Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 08:52:50 PM
I remember an older woman I knew ( I used to have a bunch of adult friends when i was younger for some reason). Doesn't matter who she is, let's call her Cassie.

Cassie was majorly a victim of being a woman. She grew up alone, the youngest child, shy and not approachable, didn't have many friends. She suffered from neglect but really what she was suffering from was so much deeper. She was being raped. For years, over and over again by her own uncle. She stumbled through her teens, alone and untreated for severe ptsd among others, and eventually she was raped again. Random incident. Several guys, cuz she made the mistake of going out alone at night. She had a brief period of clarity in college, and she got a degree, but she couldn't cope and never got a job in her field. She met a guy though, a guy who could never really love her, and moved in with him and became a housewife. Her life since has just been an issue of coping with the past and staying alive, she hasn't really made any progress. She spends days in dissociative fogs, she's ruined in self-inflicted scars, she has a history of suicide attempts and lives in a cycle of guilt about it and really hinestly wanting to try again. She can't enjoy life. She never will know how. She will always long to finally die and be free of it. She will always be haunted by this past, and sad thing is, no matter what anyone says, it's a past she probably wouldn't have had as a man, (and i say that as a male survivor of rape, it just doesn't happen that often to us, and even when it does, it's usually not the same) and there's nothing she could do to to avoid it, and nothing she did to deserve it. This story is not really rare. It's devastatingly common. All cuz some guy wanted to get off.

I remember hearing a statistic that something like 50% of men admitted anonymously that they would rape a woman if there was absolutely no chance of getting caught. Well, there ya have it. it's just gross. It's so messed up. I can't even begin to process it.

oh god, that's awful. 
I think one of the stats is one in every 3 women or something like that will experience sexual assault of some kind in her lifetime. Even if the stat's wrong, it's still pretty high. And that's only the ones we know about. Most don't report. And when you look at the world as a whole - honor killings, women being murdered because their rape 'dishonored' the family, etc. It seems like women were put on this earth to be hurt. 

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 08:26:44 PM
Hmm Well, a point I forgot in my little island girl story was that she would never be regarded as less than a woman because of her lack of socialization. Nobody would have ever questioned her. She's a woman as much as all the girls born there. I mean what is a girl? Is she a girl because of how she grew up? Don't know if you've heard of the boy in the box case. (unidentified boy in a box in the 50s or was it 60s)

Anyway, there was some speculation since his hair had been cut and nobody recognized him that he may have been raised as a girl. And that they cut his hair after death to cover this up. But anyway, if there was a boy (a cis boy with a male brain) raised as a girl, appearing to all the world as a girl, he would have gone through female socialization too. But he's a boy. I think that socialization is important, but it's not gender.

I know that this argument has been used against trans women, especially with the Mich fest thing. The whole WBW/girlhood thing. Well, I can understand that people who experienced a 'girlhood' want to heal from that. I disagree that women without that experience can't help with that. I mean, I'm sure that trans women have a similar childhood in common they might need help with as well.

As trans children are increasingly allowed to express themselves, I think this entire distinction won't be an issue in the future.  For example Coy Mathis (Colorado bathroom controversy) or Jazz (on ABC documentary).  They have spent virtually their entire childhood as girls and have been exposed to the same standards as any other girls. 

Even if one didn't have accepting parents, it's a sliding scale.  I mean, there's a big difference between someone transitioning at 18-20 and 50, as much as the difference between 18-20 and birth.  I'm going through all my 20's and 30's under these standards; I feel affected too.  Sometimes older trans women speak as if we've had the same experiences.  It's not black and white, trans vs. not, like the Mich fest organizers make it.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 09:10:21 PMIt seems like women were put on this earth to be hurt.

Yeah... sometimes it really feels that way, doesn't it?

I mean, what kind of woman, who isn't in some kind of obvious denial, is happy *to be* a woman? I mean, maybe they can't imagine anything else, and maybe... I mean maybe they found a good stride, but how many of them are actually happy about being a woman, not just indifferent? And how many could explain it in less than a quirky, uplifting, optimistic editorial piece? I think if you sat the average woman down and asked them how they benefit from being a woman vs being a man, like, to make a list, it would look pretty dreary. And it would prob mostly come down to access to resources they were raised to depend on or resources that were made to strip them of their individuality in the first place...

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 09:32:31 PM
Yeah... sometimes it really feels that way, doesn't it?

I mean, what kind of woman, who isn't in some kind of obvious denial, is happy *to be* a woman? I mean, maybe they can't imagine anything else, and maybe... I mean maybe they found a good stride, but how many of them are actually happy about being a woman, not just indifferent? And how many could explain it in less than a quirky, uplifting, optimistic editorial piece? I think if you sat the average woman down and asked them how they benefit from being a woman vs being a man, like, to make a list, it would look pretty dreary. And it would prob mostly come down to access to resources they were raised to depend on or resources that were made to strip them of their individuality in the first place...

I am.  I was absolutely miserable being a fake guy.  Testosterone made me indifferent to living, estrogen makes me happy.  I don't care what my social status is.  I was as good as dead, and now I want to live.  Ask everyone in my life what a difference transitioning has made for me.  It's like night and day.

Quote from: Jill F on May 08, 2014, 09:38:17 PM
I am.  I was absolutely miserable being a fake guy.  Testosterone made me indifferent to living, estrogen makes me happy.  I don't care what my social status is.  I was as good as dead, and now I want to live.  Ask everyone in my life what a difference transitioning has made for me.  It's like night and day.

But, don't you think you are a little blinded by dysphoria in terms of that question? Most women were never kept from being women, so they don't get the extra appreciation of not having to deal with living in a world that treats them as a different social group than what they feel like/know they are. When you compare, it's probably nice, but does that mean it's what it really should be?

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 09:32:31 PM
Yeah... sometimes it really feels that way, doesn't it?

I mean, what kind of woman, who isn't in some kind of obvious denial, is happy *to be* a woman?

Wow, really?  Aside from the point that completely invalidates trans women's state of mind, idk, maybe some people don't mind being what they are.  It's like saying a cat must want to be a human since they're more powerful (cats probably see us as big, stupid, clumsy cats).

Power is not the only factor in happiness.

QuoteI mean, maybe they can't imagine anything else, and maybe... I mean maybe they found a good stride, but how many of them are actually happy about being a woman, not just indifferent? And how many could explain it in less than a quirky, uplifting, optimistic editorial piece?

I'm sorry, but you have such a pessimistic outlook on womanhood it borders on sexism.

QuoteI think if you sat the average woman down and asked them how they benefit from being a woman vs being a man, like, to make a list, it would look pretty dreary. And it would prob mostly come down to access to resources they were raised to depend on or resources that were made to strip them of their individuality in the first place...

We strive for equality, but life isn't strictly a comparison.  If humans couldn't find happiness unless there was no group more privileged than themselves, there would be very few happy people.

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 09:58:18 PM
But, don't you think you are a little blinded by dysphoria in terms of that question? Most women were never kept from being women, so they don't get the extra appreciation of not having to deal with living in a world that treats them as a different social group than what they feel like/know they are. When you compare, it's probably nice, but does that mean it's what it really should be?

I am making do to best play the hand I got dealt.  Would I choose to be a ciswoman over a cisman in this world if I could have that choice?  Probably not.  I didn't get that choice.  Nobody does.  My brain is hard wired female, and it was running on the wrong fuel.  I could have chosen to remain miserable and I probably wouldn't be here typing this if I did.  I am much happier to be a living woman than a dying man.  Got it?

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 08:52:50 PM
I remember hearing a statistic that something like 50% of men admitted anonymously that they would rape a woman if there was absolutely no chance of getting caught. Well, there ya have it. it's just gross. It's so messed up. I can't even begin to process it.

And this kind of thing is why I can't relate to men. I say I'm bisexual because I could easily be intimate with one, but I could never have a relationship with one.

Around here a few years back, near the college, we had a rapist preying on joggers. One evening at dusk he attacked a lone jogger. She had just finished her mandatory service in the Israeli army before coming to the states to finish her education. She was an expert at Krav Maga. He didn't come out of it with too many unbroken bones.

Inanna... I'm not gonna be the one who started this again. It's not worse to be a woman... just, women are treated worse and given worse. You don't have to be happy with that just cuz you can't help being a woman, and I don't think many women are happy with that, all things considered. Does that make what I meant clearer? :c

Quote from: sad panda on May 08, 2014, 10:07:24 PM
Inanna... I'm not gonna be the one who started this again. It's not worse to be a woman... just, women are treated worse and given worse. You don't have to be happy with that just cuz you can't help being a woman, and I don't think many women are happy with that, all things considered. Does that make what I meant clearer? :c

If you had asked what kind of woman is happy with inequality who isn't in denial, I'm totally on board.

Quote from: Inanna on May 08, 2014, 10:10:57 PM
If you had asked what kind of woman is happy with inequality who isn't in denial, I'm totally on board.

Awesome! Sorry if my wording was bad, that's what I meant.

<sorry been posting and just now saw there were more replies>

Hmm well I get what Sad Panda's saying. I think trans women have a different perspective because they've had to fight for their womanhood. But from an objective perspective, the outlook for being female is kinda bleak compared to being a man. I mean, you're smaller, weaker, a target for rape and harassment, not viewed as an equal in this world, judged primarily on your body etc.

And what perks you're given are based on your lower status - you're seen as weak, so less of a threat. So people are more likely to help you. And (most often) men are inclined to help you because they think there's a 'reward' in it for them.  yeah. They could be your dad's (or even grandpa's) age and they'll help you alright. Cause they hope there's a reward. Being a young, attractive female is sort of being like a lost puppy. You're alone, cold, hungry, scared and just want to come home. But those most likely to help you see this giant reward sign on you.

<sigh> It's just that most perks of being female are really tainted. And you feel all slimey when you think about it.

I mean, I get that being female for someone who actually is female is a lot better than being male. But any upside to being female (aside from motherhood and children) is based on either having a lower status or being objectified.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 10:21:09 PM
<sorry been posting and just now saw there were more replies>

Hmm well I get what Sad Panda's saying. I think trans women have a different perspective because they've had to fight for their womanhood. But from an objective perspective, the outlook for being female is kinda bleak compared to being a man. I mean, you're smaller, weaker, a target for rape and harassment, not viewed as an equal in this world, judged primarily on your body etc.

And what perks you're given are based on your lower status - you're seen as weak, so less of a threat. So people are more likely to help you. And (most often) men are inclined to help you because they think there's a 'reward' in it for them.  yeah. They could be your dad's (or even grandpa's) age and they'll help you alright. Cause they hope there's a reward. Being a young, attractive female is sort of being like a lost puppy. You're alone, cold, hungry, scared and just want to come home. But those most likely to help you see this giant reward sign on you.

<sigh> It's just that most perks of being female are really tainted. And you feel all slimey when you think about it.

I mean, I get that being female for someone who actually is female is a lot better than being male. But any upside to being female (aside from motherhood and children) is based on either having a lower status or being objectified.

FA, so your calling us useless unless we are low status and/or mothering?  meanie! lol

It sure beats being dead though.

but is FA's statement calling us useless? i mean i get its better than dead but still, we are human beings after all o.o

Quote from: Umiko Liliana on May 08, 2014, 10:28:36 PM
but is FA's statement calling us useless? i mean i get its better than dead but still, we are human beings after all o.o

lol no honey. Not useless at all. Just that women, especially young women (since this is my only experience) are seen in certain ways.

Quote from: FA on May 08, 2014, 10:32:41 PM
lol no honey. Not useless at all. Just that women, especially young women (since this is my only experience) are seen in certain ways.

had me going there for a second. lol

Quote from: Jill F on May 08, 2014, 10:25:00 PM
It sure beats being dead though.

Oh I agree. And I don't know that most cis women given the choice, wouldn't remain female. I mean, it's who they are. It just sucks that it comes with all this baggage.

Anyway, just to clarify: my experience was that of a little girl and a young woman. I don't have personal experience beyond that. I don't know what it's like to be a middle aged or older woman for example.

It's not alllllll bad

I Feel down now. I Hoped that in the future trans aceptence would create an increasingly andro society. And that in that society gender exspectations would eventually disapier.

But looking like a woman inst the only factor smaller and more vulnarable is too. So even if this andro society exsisted asigned woman more ofteen than not would still be born into the small and vulnarable catagory

Up antill now I had always thought i was raped because they wanted a boy. And just now understand the being smaller side to it.