And started looking through a ton of the before and after pics and could hardly believe my jealously. They seem to do SO well on hormones compared to us.  I mean I know the whole "You look great!" sentiment we tell each other in our thread, but the ftm seem to by and large do significantly better job with passing off as their chosen gender than we do.  It always sucks being transgendered as opposed to simply being born in the gender we identify with to begin with. But it seems like even in these matters we drew the short stick.

The difference in the challenges we face are real. It might be easier to go one direction than the other, for many reasons.

But I'm often "sneaking" into the mtf photo threads. I don't comment, but I see beautiful, beautiful people there, too. There are so many posts where people really question themselves, and I just see pretty and cute and beauty.

That's partly true, just because T is a stronger hormone than E. So it's a bit harder for us to get over the effects of puberty, assuming we had to endure that.

There is a reason why facial surgery for trans women is a thing.

However, it's also that a lot of the more passable trans women are uncomfortable posting pictures of themselves online. We are much more likely to get our pics stolen and used in inappropriate ways, and we are more likely to be careful about maintaining our stealth due to the higher physical and social risks. Which means a lot of the pics that you get to see are people who are quite early in transition, before they become invisible and no longer want their pictures on the internet.

So ya, you'll never see a pic of me here or of any of my IRL trans female friends because the risk is just too high.

I've noticed that Ftm transition more gracefully most of the time than Mtf, and i have a theory as to why.

I've rationalized that as Mtf, the key is to LOSE things. Reduced muscle mass, reduced fat, reduce body hair, lose equipment (if desired) etc. and as we all know about the human body ~ losing is more difficult than gaining. Its easier to gain fat and muscle and etc for EVERYONE. Getting rid of hair is more difficult than actually growing it (because all you gotta do is wait lol)

For FTM its mostly about GAINING. Gaining muscle, gaining hair etc. so when you lack something that needs to be added, the result is always better. As I learned in college "its always better to have too much instead of not enough."

I dont dare say that they have an easier time in the transition because we all have our trials and trouble, but the results tend to be better for FTMs and ironically enough the only thing they need to lose is breasts and the only thing they need to gain is bottom surgery, while for MTF its the exact reverse lol.

And yes, T is a stronger hormone than E.  But its equally as difficult for a lot of FTMs because just as we have a hard time not seeing the man in the mirror, ive spoken to many FTM's who feel the same way about constantly still seeing the girl in the mirror. In the end, the physical transition may be more seamless than MTFs, but the rest of the challenges are there for them just as they are there for us, and having been on elevated T in my past... I can't imagine its easy to get a random RUSH of T after years of your body naturally producing E... it must be nightmarish from time to time...

I think if you look at each different aspect of both transitions  and compared  the pluses and minuses It probably comes out pretty equal taking everything into account.

I usually leave pics of myself up for a day or two to sort of mitigate the risk Sarah is talking about, but I am aware it doesn't remove the risk completely by any means.

Well, testosterone is a one way trip. Once you form male skeletal characteristics, facial hair, and baldness, it's there for good.

Still wouldn't want to be going the other way. In my experience (YMMV) the world is a whole lot nicer, friendlier, and open to females, and I really feel for FtMs who are forced by gender to enter into the cold world of being male.

I think you're experiencing a 'grass is greener' type effect; as MtF we've spent our lives obsessing over little details we feel will 'give us away', and as such when we transition those little details become magnified to the extreme in our minds. Not only that, but through viewing/critiquing other MtF we've trained ourselves to hone in like a laser, and thus in our minds convince ourselves of our 'non-passability'. In many ways we've simply fallen prey to the same kind of impossibly high, idealized, unfair beauty standards that torment cis-women.

I'm sure FtM face precisely the same self-doubt and low self-esteem that we do when looking in the mirror (always seeing the 'boy/'girl' they once were), no matter how successful their transition.

Quote from: suzifrommd on May 09, 2014, 12:08:08 PM
Still wouldn't want to be going the other way. In my experience (YMMV) the world is a whole lot nicer, friendlier, and open to females, and I really feel for FtMs who are forced by gender to enter into the cold world of being male.

This made me giggle because ironically i was just talking to my wife and my mom about the very fact that being male results in a world of expectations from society. Most of the time Cismen act as though being a man takes some sort of initiation rite of passage... I'm still early as hell in my transition and still look quite male, yet women everwhere I go treat me as another woman.

I have a transmale friend who has been dressing male for the past 10 years (he didnt know about transitioning as a possibility nor about what transgender even was lol) and even though he chose a male name, behaves male, dresses male, even SMELLS male lol, his guy friends simply CANT seem to "accept" the fact even 10 years later.

I think being trans sucks whether you are female or male.  It's just a hardship that sort of reduces you to a second class citizen regardless.  I'm sorry this isn't positive, but I really find it hard to see this in an optimistic way.  We just all have to make the best of it and that requires minimizing potential problems which differ for transmen and women.  We all have our own set of issues and I'm sure there are hardships to go around.

That being said mtfs and ftms seem to prioritize passing in different ways.  It's important to both sides, but there is an obsession with it in the mtf community for good reason.  Almost every transguy  that I've met seems more confident and relaxed compared to their mtf counterparts regardless of their presentation.  Still a lot of men have passing issues to, so I don't want to invalidate anyone by claiming anything other than that.  It's not easy for any of us.  It's just I feel the need to pass and blend is sort of increased for transwomen by the way we are viewed.  But maybe I'm focusing too much on my own issues and blinded by that, so forgive me if I am.

But yeah, how I wish hormones worked more and that this wouldn't be an issue.  I seriously wonder if I am going to make it out of this okay and have doubts about my future.  I just wish it were easier and not so freaking hard to be trans in general. 

Part of what helps guys become invisible is that the visual expectations that seem to go hand in hand with being a woman just isn't there. Guys can look like crap and it's passed of as an off day but for a woman it might seem like a bad day or she let herself go. And physically, yes, I think their transformation is awesome! I've watch Birkin transition (we video chat every day) and watching videos of him pre-transition is so weird for me because he looks so very masculine now.

"So I sneaked into the FtM forum..." Ewww! Why would you want to go there?

But seriously, learningtolive make a good point when she says, "It's just a hardship that sort of reduces you to a second class citizen regardless." I think it's a good thing when we understand that FfM's have many of the same difficulties in life as MtFs, albeit with a different package. Yes, some of the (additive) changes available to them usually do result in a better and easier presentation (of course not always), and those changes are external, not representative of the internal difficulties. I've come to understand that they deserve just as much love, respect and compassion as everyone else.

It would all be so much simpler if someone could figure out which part of the brain contains the soul, so that it could be simply swapped with that of a (fairly pretty) FtM.

I think guys have it easier. It has to do with the power of T, as someone mentioned. It doesn't even matter how old you are, because T works it's "magic" regardless of your age. OTOH, for the gals they are going against all the changes that are produced by T. Estrogen is more of a subtle hormone, I guess I'd say. Another thing, due to male privilege, most (but not all) FTMs don't have to convince a psychologist we're not crazy. And IME there is as much social prejudice. Men do not feel that FTMs go into their bathrooms to rape them. For real, I have been congratulated for being male, which I think is strange but oh well. The arrest rate for FTMs is more like the average for cis people, and there is no penalty (except in some areas) of walking while trans male.

When you get to GCS/ SRS the male surgeries are multiple step and harder and there are less surgeons skills at them. I also believe we lack the visibility which has it's negatives. I did not know FTMs even existed, or if they did they were statistically very very rare. I know now that isn't true.

I think FTMs have our own struggles, and sometimes the rate of change creates its own issues as well as for those who don't seem to change as much. Obviously there are the issues that all trans people face--family, work, etc.


--Jay

I pretty much hated being a guy most of the time.  I hate the hair everywhere, couldn't stand to smell myself and all the rest. So becoming a trans person was completely life affirming.  Yep the guys are by and large more convincing, but I would rather have my bottom surgery than theirs.  If the element of safety didn't enter into it, it might be a wash.  But people hurt and kill trans women, and it isn't rare. I don't know the comparable statistics, but the danger of being trans falls predominantly on the girls.  Kinda like in the cis world, only magnefied many times.

Does being trans suck?  Sometimes, it would be lovely to be accepted at face value as who I know inside that I am; Or at least not mocked.  It would be only reasonable if our human civil and employment rights were protected and honored.  But I love being a girl, even if not everyone accepts me as such.  Living in the guy world is gray and sad.  Here there is color, and for me at least, new opportunity.  Everything is brighter, smells better, is more supportive, at least here at Susan's, and among my friends.

Now bear in mind this is coming from someone who a week ago was thinking about killing herself.  Sometimes it is so hard as to be impossible.  But most of the time I wouldn't trade who I am now for all the yesterdays I've known.  I would rather sneak into their side now and then for a peak, and then run back here, as quickly as I can in heels.

Julie

Quote from: Sarah7 on May 09, 2014, 11:35:08 AM
However, it's also that a lot of the more passable trans women are uncomfortable posting pictures of themselves online. We are much more likely to get our pics stolen and used in inappropriate ways, and we are more likely to be careful about maintaining our stealth due to the higher physical and social risks. Which means a lot of the pics that you get to see are people who are quite early in transition, before they become invisible and no longer want their pictures on the internet.

So ya, you'll never see a pic of me here or of any of my IRL trans female friends because the risk is just too high.

So much this! like I have yet to post any pics here and don't think I ever will.

yeah it is easier for ftms than mtf physically but emotionally were the same, T is pretty powerful and i feel like society is more laxed on ftms, I mean i never fear for my life and i feel like even when I don't pass, no one is tryin to beat me up for dressing like a guy or giving me odd looks, i wish our bottom surgery was as good as mtfs though, i'm still debating on even getting it, although can't wait to get the boobs removed

Quote from: Rainbow Brite on May 09, 2014, 01:27:25 PM
Part of what helps guys become invisible is that the visual expectations that seem to go hand in hand with being a woman just isn't there. Guys can look like crap and it's passed of as an off day but for a woman it might seem like a bad day or she let herself go. And physically, yes, I think their transformation is awesome! I've watch Birkin transition (we video chat every day) and watching videos of him pre-transition is so weird for me because he looks so very masculine now.

Yeah, but like LittleEmily24 said, I still have the challenge where I see nothing but a girl in the mirror. I also hear a woman when I speak. I am baffled that I am seen as male and sometimes (less so lately though) it causes me a great deal of anxiety because I'm just waiting for them to be like "oh, that's actually a girl."

I think trans women do get the short end of the stick when it comes to society. Masculinity is valued, so a trans man, even if he's not seen as a "real man" could still be seen as "upgrading" his status as long as he fits the male role.

I've seen a lot of very passable trans women, and they're fortunate because I think everyone expects trans women to look like a man in a dress. So once you do get to the point of passing flawlessly, people just don't even question it anymore.

Funny thing re: sneaking into the "guy's forum". Well most women are nice and respectful, of course, and often say valuable things, but why do gals go and say stuff like "EW stand to pee why would you want to do THAT?" and so forth. Not saying this is the OP, of course.

--Jay

Quote from: birkin on May 09, 2014, 05:41:38 PM
I've seen a lot of very passable trans women, and they're fortunate because I think everyone expects trans women to look like a man in a dress. So once you do get to the point of passing flawlessly, people just don't even question it anymore.

This could be true, hmm.

Quote from: Ryan55 on May 09, 2014, 05:33:37 PM
yeah it is easier for ftms than mtf physically but emotionally were the same, T is pretty powerful and i feel like society is more laxed on ftms, I mean i never fear for my life and i feel like even when I don't pass, no one is tryin to beat me up for dressing like a guy or giving me odd looks, i wish our bottom surgery was as good as mtfs though, i'm still debating on even getting it, although can't wait to get the boobs removed

This is another area where ftms have an advantage.  If you don't pass they just see you as a masculine woman and don't think twice about it, but if they think they see a man acting feminine, it's time to freak out.  I'm sure that let you all be less nervous about it, which in turn always helps with passing in the first place.

And I don't want to act like going one direction is harder than the other, but they are a little different, advantages and disadvantages of both I am sure, and we all share that it is so hard and can be so terrible, but also that it is the most rewarding thing you will do in your life if it is right for you.

Quote from: Jen on May 10, 2014, 01:56:15 PM

And I don't want to act like going one direction is harder than the other,

Well, the family stuff and coming out and all that is the same. But from a physical and societal point of view, I think it is more difficult for trans women as a group (which of course doesn't mean that an individual trans man doesn't have it a lot harder than another individual trans woman). The stigma is much greater as is the risk of violence (which again doesn't mean there aren't trans men facing violence).

In general, people just don't care as much about the existence of trans men. Which I think is rooted in gender inequality itself. If the genders were seen as equal, why would this be such a controversy? Because they're not. So women of both groups (cis and trans) are stigmatized and sexualized. While the men of both groups pretty much go unnoticed. Nobody cares.

And then of course the hormones themselves have their own inequality thing going on. lol  I don't need estrogen blockers because T pretty much obliterates E, rendering it useless. Physically, unless a trans guy is really dysphoric genital wise, we've got it easier. Except in the genital surgery department. While the women are left with a bunch of stuff that's not an easy fix - voice, hair, etc.