, I don't deny it, not for a second.

Thanks to everyone who replied.

Honestly, I lived much of my life as a female. But when I try to talk about it or the problems females in general go through, I get a ton of resistance. And I don't get it. I thought this would be the place.

And, ok. I'm pissed off at being born female and the way I was treated. Not just cause I'm a guy, but because I'm a human. I think anyone would be. But I increasingly get the idea on here that:

a) I should just shut up

b) no one believes me because their friend/girlfriend/aunt's girlfriend supposedly didn't go through it

c) they don't see it in their world, so it's not happening


How am I supposed to talk about my life? My past is not a guy's past. However much I may try to frame it to be.

From my point of view, this happens everytime I talk about my past. And I get that a lot of you would have rather experienced being a little girl than a little boy. That doesn't mean it doesn't absolutely suck. For a little trans boy or a cis girl.

You all talk about your past being bullied and beat up freely on here. Yet nobody wants to hear my experience. Always a ton of resistance. Why is that?

Quote from: defective snowflake on May 07, 2014, 04:18:01 PM
In all honestly, it just seems like you want us all to feel bad for wanting to be or feeling like women.

Oh no. Not at all.

It's difficult. I mean, it may be different for trans women. But for me, there's always this worry, this guilt. I have left a marginalized state for a non marginalized state. Even though I have always felt male, this - is part of my legacy. I mean, I can make a zillion arguments on how I wasn't really 'raised female'. But it'd be bull->-bleeped-<-. Doesn't matter how much a tomboy I was.

And I think sometimes trans women on here minimize what assigned women go through. And that's invalidating to us.

People basically suck.  Not everyone does, mind you, but there are far too many defective people in this world.   Most don't even have a clue about how defective they really are and the most defective of all also tend to have the loudest voices.  The thing about privilege is that those who have it wish to maintain it, whether consciously so or not, and they will continue to do so at the expense of others, thus marginilization and discrimination.

Our experiences are all unique, and there is nothing wrong with that.  I don't know what it's really like to be anyone other than myself.  This is partly why I'm here.  I want to know what everyone else had to go through- the good, bad and ugly.  It's nice to know I'm not the only one who had to grapple with a brain/body mismatch and the ensuing fallout.

So please, FA, don't ever shut up.  Let it all out.  I love hearing your take on things, BTW.  And please don't ever think I don't want to hear you or that I would ever try to invalidate you. 

Life is a battle and we all end up with scars.   We heal together.

Quote from: Jill F on May 07, 2014, 04:37:19 PM
People basically suck.  Not everyone does, mind you, but there are far too many defective people in this world.   Most don't even have a clue about how defective they really are and the most defective of all also tend to have the loudest voices.  The thing about privilege is that those who have it wish to maintain it, whether consciously so or not, and they will continue to do so at the expense of others, thus marginilization and discrimination.

Our experiences are all unique, and there is nothing wrong with that.  I don't know what it's really like to be anyone other than myself.  This is partly why I'm here.  I want to know what everyone else had to go through- the good, bad and ugly.  It's nice to know I'm not the only one who had to grapple with a brain/body mismatch and the ensuing fallout.

So please, FA, don't ever shut up.  Let it all out.  I love hearing your take on things, BTW.  And please don't ever think I don't want to hear you or that I would ever try to invalidate you. 

Life is a battle and we all end up with scars.   We heal together.

Thanks hon.

Honestly for me it does feel like no matter how long I've been here or how much I've contributed - nobody really wants to hear my story. especially if it has anything to do with gender inequality.

I mean, I know many of you are female and have only dreamed of being female. But it's honestly not that great being born into it. Whether you're female brained or not.

If people here would just acknowledge that, we'd probably all get along. 

Quote from: FA on May 07, 2014, 03:42:55 PM
Exactly. I feel like there's a kind of glorifying of the female experience here. When really, there's no conversation about gender - no real conversation - that can omit the fact females have always (throughout remembered time) held a lower status. And there seems to be a kind of denial here of that.

Oh trust me I'm not in denial about it. I think a lot of that is coming from those early in transition who are not yet living full time. But I've experienced first hand what it's like to be treated like your less capable than men. 

I find it so strange that you are met with so much resistance here, because actually I find things you say on this subject to be right in line with what I have observed and even experienced of how females are treated in this world.  I find your comments to be insightful and relevant to my life and actually super helpful.  I would like to visit this universe everybody seems to be from where women are treated so well, and always accepted as equals by men.  It sounds quite wonderful.

Quote from: FA on May 07, 2014, 04:32:42 PM
Oh no. Not at all.

It's difficult. I mean, it may be different for trans women. But for me, there's always this worry, this guilt. I have left a marginalized state for a non marginalized state. Even though I have always felt male, this - is part of my legacy. I mean, I can make a zillion arguments on how I wasn't really 'raised female'. But it'd be bull->-bleeped-<-. Doesn't matter how much a tomboy I was.

And I think sometimes trans women on here minimize what assigned women go through. And that's invalidating to us.

I think a big issue is that some of those things that made you and other assigned females feel objectified, used and marginalized can actually be a little validating for MFT at times. So yes, it will tend to be seen differently by them and though they may not mean to, their acceptance and at times even welcoming of it may well feel invalidating to you and others. Let's face it, we're very much different groups of people under the same umbrella here. There are going to be these issues of conflict between mtf, ftm and even the non-gender, androgynes and the rest of the crowd seeking shelter under the umbrella. The best that can really hoped for would be an understanding that discussion be gentle, not accusational towards groups of people.


Anyway, I had put myself up for deletion, but wanted to say that one thing and now I am out. I can't deal with this stuff and other stuff currently going on in my life and since its a lot harder to escape my real life...

Quote from: Jen on May 07, 2014, 04:52:13 PM
I find it so strange that you are met with so much resistance here, because actually I find things you say on this subject to be right in line with what I have observed and even experienced of how females are treated in this world.  I find your comments to be insightful and relevant to my life and actually super helpful.  I would like to visit this universe everybody seems to be from where women are treated so well, and always accepted as equals by men.  It sounds quite wonderful.

Yep. Well, I think it's an uncomfortable truth for a lot of people. And for many men. I mean, most men are probably horrified by the thought. Most men are good.

But for all of recorded history, women have been subjugated and held to a lesser status. Yeah, ok, women have rights now. In westernized countries. But so do Blacks. And yet, racism is still very much a thing. Even with a Black president.

I don't expect anyone not born female to understand. But I would hope they would try. And not just assume because their friend's sister's girlfriend didn't go through whatever that I didn't. Or ignore or dismiss what I went through. Honestly, there does seem an appropriation and boldness of some trans women. I would never, ever comment on a Black person's experience. Yet, trans women seem to feel free to comment on an assigned girl's experience.

Male privilege is real.  I experienced it, and sad to say I accepted that it was normal.  I hope I didn't subjugate or otherwise demean ciswomen, but I probably did. The socialization is real and pervasive.  That is one of the things I really appreciate about you FA.  You have better vision than most, of the reality of being female vs the reality of being male.  I am still getting used to how I am perceived by men, and for that matter by women too.  Seems a lot of people believe my IQ slipped a bit, and I no longer understand complexity as well.  Sometimes I smile, sometimes I am offended.  What seems really weird to me is that the people in my life haven't changed for the most part, but how I am perceived sure has.  Sometimes it is lonely, I'm not really a part of the sisterhood yet (at least with cis women), but I am definitely no longer part of the male extent.  I don't really fit in real well except perhaps here. But then I never fit in real well before either. 

Julie

Firstly I would like to apologise on behalfe of some newly descovered failings of mine. I saw what I best describ as "the start of some negativety" and I percieved this to be a complete miss understanding of what you was trying to say. And My first thought was this looks like its going to get blown out of praportion, so I started to make a post hopfully redefining and providing a prohapns more understandable clarification on what you was trying to say.

But mydevice is slow and each time there was more posts to read when I clicked post.

I then saw you mention that you felt as if nobody wanted to hear what you had to say, so I added more to state that I was. And then more and more. And then browser closed. So now I see this thread and I'm going to just type conserning your opinions and some light shed on them from my perspective about what you have told us about yours, if that's ok.

I was still a bit conserned about what you said about feeling egnored and I realised that I've not seen that many post of yours, yet you have as many as you do. I also noticed that I've seen more posts of someone with less than a 100. *nd then boom eye opener although I've know you identify as M what I didn't think about was what that M means for you. It means that the reason I don't see so many post of your is because well I frequent the MtF boards and general. But oh I'm so silly of course I'm not going to see much of what you post because I don't go to the FtM boards (been twice I think). And then I noticed that your an admine here, this alarmed me because I notice the rank of most poeple.

So sorry for not being as all inclusive as thought myself to be. But realising that even in a seperate board on the same forum, I still didn't know what it was like for you in their. 4o this even on such a small scale is the ideal representation of what you ment when you said, but I don't know that because it wasn't like that here. And also by choosing prominantly to visit the MtF board am I not in some way by not visiting the FtM board in soome way diminishing its voice. I feel realy ashamed by this to be honest, I know its not what I was intending, but either way I can't help but feel guilty for it.

And in responce to minimilising the oppresed exsperience of asinged woman. Yes I agree it is definately done, but I don't think on purpose. What your gettiing at is how can I describ it hmmmmm...... Ok no offence anyone, actually this next bit is more about relavations on my own behavour so.

Trans have a lower social standing than asigned woman, and asinged woman have a lower scocial standing than asigned men. But. Because both asinged men and woman have a higher social standing that trans, by focusing on this that both asigned men anf woman have higher standings takes some focus away from the reality that asigned woman still have a lower standing than man.

Thanks for teaching me somthing about myself today. Ill try and be bettert.
I too am in some way guilty of this. So sorry for my self centerd counter productive, hypocritical behaviour, I will try and be better in the future.

Not to invalidate your experiences or anything Nero, but this problem has been here since at least when I joined Susan's. Susan's has a sexism problem. And has had that problem for years.

But then, our society has a sexism problem, so what is the surprise? You are expecting trans people to be progressive and aware of under-privileged groups in our society. You are expecting us to be above the average. And that just isn't the case. It isn't part of our culture.

I would also add that there is kind of a bleak history of trans women being excluded from cis women spaces on the grounds that we don't experience the same trauma et al, due to not being assigned female--stuff like women's shelters or clinics. Instead the stats indicate that we are the most vulnerable group of women in our society on every measure: from income to homelessness to abuse to HIV infection rates. So, ya. You'll get push back even from someone like me depending on where you step with the assigned woman stuff. Yes, we have some privilege pre-transition, but all in all it doesn't amount to ->-bleeped-<- statistically.

So when we say that it would have been better for us to have been born as cis girls? Ya, that's kind of the truth. Because there are worse things than being a cis girl, and being a trans girl is one of them. Hell, being a trans anything is worse.

But the people saying sexism is over? They just don't know what they are talking about. The plural of anecdote is not data.

FA : Well, if it helps, in other places I have gotten HUGE pushback to any implication (much less when I outright state it!) that I benefited from male privilege when I was a guy. Other trans women telling me my experience is impossible, I'm transphobic, etc. because I believe that privilege is in large part predicated on how *other people* treat you, and when people saw a man, they accorded me a man's privilege. (Ironically, I will also have cis men telling me their girlfriend's mother's cousin's best friend didn't experience whatever sexist moment I just described happening to me, and so I must be lying.) I think a lot of the discussions about privilege and our pasts get incredibly fraught, because so many people outside of trans circles use those pasts to prove that we're not really the gender we say we are and so people *in* trans circles get jumpy about admitting that they were ever treated differently lest it be used as a weapon against them.

Plus I agree with the idea that sexism *for a time* can be kind of validating for a trans woman, even if it's also awful at the same time. I remember feeling guilty that I was *glad* to have gotten street harassment, because it meant that someone perceived me as a woman and one "attractive enough to be worth harassing." I'm enough of a feminist to know that's a horrible train of thought... but that doesn't quash the little glimmer of triumph that went along with the feminist anger. So my experiences with sexism early in transition were qualitatively different from yours, even though we were both seen/treated as women for a portion of our lives. Interestingly, the longer I'm post-transition, the more my experience begins to *approach* that of many cis women I know - the more that faint sense of validation erodes, replaced by the frustration and irritation of being on the receiving end of casual sexism.