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A (long) introspection about one's worldview and being inclusive...

Started by Carrie Liz, May 07, 2014, 08:51:41 PM

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Carrie Liz

Have you ever realized just how much your own world view is shaped by your own experiences?

When you really get down to it, all that you have in life is your own experience... the way that your own mind works, the way that you feel when certain things happen, the way that you see the world. And whenever you are looking at someone, whenever you are talking to someone about their own problems, whether you realize it or not, you are trying to frame their experiences, to empathize with them, based on your own similar experiences. They might talk about how a breakup felt to them. And maybe in your mind you're remembering when you went through your own breakup, trying to tap into those emotions and therefore understand how the other person is feeling. In reality, though, you will never know exactly what other people are feeling or experiencing. When they speak of joy, you have no idea whether it's the same feeling of joy that you get or not, or whether it's the same kind of depression, or the same kind of love, or the same kind of dysphoria. All you can do is take the experiences they describe and try to understand them within the context of your own experiences.

For example... when I first started experiencing sexual thoughts at the age of 14, I just assumed that I was heterosexual, because I was looking at naked women just like other guys. So therefore I just assumed that everyone was attracted to women for the same reasons that I was. So I assumed that every single guy experienced sexual excitement toward women as imagining that they were them, of looking at the body parts that they didn't have and being fascinated by them, wishing that they could have them. I assumed this was what it meant to be attracted to a woman. And had I been in the same position of power as, say, Freud at the time, I might have very well written an article about how guys are born with an inherent "vagina envy" and that this was where their subconscious sexual desires came from. I was completely shocked when I discovered that other guys weren't experiencing this... that they were actually imagining sleeping with the woman, touching the woman, having sex with them as a male. And it was only then that I started to realize that my own natural way of seeing and experiencing the world was "different" or "abnormal."

I imagine that this is why many men can so easily write off trans women as just being sexual deviants. Because their only experience is that of looking at a female body and being attracted to her in a sexual-fantasy way. And so they just automatically try to frame the experience of trans women within that own limited experience, and therefore think that trans women are just men who have some sort of kinky desire to turn their bodies into sexually-desirable female bodies, to become the person that they would want to sleep with.

When you think about it, this is very similar to the experience of what having a "disorder" is like. Just look at the word "disorder" in itself. That word can only exist if there is already an established "order" that something can therefore not be a part of. When you think about it, a "disorder" is nothing but a bunch of doctors sitting in a room and arbitrarily deciding what is "abnormal" based on how it deviates from their own views of what is "functional" and "normal." If every single person in the world were transsexual, then my experiences would be completely 100% normal, and it wouldn't be seen as a disorder. To me, what I experienced was "normal." And other people only see me as abonormal or disordered because they don't think the same way as me. And this is similar to the way that a person with asberger's or autism or bipolar disorder sees the world. To them, they are normal. This experience, this way that their mind works, it is the only way that they've ever interacted with the world, the only thing that they have ever known. So they probably don't understand why everyone sees them as not "normal," because they too at one point probably thought that everyone thinks in the exact way that they do. And it was only when they learned that others don't that they realized there was anything "wrong" with them.



This is the way that we understand the world. We have only our own experiences to go on. To us they are normal. But we can categorize ourselves, align ourselves with others who have the same life experiences that we do, because society gives us a label to fit under. Thus we come to have a defining label for who we are, based on how well we empathize with the shared experiences of others under that same label. When we realize our experiences are different from those who are "male" or "female," we look for what label does have experiences like ours.

We currently live in a binary system. Currently there are only two options. Male or female. So we try and define ourselves by which of these options are the best fit for us. If those that we label as MtFs grew up in India or in a Native American culture, they wouldn't identify as "female," they'd likely have an entirely different label... hjiras, or "two-spirit." Likewise, FtMs in early-century culture might be "proclaimed virgins" rather than "male." What we identify as is a product of our culture... we are forced to look at the labels of "male" and "female" and decide which one we fit into better.

This is why lots of trans kids have different experiences with realizing that they were trans at different ages. It all depends on how long it took us to realize that we did not fit into the category assigned to us. For many, they realized that they weren't playing with the same toys or wanting to wear the same clothes as others of their birth gender were from a very young age, and therefore they quickly realized that they did not fit the label assigned to them, and adopted the other label which did fit them better. For others like me, it wasn't until the physical differentiation between the sexes happened, where I realized that I didn't want a deep voice, and that the body I felt like I should have was one with smooth skin, without body hair, with a feminine shape and feminine fat distribution, and that my external genitals felt wrong. Therefore in this binary system where I had to choose either male or female to describe myself, the best fit was female. For others, being "female" probably means different things, like being treated like a girl socially, or even just wearing female clothes. It completely depends on what makes each individual trans person feel like they fit the label of their identity gender better than their birth gender.

It even took me a long time to figure out that I fit the label of "transsexual." The very first time that I was introduced to this label of "transsexual," it was presented to me as a label involving people who wanted to surgically alter their bodies to become more like the female sex. And so I did not adopt this label, because I did not want surgery, I wanted to become feminine naturally, and therefore I didn't think I identified with it. It wasn't until years later, when I was finally introduced to the label of "transsexual taking hormone replacement therapy" via Youtube and this site, and I realized that the effects of hormones matched up almost exactly with what I wanted, that I knew I had to go on HRT. And I'm still constantly trying to frame my own transition, my own desires, based on reading stories, seeing which ones are closest to my own experience, and therefore trying to decide whether I'm in the "pre-op" or "non-op" group, whether I'm in the "feminine" group or the "androgyne" group, and whether I really am a binary MtF or whether I'm more bigender or genderfluid.

But this is exactly why I believe we should be more inclusive. In any system, the labels are merely best-fits. They are merely describing the shared experiences of some people, and therefore those who feel the same can gather under that same label and say "this is who I am." But again, every single label is a best-fit. "Male" and "Female" don't fit everyone. "Trans woman" or "trans man" don't fit everyone. "Homosexual," "heterosexual," and "bisexual" don't fit everyone. In reality, almost everything is a bell curve, endless shades of gray, with certain aspects fitting but other aspects not fitting. (In case you want to see a great TED talk on this, look up "50 Shades of Gay." It revealed that when a survey gave options beyond "gay" and "straight," and instead gave people a scale from 0 to 100, most weren't exclusively homosexual or heterosexual. The most common answer was around 70% to 80%. So really, very few fit into the label of "gay" or "straight" perfectly. They just adopted it as a best-fit.)

So who are we to say that someone is not "trans enough" because they do not completely fit the label of what we see as being "trans." Because ultimately that label is meaningless... it is just a group of people with shared experiences trying to classify themselves with a best-fit. So maybe to one individual person under that label, being "trans" means identifying as the opposite sex they were assigned at birth, wanting to socially be that sex, having the mannerisms and interests of that sex, and getting SRS. Suppose there's another person who agrees with all of that, except doesn't want SRS. Is this person somehow not trans? Who are people to say? At what point do the differences outweigh the similarities and force people to create an entirely new category? It's all meaningless. It's a binary system trying to classify non-binary people who can exist in any number of different arrangements and no two are exactly alike.



The world won't end by allowing people to be exactly who they know themselves to be, by continuing to go about exactly the way that they are hardwired to go, to not worry about labels. The problem comes when those who do fit into those labels try and tell others that their world view is wrong, that they can't be a "man" or a "woman" because of certain things that they do, or that they can't be "trans" because they don't have the desire to do this thing or that thing. Or worst of all, trying to get people to do one thing or another just for the sake of making them fit the label better. And IMO, this is where so much confusion arises. So many people feel pressured into changing their bodies just because they don't fit into society's ideal label of what that group should be, pressured into suppressing certain behaviors because they don't fit with our own prescribed labels of what is and is not "normal."

Suppose a man wants to get SRS while still identifying as male. What's the problem? Nothing. Just not fitting into some arbitrary label. Suppose a trans man wants to live in the male social role without actually changing his body to be male because he feels comfortable with his body as it is. What's the problem? Again, nothing. He's not doing anything wrong by being himself. The only "problem" is that he doesn't fit into a certain label perfectly. Suppose a trans woman wants to change everything about her body but is fine keeping her penis. What's the problem? NOTHING. They know what they want, and they know how they identify. More power to them. There is NEVER anything wrong with being yourself, whatever that self may entail, and regardless of whether or whether not they live up to certain qualifications associated with certain labels which are ultimately just best-fit creations in the first place.



So this is why I believe we, and EVERYONE, should be more open-minded and be more inclusive. Because you can't ever know what is going on in someone else's head. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it works for them. Just because this is what fitting into a certain label means for you doesn't mean that's what it means to everyone else. And ultimately, the true truth of the trans community, and life in general, needs to be that there is never anything wrong with being yourself and doing what you need to do in order to be happy. Never compromise yourself just to "fit in" better, and never belittle another just because you don't think that they "fit in."

Let people be people. And remember, there's no "wrong" way to be human, to be male or female, to be trans or cis, to express one's femininity or masculinity. There is nothing wrong with being yourself. It only becomes "wrong" because other people can't understand it from their own limited views.
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Ltl89

I wish there was more respect for variance within the community.  Respect for different experiences, feelings, desires and beliefs. Sometimes it feels there is a need to demand conformity and submission to create a homogeneous culture within the trans community.  Fact is we are better respecting our differences and empathizing with them rather than pushing everyone to be a certain way.  Maybe diversity can appear as an afront to some in an already marginalized community, but it really shouldn't be that way as can can respect one another while going about and seeing life differently.  Seriously, the world really isn't black and white.  Everyone can get along by respecting their differences and embracing their own individualism.  Conformity should never be a requirement.  Sadly, the dialogue doesn't usually play out that way in the end.  One of the reasons the trans community can be toxic despite the fact that it's really not needed or healthy for it.

Great Post Carrie.  I've been reflecting on this too and you put it much better than I ever could.  You make a lot of thought provoking statements and you're an excellent writer.  :)

Whoops, I may TL;DR ;)
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Carrie Liz

Quote from: learningtolive on May 08, 2014, 01:16:14 AM
Whoops, I may TL;DR ;)

HA!!! "Yup, your comment was too long for me to read," says the girl who just posted a 2200-word essay... ;)

(sorry... when I really start thinking deeply about something and get what I feel is a big revelation about it, it's never going to be short.)

Thanks for the kudos! :)
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Donna Elvira

Hi Carrie,
I agree with LTL that you write beautifully and think I already said that in a reaction to at least one of your previous posts. It's a talent you might want to keep in mind as you go forward in life.

Other than that, what you say is effectively very true, no two people on this planet experience life in exactly the same way, a fact that is neatly summarized in the phrase "perception is projection" ie. we don't see the world as it is but as we are.

When comparing our own experiences with those of others it is very healthy to keep that in mind as it guarantees a far more respectful  approach to the way we manage our interactions and relationships.

However, on a more general level, it is also impossible for us not to make generalisations eg. cars have four wheels, a motor and are a useful means for getting from point A to point B. Two + two = four. Too much alcohol will make you drunk. Woman have smooth skin, boobs, curvy bodies, high pitched voices and vaginas. etc etc. .

All learning is based on generalisations ie. applying a model we have integrated from previous experience to a new situation and expecting a similar outcome.

If you accept this, you quickly understand why people can be quite resistant to anything that challenges the models they have already integrated. Unless strongly motivated to do so, it's just too much trouble and if we had to reinvent our models everyday eg. start every interaction with every person we meet as if we were discovering other human beings for the first time, we would quickly run into a brick wall, our brains incapable of processing all the new information we would have to integrate.

End of the day, like it or not, we just can't prevent people from making generalisations and when we talk about "normality" that is exactly what we are talking about, general rules that can be applied to situation, people etc.. which allow us to navigate through all the situations we have to deal with without having to re-evaluate everything from scratch every time.

However, like anything, generalisations can be pushed too far and lead to very rigid thinking so, while necessary for our survival, we also need to keep in mind that many won't apply to all situations, especially when we are talking about such complex beings as as humans.

In general (another generalisation  ;)) the more varied our own personal experience, the more open we are to the fact that things can be perceived and done in different ways but again, our natural tendancy; from laziness, personal comfort or whatever, is to mix with people who are like ourselves, read stuff that confirms what we already believe etc. etc.   ie. live in our own self built mental ghetto.

So, end of the day, while I agree with pretty well everything you say, I wouldn't hold my breath while waiting for things to change....

Warm regards.
Donna

P.S. NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) provides an interesting approach to how we process information. If you are not already familiar with the subject, this article might be of interest to you : http://jevondangeli.com/the-nlp-communication-model/

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Feather

Beautiful post, thank you so much for that..! I wished your liberating take on all of this was actually the norm, but as long as there is a majority-something then they will always be the ones to decide the norm and the others will always be fighting for their place. I'm struggling myself with all of it because within I feel both fem/masc.
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Carrie Liz

Quote from: Donna E on May 08, 2014, 03:14:49 AM

P.S. NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming) provides an interesting approach to how we process information. If you are not already familiar with the subject, this article might be of interest to you : http://jevondangeli.com/the-nlp-communication-model/

Very neat! I think the way that the mind works is really fascinating! (I blame my mom... she's a psychology professor. :P)

Quote from: Donna E on May 08, 2014, 03:14:49 AM
However, on a more general level, it is also impossible for us not to make generalisations eg. cars have four wheels, a motor and are a useful means for getting from point A to point B. Two + two = four. Too much alcohol will make you drunk. Woman have smooth skin, boobs, curvy bodies, high pitched voices and vaginas. etc etc. .

I actually had an interesting thought about that, too. I realized that basically none of those absolute "rules" that we make really have any significance in the grand scheme of things. For example, the "1+3=4" one. People take math as being absolute truth, absolute rules of the universe. But in the grand scheme of things, it only has any significance because it is human beings trying to quantify things. In the grand scheme of the universe, it's basically like saying "this amount of things, which we humans are going to call "three," plus this group of things that we humans are going to call "one," together create this other group of things that we are going to call "four." Basically, math only matters because we are trying to understand the universe from our own perspectives, assigning values to things. If there were no people to assign values to things, NONE of the practical laws of the universe would have any significance. It would just be "some group of objects that has no ultimate significance plus some other group of objects that has no ultimate significance equals another group of objects that has no ultimate significance."

People can say "well, it doesn't matter whether we created the value or not, 1+3 still equals 4." And the question is, why does three or four even matter? Why is there any more or less significance to different values? "Maybe because a larger group of objects has a greater gravitational pull, or more mass," you say. "Because the movement of the planets and other absolute laws dictated by logic would happen whether humans observed them or not." But if we weren't here to observe them, that movement wouldn't matter whatsoever. The only reason why the movement matters is because we humans are trying to understand it. Again, in the grand scheme of the universe, it's just a bunch of matter existing. And ultimately, it doesn't matter how they interact or move or anything, it's just stuff being stuff. It only becomes significant at all because we humans are trying to understand it.

So when you think about it, really EVERY law is manmade. It only exists because we are trying to better understand the world around us and to make rules that help us understand its existence. You being lighter or smaller than a big rock ultimately means nothing to the universe as a whole. You're both just existing and you are how you are and it doesn't matter. But its weight and size and shape do indeed matter, and do indeed become important, when you need to know whether you can lift that rock or not.

This kind of just blew my mind when I realized it, that EVERYTHING we think we know in this world basically only exists the way we know it because it's humans trying to understand things and give them significance relative to our lives.

Like, what is the ultimate significance of two galaxies colliding? Nothing. Unless we're trying to understand what would happen to us if our galaxy collided with another. Then it becomes significant.
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Lordes

Carrie Liz,

You may find interesting a book called "The way things are" or "On the nature of things" by Lucretius who lived from about 99 BC to about 55 BC.  In this epic poem, Lucretius argues that things simply are as they seem without need for human made stories about their existence.  A tree is a tree.  If you experience its beauty, that too simply exists without any explanation.  The same holds true for different people, who also simply exist.

While story making can have utility, believing the stories we create causes no end of harm and hassle.

Lordes
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Donna Elvira

Quote from: Carrie Liz on May 08, 2014, 10:49:52 AM
Very neat! I think the way that the mind works is really fascinating! (I blame my mom... she's a psychology professor. :P)


Carrie,
I can't say I have read all of your inputs (you're quite a prolific contributor here  :)), but unless I have missed out on a lot, that is the first time I have seen you make any reference to your Mom?  Very interesting given how much you have written on so many other subjects...

Other than that, I can only agree with you that all the conventions, models etc.. we have adopted are just an attempt to bring some order to our existance but I can't see how we could actually live without them. As to the mystery of our existance, that's a subject I will steer well clear of on a forum such as this, if not to say, steer clear of full stop. A good deal older than you, I have given up any attempt to make some sense out of my life and now just focus on making the best of it, one day, one step at time... ;) 
Bises!
Donna 
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BunnyBee

Yes.  Exactly so.   Everybody is a mirror, when we look at the people surrounding us, we see pieces of ourselves.  When we see things about ourselves that we don't like, we may lash out.  This has helped me deal with insults better, understanding that they are just little projections of insecurity or self-hate.  When you see them that way, for what they really are, you more feel bad for the insulter than for yourself.

And yeah. It leads us to not understand people that are different than ourselves, or more often, misunderstand them.  Take their experience that they describe and ascribe it to a box that we can understand, i.e., a chunk of ourself, in other words, experiences we have had.  And often just discount the parts that we can't identify with.  "Well you must be wrong about that bit, cause I never have felt that way."  Which is ofc invalidating and then comes an argument.

I don't know how we don't do this.  It's kind of how we process the world, and to do something different would almost be not human.  But just, understand, be aware that we are doing this and that everybody else is too, I think that can help keep us from getting too insulting or invalidating of each other.  You just have to believe somebody when they say they experience something you don't understand.
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Carrie Liz

Quote from: Jen on May 08, 2014, 01:04:59 PM
Yes.  Exactly so.   Everybody is a mirror, when we look at the people surrounding us, we see pieces of ourselves.  When we see things about ourselves that we don't like, we may lash out.  This has helped me deal with insults better, understanding that they are just little projections of insecurity or self-hate.  When you see them that way, for what they really are, you more feel bad for the insulter than for yourself.

And yeah. It leads us to not understand people that are different than ourselves, or more often, misunderstand them.  Take their experience that they describe and ascribe it to a box that we can understand, i.e., a chunk of ourself, in other words, experiences we have had.  And often just discount the parts that we can't identify with.  "Well you must be wrong about that bit, cause I never have felt that way."  Which is ofc invalidating and then comes an argument.

I don't know how we don't do this.  It's kind of how we process the world, and to do something different would almost be not human.  But just, understand, be aware that we are doing this and that everybody else is too, I think that can help keep us from getting too insulting or invalidating of each other.  You just have to believe somebody when they say they experience something you don't understand.

I think you hit the nail on the head. That's a great conclusion to draw from the way we process things... to simply realize that we process them that way, even if we can't change it. And therefore to realize that other people are only looking at you through their own limited experience, so we shouldn't get too hurt by it. And that we are also products of our own limited experiences, and therefore we should respect others even if we can't truly empathize with them.

Also, as another addition to this... because of the realization that others are only gendering you and labeling you through their own ideal labels of what makes someone "male" or "female," we can realize that we have a right to correct them. All that they're doing is telling you that you don't fit into their own limited ideas of what a certain label entails, and deciding that they know you and they know what makes someone a "man" or a "woman" better than you know yourself. You have a right to disagree with them.
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JulieBlair

Quote from: Carrie Liz on May 08, 2014, 10:49:52 AM

So when you think about it, really EVERY law is manmade. It only exists because we are trying to better understand the world around us and to make rules that help us understand its existence. You being lighter or smaller than a big rock ultimately means nothing to the universe as a whole. You're both just existing and you are how you are and it doesn't matter. But its weight and size and shape do indeed matter, and do indeed become important, when you need to know whether you can lift that rock or not.

This kind of just blew my mind when I realized it, that EVERYTHING we think we know in this world basically only exists the way we know it because it's humans trying to understand things and give them significance relative to our lives.

Like, what is the ultimate significance of two galaxies colliding? Nothing. Unless we're trying to understand what would happen to us if our galaxy collided with another. Then it becomes significant.

You are in good company David Hume and Rene' Descartes spent their rather remarkable lives trying to come to grips with these Ideas.

There was thread a week or so ago about how inclusive the trans umbrella is, or ought to be.  Because we necessarily live our lives in an internal model of the world rather than in objective reality, it seems to me that the heuristics we adopt to create mental shortcuts tend towards discrete points rather than a smooth continuum.  So we end up with man/woman cis/trans etc.  Gender nonconforming or gender queer is harder to wrap up simply, and so we end up talking about what points to include under the criteria we have defined.

Lordes is insightful quoting Lucretius, and in the same manner the collision of galaxies has significance to the cosmos regardless of where it is observed by people.  Things happen, we interpret and assign meaning.  I am a cis man and trans woman.  I have a mostly male history, and mostly female future.  There is congruence, but not synchronicity in my experience of life.  OK, so what? Because I am part of a tiny minority the need to do what I can to expand the community and make visible the consequences of gender discrimination and repression exists and this has importance for me.  The shorthand of binary, trinary, quaternary etc gender categorization makes that conversation possible, but also limited.  I don't really know to to reconcile this stuff or even if it is necessary.

At the end of the day, I am willing to work to ensure that non traditional gender identification doesn't result in destroying lives.  Children, young adult, even older folks like me.  That the courts have ruled that we are within the umbrella of title seven is a start.  That a growing number of cities and states are passing housing and human rights ordinances that keep us safe is also a boon.  But until trans kids are safe and heard; trans men and women are not denied opportunity because of their gender identity; until society matures so that we are not objectified and dismissed as a class; we will not be full members of the body politic.

Because "every law is man made" may not affect the universe, but it sure affects me. I am a product of my internal identity, training, and experience.  I hope to be useful to the trans community, and to people in general.  Believe it or not I'm not a trans zealot, but I am zealous about opportunity for all people, and this is the community in which I live.

God I''m all over the place, If you are able to glean something useful and interesting from this I hope you let me know.  ;)

Love you all,

Julie
I am my own best friend and my own worst enemy.  :D
Full Time 18 June 2014
Esprit can be found at http://espritconf.com/
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BunnyBee

I am keenly aware of this because of another recent thread where I was challenged to imagine being somebody for whom the binary system does not align with their sense of self and to be considerate of how I word things so that I don't accidentally invalidate somebody's existence.  I think out of 42 tries I have failed 42 times, because I'm just trying to see the world through eyes that I don't have.  Because I was raised under this system, and even though I have challenged the binary just by being trans, I don't know what it feels like to have the binary challenge me.  In other words, I see the system, what it expects, then I see myself and I see mostly congruence.  There isn't tension there.

And it is kind of a small distinction—small enough that I can make the leap and sort of understand, conceptually, how it must feel to be on the outside of it.  And I am empathic enough to really, really not want to poke at something that causes somebody pain, so I feel motivated to say the right things. But since it is still outside enough of my worldview, I just really struggle to say the right things, or not say the wrong things.  And then I question everything I say and I feel like that kind of is putting a kink in the flow of my ideas and thoughts.  Maybe its a good thing though.   Maybe some thoughts should not be allowed to flow freely all over the place.

Anyway, this is a very challenging, but real, idea, and its good to think about.
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Rachel

I have nothing to add other than this thread has help to add some depth, for me, on how and why people think the way they do.
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