I think there may be a lot of truth to that.  I just don't want to be invalidating, also, I don't have any experience with what it's like for trans guys.   I do know they get the short end on the subj of socialization when they are impressionable and young, with regard to how they are taught to value themselves.

I don't like to compare apples and oranges, and that's pretty much what we are doing here. But I tend to agree that, generally speaking, trans men who aren't fussing about genitals mostly have an easier time than trans women. Unfortunately, I happen to be one of those genital-obsessed guys, and I so wish I could be like some of my friends who really don't care what they have in their pants.

However, the social aspects should not be underemphasized. For example, I have met countless trans men (both here and IRL) who desperately need assertiveness training because they let everyone walk all over them. I have taken a few years to get situated in my new life, but I do not have this problem too much. I tend to be firm, forceful, and assertive as needed unless I'm really really tired and just not on my game. Sometimes I even surprise myself. But I've been lucky.

There are other factors as well.

But it's fine to envy aspects of each other's transition arc. A woman envies that I am very masculine-looking and -sounding; I envy her bottom surgery prospects. We will probably always find that in some ways, the grass is greener.

Quote from: Arch on May 10, 2014, 05:47:27 PM
However, the social aspects should not be underemphasized. For example, I have met countless trans men (both here and IRL) who desperately need assertiveness training because they let everyone walk all over them. I have taken a few years to get situated in my new life, but I do not have this problem too much. I tend to be firm, forceful, and assertive as needed unless I'm really really tired and just not on my game. Sometimes I even surprise myself. But I've been lucky.

Yeah, I think the social stuff is under-emphasized. I think generally speaking, that female born persons receive an upbringing inferior to that of male persons. Just by virtue of being assigned the female marker. The 'other' marker. Which of course isn't to say the male assigned persons have it all good. But all things equal, to be assigned female is to be assigned a lower status everywhere in the world and throughout all of remembered history. That takes a toll.

Does anyone seriously doubt this? How can it not be? Can anyone seriously name a culture where this isn't or hasn't been the case? So, how can it be doubted that assigned females receive an 'othering' upbringing?

Dysphoria is the same for both of us...

But indeed...ftm always turn out a lot more passable compared to mtf...
of course there are exceptions...

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 07:14:08 PM
Yeah, I think the social stuff is under-emphasized. I think generally speaking, that female born persons receive an upbringing inferior to that of male persons. Just by virtue of being assigned the female marker. The 'other' marker. Which of course isn't to say the male assigned persons have it all good. But all things equal, to be assigned female is to be assigned a lower status everywhere in the world and throughout all of remembered history. That takes a toll.

Does anyone seriously doubt this? How can it not be? Can anyone seriously name a culture where this isn't or hasn't been the case? So, how can it be doubted that assigned females receive an 'othering' upbringing?

I'd give my soul to have been let to express myself for who I was from the beginning no matter if society labeled  me subhuman.  I'd live in the desert and eat locust and wild honey and wear a sack cloth and sleep in the cold and rain to have been given the opportunity to be what my parents and everyone I grew up with knew who I was. I understand what you mean because of how I've lived my life and the things I've done . but for that chance to be me I'd live as  a prostitute and a homeless person for that opportunity to be what I've so desired. It's just my opinion of what my soul craves. Believe me I understand what your saying because I was forced into that role that is favored over the other , all it brought me was pain and loneness. God how I would of loved to carry that burden of being the subspecies.

Quote from: Arch on May 10, 2014, 05:47:27 PM
I don't like to compare apples and oranges, and that's pretty much what we are doing here. But I tend to agree that, generally speaking, trans men who aren't fussing about genitals mostly have an easier time than trans women. Unfortunately, I happen to be one of those genital-obsessed guys, and I so wish I could be like some of my friends who really don't care what they have in their pants.

However, the social aspects should not be underemphasized. For example, I have met countless trans men (both here and IRL) who desperately need assertiveness training because they let everyone walk all over them. I have taken a few years to get situated in my new life, but I do not have this problem too much. I tend to be firm, forceful, and assertive as needed unless I'm really really tired and just not on my game. Sometimes I even surprise myself. But I've been lucky.

There are other factors as well.

But it's fine to envy aspects of each other's transition arc. A woman envies that I am very masculine-looking and -sounding; I envy her bottom surgery prospects. We will probably always find that in some ways, the grass is greener.

Very true.

Quote from: stephaniec on May 10, 2014, 07:43:06 PM

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 07:14:08 PM
Yeah, I think the social stuff is under-emphasized. I think generally speaking, that female born persons receive an upbringing inferior to that of male persons. Just by virtue of being assigned the female marker. The 'other' marker. Which of course isn't to say the male assigned persons have it all good. But all things equal, to be assigned female is to be assigned a lower status everywhere in the world and throughout all of remembered history. That takes a toll.

Does anyone seriously doubt this? How can it not be? Can anyone seriously name a culture where this isn't or hasn't been the case? So, how can it be doubted that assigned females receive an 'othering' upbringing?

I'd give my soul to have been let to express myself for who I was from the beginning no matter if society labeled  me subhuman.  I'd live in the desert and eat locust and wild honey and wear a sack cloth and sleep in the cold and rain to have been given the opportunity to be what my parents and everyone I grew up with knew who I was. I understand what you mean because of how I've lived my life and the things I've done . but for that chance to be me I'd live as  a prostitute and a homeless person for that opportunity to be what I've so desired. It's just my opinion of what my soul craves. Believe me I understand what your saying because I was forced into that role that is favored over the other , all it brought me was pain and loneness. God how I would of loved to carry that burden of being the subspecies.

Oh wow hon.

For some reason your post reminded me of Mary Magdalena and some of these biblical women. And I think maybe there is a beauty in being female that trans women can appreciate. That assigned women can't appreciate as much because it's all they've ever known. And because being female can feel like a curse. A painful thing...

And yet here trans women are - without all the perks of womanhood - pregnancy etc. And some even beyond the perks afforded young women. And yet they still fight for their womanhood! Well if a person's willing to give up the perks of manhood without any of the perks of womanhood (having babies, beauty, youth, etc), I reckon they're damn serious about their gender. lol

Quote from: stephaniec on May 10, 2014, 07:43:06 PM
I'd give my soul to have been let to express myself for who I was from the beginning no matter if society labeled  me subhuman.  I'd live in the desert and eat locust and wild honey and wear a sack cloth and sleep in the cold and rain to have been given the opportunity to be what my parents and everyone I grew up with knew who I was. I understand what you mean because of how I've lived my life and the things I've done . but for that chance to be me I'd live as  a prostitute and a homeless person for that opportunity to be what I've so desired. It's just my opinion of what my soul craves. Believe me I understand what your saying because I was forced into that role that is favored over the other , all it brought me was pain and loneness. God how I would of loved to carry that burden of being the subspecies.

It is strange isn't it, to long to be something society deems lesser?  I think that of itself is evidence that there is no logic involved with what makes us male or female.  It's intrinsic and primal and there is no arguing your way out of it, or ever changing it.  It just is who you are.  You either deal with it or let it break you into bits.

Quote from: Jen on May 10, 2014, 08:18:39 PM
It is strange isn't it, to long to be something society deems lesser?  I think that of itself is evidence that there is no logic involved with what makes us male or female.  It's intrinsic and primal and there is no arguing your way out of it, or ever changing it.  It just is who you are.  You either deal with it or let it break you into bits.

yea, I've told my therapist many time how logic makes no sense with this issue.

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 08:17:18 PM
I'd give my soul to have been let to express myself for who I was from the beginning no matter if society labeled  me subhuman.  I'd live in the desert and eat locust and wild honey and wear a sack cloth and sleep in the cold and rain to have been given the opportunity to be what my parents and everyone I grew up with knew who I was. I understand what you mean because of how I've lived my life and the things I've done . but for that chance to be me I'd live as  a prostitute and a homeless person for that opportunity to be what I've so desired. It's just my opinion of what my soul craves. Believe me I understand what your saying because I was forced into that role that is favored over the other , all it brought me was pain and loneness. God how I would of loved to carry that burden of being the subspecies.


Oh wow hon.

For some reason your post reminded me of Mary Magdalena and some of these biblical women. And I think maybe there is a beauty in being female that trans women can appreciate. That assigned women can't appreciate as much because it's all they've ever known. And because being female can feel like a curse. A painful thing...

And yet here trans women are - without all the perks of womanhood - pregnancy etc. And some even beyond the perks afforded young women. And yet they still fight for their womanhood! Well if a person's willing to give up the perks of manhood without any of the perks of womanhood (having babies, beauty, youth, etc), I reckon they're damn serious about their gender. lol

yea, the apostle Mary Magdalena is is probably my most beloved heros

Quote from: Katrina on May 09, 2014, 11:17:01 AM
And started looking through a ton of the before and after pics and could hardly believe my jealously. They seem to do SO well on hormones compared to us.  I mean I know the whole "You look great!" sentiment we tell each other in our thread, but the ftm seem to by and large do significantly better job with passing off as their chosen gender than we do.  It always sucks being transgendered as opposed to simply being born in the gender we identify with to begin with. But it seems like even in these matters we drew the short stick.

from what I've noticed in general, MTF's SRS & BAS procedures are lots easier than FTM's phallo & breast reduction surgeries ... FTM's voice is a lot easier to be masculine compared to MTF who wants to have feminine voice (unless MTF has been training since they're kids/teens) ... FTM's face seems to get more masculine easier than MTF's feminine face ..

so if you think about the whole process , we are pretty equal lol

Quote from: Arch on May 10, 2014, 05:47:27 PM
However, the social aspects should not be underemphasized. For example, I have met countless trans men (both here and IRL) who desperately need assertiveness training because they let everyone walk all over them. I have taken a few years to get situated in my new life, but I do not have this problem too much. I tend to be firm, forceful, and assertive as needed unless I'm really really tired and just not on my game. Sometimes I even surprise myself. But I've been lucky.

While I do agree women are not taught to be firm forceful or assertive as FA was saying. But I think confidence has more to do with those character traits than anything and not all men possess them. I also think being trans has a lot to do with this to I know my confidence in myself was very low growing up so I wasn't assertive at all. Positive character traits come from believing in yourself and that is something a lot of us struggle with.       

Quote from: Heather on May 10, 2014, 08:51:45 PM

Quote from: Arch on May 10, 2014, 05:47:27 PM
However, the social aspects should not be underemphasized. For example, I have met countless trans men (both here and IRL) who desperately need assertiveness training because they let everyone walk all over them. I have taken a few years to get situated in my new life, but I do not have this problem too much. I tend to be firm, forceful, and assertive as needed unless I'm really really tired and just not on my game. Sometimes I even surprise myself. But I've been lucky.

While I do agree women are not taught to be firm forceful or assertive as FA was saying. But I think confidence has more to do with those character traits than anything and not all men possess them. I also think being trans has a lot to do with this to I know my confidence in myself was very low growing up so I wasn't assertive at all. Positive character traits come from believing in yourself and that is something a lot of us struggle with.       

I agree. I mean, obviously all boys are not brought up self-confident. I just think as a general rule, girls are taught to be less. Less, well everything. Sort of prepped for a backseat role. Whereas a boy might have really a sucky childhood, but he doesn't grow up in a world where everywhere he looks, people with his body type are depicted as less. I mean, if an alien came here and just looked at our billboards, our media, listened to our youth, had a beer in our bars among middle aged men, etc - he would come away with the idea that women of our species are 'sex' and little else.

Maybe this is petty, I don't know. I have been a short woman. I get a lot of jokes but I'm also put in the "cute" category. I am going to be a *very* short guy. And being a really short guy sucks. Instead of cute I will be more of a joke. If I'm assertive I may be compared to napoleon. heh. Of course there are some really tall mtf women and that has it's issues.   think our western society does make it easier on ftms but I also think generalizations miss things. I also think pictures don't really tell us much. I may pass here in the occasional picture but in real life I just don't.... yet.

Quote from: aleon515 on May 09, 2014, 01:42:14 PM
I think guys have it easier. It has to do with the power of T, as someone mentioned. It doesn't even matter how old you are, because T works it's "magic" regardless of your age. OTOH, for the gals they are going against all the changes that are produced by T. Estrogen is more of a subtle hormone, I guess I'd say. Another thing, due to male privilege, most (but not all) FTMs don't have to convince a psychologist we're not crazy. And IME there is as much social prejudice. Men do not feel that FTMs go into their bathrooms to rape them. For real, I have been congratulated for being male, which I think is strange but oh well. The arrest rate for FTMs is more like the average for cis people, and there is no penalty (except in some areas) of walking while trans male.

When you get to GCS/ SRS the male surgeries are multiple step and harder and there are less surgeons skills at them. I also believe we lack the visibility which has it's negatives. I did not know FTMs even existed, or if they did they were statistically very very rare. I know now that isn't true.

I think FTMs have our own struggles, and sometimes the rate of change creates its own issues as well as for those who don't seem to change as much. Obviously there are the issues that all trans people face--family, work, etc.


--Jay

I never really thought about the male privilege, even after experiencing losing it first hand. Great Post.

I went to a technical secondary school, learnt welding, engineering, automotive and wood work (great skills to have) but I recently went to get a tyre replaced on my car and they treated me horribly to the point they were trying to rip me off and make my car unsafe. I don't know if I did the right thing, but I told them what they were wanting to do was Illegal and that I would have to go somewhere else. It really frustrated me.

Quote from: LittleEmily24 on May 09, 2014, 12:32:26 PM
This made me giggle because ironically i was just talking to my wife and my mom about the very fact that being male results in a world of expectations from society. Most of the time Cismen act as though being a man takes some sort of initiation rite of passage... I'm still early as hell in my transition and still look quite male, yet women everwhere I go treat me as another woman.

That is probably an echo of our earlier hominid and primate ancestors where males fought and jostled for dominance and mating rights.

One of the reasons why transitioning appeals to me is that I am tired of that crap (was never good at it anyway). Women have their own politics, but its nothing next the BS male institutions throw up.

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 09:03:31 PM
While I do agree women are not taught to be firm forceful or assertive as FA was saying.

Assertiveness == ->-bleeped-<-.  There are enough ->-bleeped-<-s on this planet already. It could use a whole lot more collaborative and cooperative.

Quote
if an alien came here and just looked at our billboards, our media, listened to our youth, had a beer in our bars among middle aged men, etc - he would come away with the idea that women of our species are 'sex' and little else.

For the longest time in most cultures, he would be correct  Women were/are expected to be home makers and child bearers and little else.  It is only in the past couple of centuries that has changed, mostly because technology has permitted that division of labor to no longer be a necessity of survival.  But we still carry the physiological and sociological baggage around with us.

Well, not really sure... I think FTM's have the transition easier from a physical aspect, but I am sure the emotional level is the same for both. Given women obsess more on detail of their bodies and looks more than men I think that part is harder for an MTF. Plus as women, we are expected to be prim and proper, where as with men they are not as much. This is true for the cis population as well. So that said I think it is harder for MTF's to transition.   

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 09:03:31 PM
I agree. I mean, obviously all boys are not brought up self-confident. I just think as a general rule, girls are taught to be less. Less, well everything. Sort of prepped for a backseat role. Whereas a boy might have really a sucky childhood, but he doesn't grow up in a world where everywhere he looks, people with his body type are depicted as less. I mean, if an alien came here and just looked at our billboards, our media, listened to our youth, had a beer in our bars among middle aged men, etc - he would come away with the idea that women of our species are 'sex' and little else.

You will get no argument from me FA women do get the short end of the stick in this world. But I think being trans does make it harder on us being raised in the wrong gender. I know growing up a girl has to be ten times worse for an ftm just like growing up a boy was a absolutely horrible experience for me. I could go on a whole list of things I hated about being raised a male and maybe I will sometime. Not to say females have it better it was just my perspective of feeling trapped in the wrong gender.

I think of my past as a male and just want to throw up, absolutely no sense of redeemable  value.