I have a question for my non binary friends, of who I am one, mentally.

There is a debate if a TS will eventually have to full transition, that it may not be possible due to the pain of dysphoria to hold it off without hurting ourselves, mentally.

And there are a few of us fighting to keep our marriages by keeping our status frozen in a gender fluid or genderqueer presentation and mind center.

There is great hope if that can safely be done.

I have fairly accute physical gender dysphoria, not fluid, full TS.   However I am trying to remain andro, which is comfortable socially, not necessarily privately where I simply must let my hair down.  That does not include around the wife, she gets a genderqueer presentation and I am also comfortable with that.

My question for the board, if there are those here that have similar dysphorias, is... is what I am doing and at least one other here sustainable?  Or will it change, or will physical dysphoria eventually trump mental centering and spirit?

My shrink says yes.  My fear says no.  My need says it has to or I am in serious danger.  And my center says be still and trust your center, see through the physical to truth.

Strange for me, I am fully TS and also fully non binary.  The polarity does not fit to be male or female.

There are some very smart people in here, what are your thoughts on sustainability?  I will have to accept truth, truth is inevitable and the only foundation ultimately that can survive the onslaught of dysphoria.

Interesting topic. The only answer is, it varies for everyone.

At the end of the day, you're the same person with or without transition, I feel like. You can be you, either way. It's just about measuring what youcan and can't personally handle given your circumstances and finding the most manageable solution.

There are people who literally unable to transition due to medical reasons. And many are still able to find peace.

At the end of it, being transgender is a giant problem. Whether or not you're able to successfully fully transition will only affect how difficult the problem is to solve. It may be harder to find happiness without full transition but in the end there's always a way.

A lot of this is about mindfulness, I think. Every obstacle can be mitigated by taking a mindful approach to it. The thing is, this is easier said than done and not transitioning if you are fully TS will leave you with more obstacles and more complex obstacles. But none of these are insurmountable, you just have to be self aware in your approach and employ adequate coping mechanisms. However, often times it is a more difficult life than transition, granted.

My opinion may not be valid here, but I will try. I had one of the most mentally challenging careers there is. I had to face things that would paralyze most with fear or indecision and had to remain calm and in control of myself at all times. I had buildings collapse on me, hit by cars, caught in flashovers, assaulted by multiple suspects and many other things. That being said Dysphoria kicked my heiny! I have never run into something so diabolical, debilitating or cruel. I tried for 40 years to keep the beast at bay and every single year it multiplied exponentially. After all I had been through I was not able to be put into the back of my mind with any amount of meditation, distraction or any other method known to mankind. I tried so hard, but the first time I presented female and accepted myself I knew I had found the cure for it. I am now exactly opposite of how I was before after accepting the inevitability of where I was being led. In my personal experience I know I would have died early fighting it any longer. I am now healthy, happy and full of life for the first real time in my life. 

Yes, it's definitely possible. The "transition package" is not a real package and you are more than welcome to pick and choose what works for you. I'm not even sure exactly what you mean by "full transition." The goal is just to make you more comfortable by the means we have available.

I tend to advocate looking at each option for altering your body or your life as a single potential tool. Evaluate whether you want the effects of that specific thing (HRT, clothing change, surgeries, legal changes, etc.) and can handle the associated costs.

Hmmm

Jess you are more than welcome to post honey.  Physically I am right where you are.  And I love the way you care so much.

Full transition:  read full time presentation, read, I shave, you see a rather beautiful woman.  I don't, you see whatever you want to, a guy with long nails wearing loose shirts, or a girl with a beard.  I let that confusion stay with others, and my body language looks like a cat.  Shoes off at work and all, forcing myself to be genuinely free in self expression, breathing, being.

If I had it my way, and there is no dysphoric pushback here, I would have no surgeries.  I would have no beard.   I would just be me.

I wonder this myself at times, though I don't like to think anything is impossible. I went through several very long periods of time when I more or less accepted being a guy. I think I will again. Since I've been here on Susan's, the longest it's lasted was for a few days. I think I will work out a way, though I may have to leave here to do so, there is so much pressure to transition, especially on the other more general forums here.

The times in my life I accepted being a guy were times I not only didn't hate, but really liked the guy I was. Situations change, and I don't like being a guy in general, but me as the type of guy I like being, it's more than fine. It's what I want to happen. I just have to make those circumstances happen again.

Cool.

I am not a guy and don't fit that description well.  FYI for all I am a year on hormones and they are at full power now, and am preop transexual physically.  Mentally - you know the deal there, amuzed by the gender labels since they are useless to me unless I am cis-male or cis-female, and I am neither.  And physically technically both.

I am beginning to realize that the physical dysphoria is centering on this blasted beard that my wife needs for her own security.  I hope I can continue to give her that.

If she percieves herself in a lesbian relationship I am doomed.  if not, I have great hope, but she needs to see the male in me and I need to see the female in me.

What a dumb thing.  All this pain over a stupid little beard.  Welcome to insanity.

Aisla gave me some tools to use, going to try it, I need to see the body as a shell, as an instument, as I do when I am professionally acting.   My instrument is playing me and I need to play her instead.

You are not doomed, but it is possible that your relationship with her is, especially if it is just based on your beard. Maybe there are some other, more personality type qualities that she considers masculine, that you just consider part of your base personality. I'm just trying to give you ideas here, I don't know that they will work. She does seem to want to try to make things work, if you don't want to give her the beard, I think you'll have to give her something else that makes her feel like she's not in a lesbian relationship. Have you considered that maybe what she wants is for you to still be "the guy" in the relationship, or at least not for her to have to be "the guy"?

SJ

I have known a number of fellow travellers who have found that full physical transition was unnecessary for them, that it could be avoided and in some cases that they felt it was undesirable.  Every situation seems to have differed - one maintained a cis male presentation at work and meanwhile fully transitioned physically to and lived as a woman outside of work.  Both they and our common therapist said that for them this worked well and was the best alternative; another sought a more ambiguous presentation and very comfortably, with minimal change (to voice, dress and mannerism) changed their style to suit the situation

For me this is still a journey and very much a voyage of exploration.  I react very negatively to being forced to choose one binary over another when each has merit, each has their own qualities and each represents an aspect which I desire to integrate and build into my self.  For so long I felt required to present and to pass as a 100% red blooded, strong, phlegmatic male and I became very good at this.  However I was dysphoric, I needed to give voice to my feminine aspect and am now doing so.  But I am increasingly clear that I will not do this by denying my male aspect or my male socialisation.   I really do want and need to integrate and access both a female and a male aspect in my daily life.

Of course the question arises as to whether this require a full physical transition or even a non medical transition and deliberate female presentation  - where will my center of gravity, locus or pivot point be?  I sense that it could and probably should be in the middle or even outside of any binary and the implied male female continuum.  I aspire to be fluid, flexible, fully present, self authored and entirely authentic.  To me this suggests that I need to cultivate an ambiguous or flexible if not fluid presentation to suit the circumstance and to suit my purpose at a given point in time. 

If I am successful in this then I hope that my dysphoria continues to abate and I have a long and fulfilling life.   A possible glitch however, and this is something that my therapist called me out on this week, is that I, like most others want to be recognised, appreciated, valued and loved for who we are.  The beauty of a binary is that there is a clear and mostly unambiguous expectation or certainty re Behavior etc and who/what we are  For a non binary the messages are less easily discerned and understood,  the chance of finding someone who 'gets' and values us must be very low indeed.

Multiple issues, choices, trade offs and learnings will undoubtedly follow me as I travel but at the end of the day isn't this journey and the search for meaning and self expression central to our time as an embodied soul?

Safe travels

Aisla

The beard is the only visibly male thing about me right now, so the impact of shaving is a big one.  There is symbolism involved as well, as in losing the male.  You are correct she cannot be the male in the relationship, and she is not, the polarities remain strong emotionally on who is dominant.  The relationship is very close, and I don't want to hurt her.  I am trying to remain in her comfort zone and mine, but mine shifted, the dysphoria got intensified, and that happened quick.

I have hopes since I have the non binary mind, I have fears since I have the TS physical dysphoria, and I am trying to remain sane.

Aisla keep posting it always helps me

4 days to therapy.  Going to be an important session.

God Bless.

Its 4 in the morning here.  Some day this will all pass.

SJ

Well seeing as you are now awake and it is still early evening here I will comment on the beard.  It is your beard, your face and your body.  Requiring you to maintain a beard seems really odd and a little disquieting. A number of questions therefore occur to me.   Is this a control thing?  Does your wife see your beard as the last tangible evidence of the man she knew? Is she really more concerned about losing your male aspect or her relationship with you?  Does she recognise in you and respect you for all of your strengths, weaknesses, hopes, fears and beauty or is she only selectively embracing and recognising you?  Is she hoping that there will be no further change and is afraid of the future? Or is she concerned for you, that you may be hurt, ridiculed, devalued and attacked ie she feels protective; or does she see you as rejecting her, her relationship etc; or is she afraid for herself or for the children of embarrassment, loss of security etc; or is she worried that she will need to identify as and be identified as a lesbian or as a woman who 'failed' to keep her man; or does she have a different aspiration or vision for your future and your family to that which you are attracted to or signed up for etc etc??

In my relationship much of the above has at times been true.  The frustration is that I can't demand an answer and my wife finds it easier to question me rather than to explore her self and the forces shaping her feelings etc.  Where I am starting to get to, with the invaluable help of my therapist, is that we should not feel guilty or selfish for seeking and expecting unconditional love from our life partner.  The longer that this is denied or delayed the more likely that there will be a crisis and positions will be taken and serious breakdown will follow.  If they do not seek support, therapy etc then your main hope may only lie in the integrity of your decisions, the respect and the love that you give to her and to the family.  If this doesn't move her or cause her to support your continued growth then I am not sure what you do - deny your nature or deny your relationship?

SJ I need your thoughts on this as my steps are slow and ponderous compared to the speed with which you are evolving and redefining yourself.  I am travelling but you already seem to be so far ahead.

Aisla

Quote from: Satinjoy on May 07, 2014, 06:21:20 PM
There are some very smart people in here, what are your thoughts on sustainability?  I will have to accept truth, truth is inevitable and the only foundation ultimately that can survive the onslaught of dysphoria.

I toyed with the idea for a while to maintain my male identity but have people "understand" that I was androgynous and treat me accordingly. I don't think it would have worked.

Human beings are wired to gender people. We learn to distinguish male from female before we learn to talk. It colors all our interactions. Barring a massive rewiring of the nervous systems of the entire human race, I don't think people will accept an androgynous presentation with anything but discomfort and confusion. In the end, even the most open-minded will find their subconscious reluctantly put you in one category or the other.

If you don't care what people think (more power to you, you're a stronger person than I...) then there's no reason why you shouldn't try it.

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 08, 2014, 05:44:20 AM
Human beings are wired to gender people. We learn to distinguish male from female before we learn to talk. It colors all our interactions. Barring a massive rewiring of the nervous systems of the entire human race, I don't think people will accept an androgynous presentation with anything but discomfort and confusion. In the end, even the most open-minded will find their subconscious reluctantly put you in one category or the other.

If you don't care what people think (more power to you, you're a stronger person than I...) then there's no reason why you shouldn't try it.

suzifrommd

Unfortunately I think that you are correct.  While female androgynes seem to be granted a greater level of gender ambiguity the same is not yet true for their male equivalents. However it doesn't mean that you can't play with this and better express yourself without full transition and my sense is that society is becoming more comfortable/accepting of this

Aisla

4AM I talked with my wife and exposed all.  We prayed.  Peace returned.  Boundaries reset themselves to what had been established as necessary in therapy.  i felt the spirit of torment leave me and sanity return.

Here are takeaways:

First as a Christian there is an adversary.   I do not think trans is caused by him but I am dead certain he uses it to his advantage, always by distorting the truth of who we really are, whether andro, queer (sorry I dislike that term it was used as derogatory here in childhood) fluid or fully transexual.  When I am centered in truth, presentation is not important, how I FEEL is important.

Second - if I lose the disguise, which is maintained by that beard, then I will lose all.  Number one is  that the dysphoria will seize on the face and I will be gone, for it is the only thing that stops me from looking fully transitioned, and the impact of seeing my face female will take me to the point of no return and send my wife over the edge.

Third- why was I fine with having one and then all of a sudden lost it?  I have to find the triggers.  There are definite triggers.   Like being deprived of something, the trigger from the movie.  Deprived of what?  My body is like  theirs, I am deprived of nothing.

Fourth:  My true psychic center is NOT full transition.  It is non binary.  My center can easily deal with the dual presentations for both are real, even though the male side is not what I would call true male.  Male amuses me.  Physically it is nothing I want.  But defined, it is what... if it is integrity and stregnth and honor and a husbands commitment, then I am very male.  If it is a macho thing, screw it.

Hormones are necessary and I told my wife that.  She was blaming it.  Take them away and I am in the wards.

Fifth: I need to accept that society cannot handle my core presentation most times.  For their comfort, I will don the costume and enjoy the role that will come naturally thanks to my fluidity.  Oh thank God I have that fluidity and that it is genuine and not forced.

Here is the choice:  I either maintain the status quo - socially fluid and andro in physical body language and presentation under the mask, at home GQ, in private moments whatever the heck it wants to be including fully transitioned.

And I need to say I love you to the male presentation in the mirror too, for it is a person of faith and courage and commitments and honestly with the odds I had of survival at about one in ten thousand, I need to respect him.  And fluidly he is in that core, and I need to ditch the resentment against males that I got from being abused, which is the root of rejecting my own male nature.

Pronouns are funny.

If I fully transition and do not fight my physical dysphoria by standing my ground and my boundaries, I will in fact lose everything I ever dreamed of having, and there is a very great chance that I will not survive that.  I know that path I have seen down that road I know where it leads.  I need to stay in the car and let them pull the bug out of my gut that causes distress and accept lifes conditions as they are and thank God that He created a way out for me and a place of compromise that IS sustainable and will lead to "they lived happily ever after".  I need to dig into the truth, the rabbit hole of truth in wonderland, and I need to stand my ground on what I percieve it to be for me and my rather unique dysphoria.

If that is untruth, then my therapist with 40 years trans experience lied to me, based on my specific case.  The one that has no diagnositic label.

I need to watch it here on the boards for triggers, probably need to be on this side more, and probably will be limiting my access to it, spending more time in prayer and in the Bible, molding a dream for the future that will be powerful, exilerating, and helpful to others here.

Aisla, you kept me out of psych wards.  You cut through the root of deception.  You are correct, fluidity is the key and acceptance and not pushing the dysphoria but flowing with it as it moves mentally through the day.  Dont take that as a responsibility, I am responsible for myself, but know that you made a difference in a crisis and feel good about that today.  I am fine now.

If I perceived myself as fully transsexual none of this would work.  But I never have, it was the great riddle in therapy.  When I do, and when I fear becoming fully transexual, all hell breaks loose.  Literally.

God bless, and for those that pray, please pray for me for stability, peace, freedom from self deception, and to hold those boundaries steady without pain.  They have worked well for a year.  I do not want to become a statisitic I have too much to give before I leave this earth.

I am half male half female physically, I have a DES created hardwired body with a girls endo and central nervous system, and my higher reasoning levels are fluid.  That is fact.  How I live with this instrument is up to me.  it is a vessel to be cherished and a gift to my family and wife, and I freely offer it to her.

I hope this rant helps someone.  And I hope my physical dysphoria does not progress farther than I can feel, acknowledge, release, and move on from.

Dangerous blasted thing this dysphoria.  Didn't really understand that it could take my life too, thought I was much stronger than that.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 07, 2014, 06:34:08 PM
Interesting topic. The only answer is, it varies for everyone.

At the end of the day, you're the same person with or without transition, I feel like. You can be you, either way. It's just about measuring what youcan and can't personally handle given your circumstances and finding the most manageable solution.

There are people who literally unable to transition due to medical reasons. And many are still able to find peace.

At the end of it, being transgender is a giant problem. Whether or not you're able to successfully fully transition will only affect how difficult the problem is to solve. It may be harder to find happiness without full transition but in the end there's always a way.

A lot of this is about mindfulness, I think. Every obstacle can be mitigated by taking a mindful approach to it. The thing is, this is easier said than done and not transitioning if you are fully TS will leave you with more obstacles and more complex obstacles. But none of these are insurmountable, you just have to be self aware in your approach and employ adequate coping mechanisms. However, often times it is a more difficult life than transition, granted.

Abbyxo

You cut right through the noise and confusion.  Dealing with the challenge and ironically, the blessing of dysphoria, is indeed mindfulness.  A simple but such a powerful insight.

Aisla

Quote from satinjoy

"fluidity is the key and acceptance and not pushing the dysphoria but flowing with it as it moves mentally through the day."

SJ

Your words struck me.  You could be quoting from The Art of War or describing Kung Fu.   Bending and flexing,  deflecting and protecting,  using the force of a blow to your advantage is perhaps the best way of not only avoiding damage, but securing your survival and then eventual victory.

Aisla

I think I got that one from you!  Or somewhere in here, but I am convinced it is the key.

Thanks again for your help, you have been a good friend to me and very encouraging.  I know what i have to do now and it is achievable.

We have to be so clear about our cores, don't we?  Therein lies the truth.



Off to work and out of the boards till tomorrow morning on this side of the planet.  Sleep well.

Satinjoy,

I would say that I am in a similar situation to you - if I did not have my dysphoria to deal with, I would say that I have an idyllic life - a very well respected, well paying job, wife, and kids.  For as long as I can remember, I have been wrestling with my faith as a Christian, and with where my dysphoria fits in the whole picture.  Should I transition, it would likely mean the end of everything that I have worked for.

There are only three inevitabilities that I know of in life - getting older, taxes, and death.  Anything else, and there is a way out - it just may be the harder path to follow and the question one should ask is, is it the better path for oneself?

If it is, then the difficulties encountered will be worth it.  Don't forget that plans change as circumstances change as well, and being flexible to enough to change tack is important.

As far as I'm concerned, being transgender sucks - either which way I follow is a compromised final outcome - it just boils down to which one is more tolerable.

There is really nothing more that I can add to this conversation except to continue to be amazed by the courage and thoughtfulness I find here.  SJ, you are remarkable - beyond remarkable actually.  You all keep me out of various places where the doors are steel and the locks are large.  I spend every lunch break, many hours in the middle of the night, and frequent other snatches of time learning from everyone here, and for that I give thanks.

j

Quote from: Jessica Merriman on May 07, 2014, 06:59:00 PM
My opinion may not be valid here, but I will try.

All opinions are valid here.

As for the problem itself, I can't be much help, sorry. From my perspective the inside is already non-binary and the outside is mostly irrelevant to the problem. I think this probably comes about from entering the non-binary space from a different direction.

Hope you find something that works though.