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So I sneaked into the FtM forum...

Started by Katrina, May 09, 2014, 11:17:01 AM

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Arch

Quote from: JamesG on May 10, 2014, 09:18:29 PM
Assertiveness == ->-bleeped-<-.  There are enough ->-bleeped-<-s on this planet already. It could use a whole lot more collaborative and cooperative.

What makes you think that the two are mutually exclusive? I feel that both are needed, and I can assure you that I play nicely with others without being a doormat.

When I had repairs done on my car recently, the mechanics left things a mess in the cab. I asserted myself and had them clean it up because it's their job to clean it up. I was very pleasant about it, but I wasn't about to let it slide, and they were properly apologetic. Unless you count my pleasant demeanor, there was no room here for "cooperation"; the mistake was theirs.

Often, assertiveness and collaboration go hand in hand. A few days later, I was working with students in office hours, but I was firm about where I drew the line: At a certain point, "help" actually hinders a student's growth and improvement. I helped them but didn't simply give them answers, even when they thought I should. Still later, I was editing a book and working with one of the authors; she asked for me to do things that she didn't have time for, and I obliged. In those instances, I acted as a collaborator. But when I ran across an offensive transphobic passage in one of the readings, I asserted in no uncertain terms that it WAS offensive and needed rephrasing.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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Joanna Dark

Quote from: Jen on May 10, 2014, 08:18:39 PM
It is strange isn't it, to long to be something society deems lesser?  I think that of itself is evidence that there is no logic involved with what makes us male or female.  It's intrinsic and primal and there is no arguing your way out of it, or ever changing it.  It just is who you are.  You either deal with it or let it break you into bits.

Or don't deal with it...let it break you into bits and destroy everything by the time you're 30...and then pick up the pieces of your broken ego and metamorphize into a beautiful buttefly.

Also, what Sarah7 said....I used to post pics a lot begging for validation (I've been on HRT for like 15 months now), but now, uh, I'm a lot more wary cause I'm a totally passable.
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BunnyBee

Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 10, 2014, 10:13:12 PM
Or don't deal with it...let it break you into bits and destroy everything by the time you're 30...and then pick up the pieces of your broken ego and metamorphize into a beautiful buttefly. 

Hey that sounds like me! Except for the butterfly bit..
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Felix

You see my current profile picture? I've been on hormones for years and I look pretty much the same, and I get harassed so often by police and other people who believe I am my teenaged daughter's friend or sibling that I rarely take her anywhere anymore if I don't have to. Some FtM guys have amazing results and I'm jealous too, but it's easy to home in on certain effects or procedures and oversimplify the overall process. I wish I could have had the right hormones as a kid so I could look my age but I'm not at all envious of the powerlessness and parental rejection that some youth suffer. Likewise, I see beautiful transwomen sometimes and wish I had tools like makeup or even the social visibility that I know is often painful, but I'd rather not daydream because that can lead to hopelessness.

We have to be really careful about making comparisons. It's too easy to get cut into pieces by the unfairness. In the bigger picture I think no matter how (or how often) we discuss the differences it mostly tends to balance out.
everybody's house is haunted
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Bombadil

Quote from: JamesG on May 10, 2014, 09:18:29 PM
Assertiveness == ->-bleeped-<-.  There are enough ->-bleeped-<-s on this planet already. It could use a whole lot more collaborative and cooperative.


I struggle with statements like this. Perhaps you are defining assertive in a different way then I did. I grew up in an abusive home. I had a confident exterior but in a lot of ways I was a doormat... now that I think about it, doormat is probably a bad term. It's a blaming term. But back to what I was saying... If I had never learned to be assertive I wouldn't be on the road to transition. The ability to tell the doctor what I want has changed my life. The ability to say "no" firmly has saved my life. How can you collaborate and cooperate if you don't even have a voice?






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Serenation

Quote from: Joanna Dark on May 10, 2014, 10:13:12 PM
Or don't deal with it...let it break you into bits and destroy everything by the time you're 30...and then pick up the pieces of your broken ego and metamorphize into a beautiful buttefly.

Also, what Sarah7 said....I used to post pics a lot begging for validation (I've been on HRT for like 15 months now), but now, uh, I'm a lot more wary cause I'm a totally passable.


It's something I struggle with internally, a lot of girls do just successfully go on with their lives in stealth and leave the whole trans part behind them. So how does one live stealth and still be supportive of the community. Anyway I envy those that are trans and proud and have no issue with being out and public about it. Our younger and less experienced need role models. Sadly it's not really possible for those in stealth to post pics on a very public forum like this. (and in cases like yours where you know exactly where you stand as far passability goes there doesn't seem much point)
I will touch a 100 flowers and not pick one.
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Miss_Bungle1991

Quote from: JamesG on May 10, 2014, 09:18:29 PM
Assertiveness == ->-bleeped-<-.

That is a common misconception. You can be assertive without being a jerk about it. I think the real problem is that there are so many people that are far too stubborn to let someone offer an opinion or correct them when they are truly wrong about something. Their pride gets wounded as a result and they say: "Well! You're just a jerk/->-bleeped-<-/bitch", etc.

I'm as stubborn as they come but I am also willing to admit when I am wrong. Life works much more smoothly if you can let go of your foolish pride and admit to your faults when it it truly IS your fault.
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noeleena

Hi.

For myself theres no difference between male or female and as for T or E you may not know much about us and how our hormones work both together male T and Female E.

just a small matter of cause is they are not the only ones in our bodys that work in our favour   as i know for some of us and i know myself of changes that have taken place with out added  synthic meds or drugs.

Being intersexed can be some thing that is good when you understand us and how our bodys come together and work,

And just as a side line T for myself has been a big help in many ways  though i know many Trans people dont get that and they really dont wont T to be part  of themselfs,

So the bottom line for myself is im a intersexed female with some masculine features,  no big deal and its about accepting who you are , because others do of myself, .So we can be different and accepted as normal. .......

...noeleena...
Hi. from New Zealand, Im a woman of difference & intersex who is living life to the full.   we have 3 grown up kids and 11 grand kid's 6 boy's & 5 girl's,
Jos and i are still friends and  is very happy with her new life with someone.
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aleon515

Quote from: Felix on May 10, 2014, 10:40:19 PM
You see my current profile picture? I've been on hormones for years and I look pretty much the same, and I get harassed so often by police and other people who believe I am my teenaged daughter's friend or sibling that I rarely take her anywhere anymore if I don't have to.


Felix, your experience actually points out a big issue. One of the big problems that trans people have is if they don't "pass" because passing itself has privilege. Some women do indeed "pass" and really well, but other never really will. Very few trans guys have this issue, but it is not unheard of. If you "pass", you basically have one less issue (or perhaps several).

Although in my mind  Felix you look male, the problem is you don't look male at your chronological age (I think this might be true for many trans guys, but it kind of makes a difference how old you are to start). I might not look my chronological age, but at my ancient age it doesn't matter and is more of an advantage. Getting read as "butch lesbian" is an issue in some areas that are very LGBT friendly. They are used to seeing a lot of butch lesbians, who dress male. So of course people are being polite, but not seeing us as male, which can be frustrating.

I feel there are social hurdles that a lot of people talked about, esp for those of us who do not buy into the gender stereotypes. I feel there are expectations there re: male behavior, that I even see spouted on susans. I don't care to be, never will be some tough unfeeling male. Maybe why I seem to be read as gay (of course I may be gay but what they are reading is gender presentation or something). I feel there are disadvantages to being raised as a girl, but there were advantages too.

I don't think assertive =a**hole. I think if you are nasty about it then it's aggression. You don't have to be physical to be aggressive. And in fact, I know quite a few women who are aggressive, as well.


--Jay
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Ms Grace

Quote from: Felix on May 10, 2014, 10:40:19 PM
You see my current profile picture? I've been on hormones for years and I look pretty much the same, and I get harassed so often by police and other people who believe I am my teenaged daughter's friend or sibling that I rarely take her anywhere anymore if I don't have to. Some FtM guys have amazing results and I'm jealous too, but it's easy to home in on certain effects or procedures and oversimplify the overall process.

Felix, before I read this thread I'd seen another post by you and was thinking to myself "what a totally handsome guy he is" and was thinking that I'd really like to tell you that... but that it might seem a bit weird and stalkerish if I did...but, um, I guess I did just say it...so, um, yeah :icon_redface:  :)
Grace
----------------------------------------------
Transition 1.0 (Julie): HRT 1989-91
Self-denial: 1991-2013
Transition 2.0 (Grace): HRT June 24 2013
Full-time: March 24, 2014 :D
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Felix

At the risk of following digressions too much, I will say that my life is much better when I manage to behave in ways that feel overly aggressive but that others seem to respond to as normal. When I am more outgoing and confrontational I am more likely to get what I need and more likely to get along with random males in public.

I do have passing privilege and I hope I never take that for granted. If I didn't have a child I would probably just learn to see teenaged and college-aged kids as peers, and maybe would never even think of my apparent youth as a barrier. It might be that my difficulties are an unfortunate but rare coincidence.
everybody's house is haunted
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Felix

Quote from: Ms Grace on May 11, 2014, 03:09:45 AM
Felix, before I read this thread I'd seen another post by you and was thinking to myself "what a totally handsome guy he is" and was thinking that I'd really like to tell you that... but that it might seem a bit weird and stalkerish if I did...but, um, I guess I did just say it...so, um, yeah :icon_redface:  :)
That's really nice and I wish you and others could meet me alone once in awhile so I could be more than just somebody's dad. Having to voice all the details feels like such a letdown. :P
everybody's house is haunted
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Arch

Felix, you seem to still be living in the Bible Belt. What a rundown on your everyday experiences with bureaucracies.

The youthful appearance can be a real disadvantage. At my community college, I'm still read as a student sometimes. I have learned to open with a standard "I'm Professor Arch, and . . ." whenever I need to talk to a stranger in another department--or even in my own.

I guess this is rather the opposite of trans women who face being taken less and less seriously as they age.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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kira21 ♡♡♡

I think the reason why the changes are more successful for FTMs is because being a woman is the default state for the human body. This is seen in those XY people with testosterone insensitivity, whose testicles do not descend and appear phenotypically female. Genitalia and a little breast growth excepting, men and women share approximately the same bodies until late puberty where male changes cause a divergence from this. As a side note, this is a significant contributing factor to how MTFs may look younger than their age; they don't get the bone changes if they start hormone therapy later than this as the bone structures are set. They have the other changes and presentation of a male, but the bone and body structure of a younger male.

When one takes T as a person with female physiology, one instigates those changes. When one takes E and suppresses T one is trying to reverse them. Its clear to see that one is more successful than the other.  As the one major reversal in the ftm camp, take breast growth as an example; The E instigates the change and breast growth is relatively successful in MTFs. The reversal of this is less successful and though one might lose some fat, the  breast growth is largely irreversible without surgery. In MTFs, the changes that have been instigated by the T are facial bone structures including brow ridges, nose width, jaw etc. bone structures in the body making the body generally taller and wider with bigger hands and feet, increase in muscle mass, hair growth and thickening, thickening of the vocal chords, formation of the adams apple, male pattern hair loss etc. Some are partially reversible with hormones but most require other interventions.

As the male condition is a divergence from the natural female state, for MTFs there are fewer changes to instigate and more changes to reverse. As a FTM there are more to instigate and less to reverse.  This is why they have a harder time.

Adam (birkin)

Quote from: Felix on May 11, 2014, 03:14:57 AM
At the risk of following digressions too much, I will say that my life is much better when I manage to behave in ways that feel overly aggressive but that others seem to respond to as normal. When I am more outgoing and confrontational I am more likely to get what I need and more likely to get along with random males in public.

I do have passing privilege and I hope I never take that for granted. If I didn't have a child I would probably just learn to see teenaged and college-aged kids as peers, and maybe would never even think of my apparent youth as a barrier. It might be that my difficulties are an unfortunate but rare coincidence.

Having read this and your previous post, I can say that I deal with the same issue. I've only been on hormones for 2 years, so not as long as you, but I look way too young to be in university. First year, tops, so when people find out I'm working on a Master's, they start getting suspicious. Like one guy I ran into thought my brother was older, and when we told him I was actually 25 - he started really interrogating my physical appearance and asking me why I didn't have the same amount of beard shadow, etc.
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BunnyBee

I don't know if this will help you feel better about it, but I hope it does.  In my early 30s, in the last years I tried to be in the world as a guy, I looked 15 years younger than I actually was, meaning when I was 32 I looked about 18 years old, so whenever I told somebody my age it would be met with shock and then people would joke with me or say I carried my age well, and those sorts of things.  I always took it to be affirming and it always felt nice.

I know for you all it would carry some baggage due to your transition and that maybe you might feel like it's a sign you're not there yet, but it isn't a bad thing to look young, imo.  Most guys I don't think would take it that way.  And most of the women that would comment on my age were actually being flirtatious about it.  I never had the feeling anybody thought I was FTM, because that thought wasn't even in the same universe as my mind.
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Megumi

Quote from: birkin on May 11, 2014, 01:17:24 PM
Having read this and your previous post, I can say that I deal with the same issue. I've only been on hormones for 2 years, so not as long as you, but I look way too young to be in university. First year, tops, so when people find out I'm working on a Master's, they start getting suspicious. Like one guy I ran into thought my brother was older, and when we told him I was actually 25 - he started really interrogating my physical appearance and asking me why I didn't have the same amount of beard shadow, etc.
Up until I hit second puberty in my late 20's my sister, who is CIS was able to grow a thicker fuller beard than I ever could due to her having a hormonal imbalance. She had a beard shadow when I was still "baby faced" with my lack of ability to grow a beard. Interesting enough people gave me TONS of crap back then for not having a beard at work because I didn't fit into the typical macho, pump iron and grow a chuck Norris beard mold. Then I was able to grow some gruff and put on some muscle and after that I didn't get made fun of which is just ridiculous that most people think than man=beard. 

What intrigues me the most is now that I'm transitioning but not out at work I don't get crap from having a very feminine appearance, yet I still work at the same place as before. I've nearly fully lasered off my beard, I've been on HRT for 5 months and have very smooth skin & no acne, I have my eyebrows waxed in a very feminine way and am about to go full female eyebrow next time I get my hair cut, I wear ear ring studs and have lost a lot of weight. Most of all I have almost A cup breasts and still not one single person has given me any crap at all and I don't get it. My only guess is that people at work know but don't want to face the reality of me transitioning at work yet or that they are just waiting on me to say something when I'm ready.

At 30 years old I still get carded at bars and that's in male mode or what ever visage I can call male mode that I do haha. Secretly though, I relish it when someone says that there is no way that I'm 30 and then I show them my ID. Until I get my ID and gender marker changed I'll never step foot in a bar when I'm out and about.

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Suziack

Quote from: FA on May 10, 2014, 07:14:08 PM
...But all things equal, to be assigned female is to be assigned a lower status everywhere in the world and throughout all of remembered history. That takes a toll.

Does anyone seriously doubt this?...

Yes. Amazon Women on the Moon. If you don't believe me, look it up!
If you torture the truth long enough, it'll confess to anything.
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@Diana

Quote from: Suziack on May 11, 2014, 04:56:46 PM
Yes. Amazon Women on the Moon. If you don't believe me, look it up!

I am Amazon woman ! but on Earth  :police:
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aleon515

Quote from: Arch on May 11, 2014, 03:42:56 AM
Felix, you seem to still be living in the Bible Belt. What a rundown on your everyday experiences with bureaucracies.

The youthful appearance can be a real disadvantage. At my community college, I'm still read as a student sometimes. I have learned to open with a standard "I'm Professor Arch, and . . ." whenever I need to talk to a stranger in another department--or even in my own.

I guess this is rather the opposite of trans women who face being taken less and less seriously as they age.

Yes, it seems like a like many trans guys are seen as younger than our chronological age. It's an advantage at my age, I am old enough now that I am seen as a "gentlemen". Not sure I would personally use this term as I don't quite identify as a man, being a little less binary. It does, however, get me taken seriously when I pass. Only once was I ever made fun of and it seems that I might have been in a rather dodgy neighborhood, perhaps whoever it was didn't take me as masculine enough, but still saw me as male. Or perhaps saw me as gay.

--Jay
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