I'm not really talking about flirting although that can be part of this. This may be a jumble. I'm early in transition. I am just starting to think about how my interactions will change. And they will. Today I was joking with a friend who was female. I called her a name. As soon as it was out of my mouth I said, when I'm a guy I can't say that to you. She started to say disagree and then realized I was right. And really, I probably shouldn't have said it as a female, but it will be different as a guy.

And a bit ago I almost called someone here sweetie. And then I was like, is that sexist? I really wanted to just convey caring but would I say the same thing to a guy? Probably not. Some of you have probably read some of my other posts. For me this is a big, big deal because of what I grew up in. It was *not* a good scene. I know all about sexualizing and demeaning women. I don't ever want to be a part of that.

And maybe because the T is starting to hit, I've been thinking about the ladies a bit more. I sort of skipped out on flirting. But a part of me now thinks that flirting would be fun. But what makes flirting fun and what makes it creepy? If I tell a lady she looks good, does that mean I'm treating her like an object?

If I've ticked anyone off, I hope you can be gentle. This is raw stuff for me. I am not meaning to cause harm to anyone. And I'm not sure if anyone can answer this for me, but I had to get it out of my head.

honestly, you can tell a girl she's pretty and she might just say thank you and that's it. don't get mad if she doesn't reciprocate (some guys do..it's awkward...) but also, joking flirting is the easiest to do. i can't think of examples off the top of my head but i'm sure someone else could come in here and give you an example. one more thing though..friendzone isn't a real thing and don't girlfriend zone a girl, it's awkward. also a woman shouldn't have to say she has a boyfriend for you to back off. that just shows you have more respect for her boyfriend, a guy, then her for just saying no. got a little heavy there but some guys just..don't back off or respect a woman when she says no or doesn't show interest, they keep just pushing and pushing...

all in all, dating isn't hard, flirting isn't hard and it's easy to see when you've crossed that line. people will act weird once you've crossed that line most of the time..just don't over think it and be yourself. it comes easy once you just go with the flow but you will need to catch yourself with some things like calling girls certain names, etc. of course you will act different with a girl then you would with a guy (eg calling her sweetie) but sometimes those kinds of things DO make girls uncomfortable and you need to be aware of that because it could be cool when you presented as female but as male? probably not. and also, side note, you aren't entitled to anything even if she flirts back and you need to remember that too.

I do not have the social skills that invisiblemonsters seems to have, I'll just say that outright. I've had to figure things out more methodically.

I don't usually flirt with girls on purpose, but I have struggled with how to talk to them. There are certain words and turns of phrase that hold an entirely different charge when spoken by a male. I have been corrected occasionally for saying stuff that I am just not allowed to say anymore. It happened most for me when I was early in transition.

I think I tend to come across as nurturing and maybe a little bit swishy at times, which I'm sure gives me leeway. If I tell a woman she's pretty or has a nice outfit or whatever it seems to go over fine if they perceive me as either gay or very young. I tend to be made aware of having overstepped boundaries if they see me as a heterosexual or an age peer. Some of this is obviously inference and I can't really be sure of all the interpersonal stuff I'm navigating.

I do think this is a pretty normal and not well-mapped stage for most transpeople. I was not raised to ever see myself as threatening, and so I'm not always careful enough when I talk to women.

I don't have a lot of specific advice but I will say I feel like this usually works in our favor. Transmen seem less likely to be offensively coarse or domineering than cismen. Without planning to, I often steer mixed-gender public conversations away from rape jokes, overt sexual advances, etc and make allies of women who might not have noticed me otherwise. I don't know how I would proceed from there if I were interested in them, but ladies do sometimes make it clear they appreciate the politeness.

I don't want to start ranting about society but having been raised female is very good preparation for treating women with respect. Part of how I have learned to speak appropriately most of the time is just by imagining how I would react if the roles were reversed, and by remembering that my internal stuff has very little bearing on what I look like and how my actions come across.

Christopher,
Tone and delivery are just as important as the words. I'm sure there'll be some trial-and-error at first, but it shouldn't take too long to sort out. If you don't intend offense, then relax and you likely won't offend.

And, of course, keep in mind that some people will be offended no matter what you do, simply because they like to be unpleasant. If you meet any of those, don't take it as a reflection of you.

Good luck and happy flirting.

Teg

I wish I knew the answer too. I still like girls, before I transitioned I just would always get friend zoned for being nice and caring towards women, when my friends would treat them like dirt and they would love it, I just didnt get it.

Seen this article today and I'm still baffled that men say this stuff and actually pick up women.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/30/online-dating-pickup-lines_n_5207196.html?&ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000029

Well, a female colleague called me a "slut" the other day.

It was only in jest and mock-shock indignant (and I feel like I've gained a badge of honour)... but I can tell you a guy would never get away with saying that.

I'm shocked at that link 

I have trouble firlting or chatting up girls, cos they confuse me and not sure what they want or what they are after, I tried being nice but keep getting friended zoned. Why do they want to date someone who is nasty and then they moan how much of a jerk they are and men all the same??

I'm a real good flirter most of the time I do it uncountiously though I've gotten alot of girls to like me by accident but I had to friendzone them, because I wasn't interested in them it was an accident, I didn't realize how much of a charm I had

Quote from: christopher on May 10, 2014, 11:08:16 PM
but it will be different as a guy.

Will it?

Quote from: christopher on May 10, 2014, 11:08:16 PM
And a bit ago I almost called someone here sweetie.

Dr Who Gets called sweetie all the time by RIVER

Moded my post. I Mean aaahh My head, sweetie is still ok right? Makes me wonder how much privalige with woman i had coz gay vibes.

i can be pretty awkward talkin to girls, if they are my friends, i'm fine, but if a chick i dont know starts talkin to me, yeah things can get awkward lol guys no problem, im just relaxed, but chicks whole different story lol

Thanks. This helps. I'm heading off to work in a minute, so I will give a better reply later.

So "friendzone" just means a girl considers you a friend, not relationship potential?

One more question. Is it ok to flirt if you are not really interested in a relationship? I'm pretty sure it is but just want to make sure. I mean, I have never had any interest in flirting until now. And I'm still too screwed up (working on it in therapy) to consider a relationship.

And some of this isn't even about flirting, it's just about being friendly and respect with women in life. "Friendzone" sounds fine with me. I'd just like to be a guy women feel good around.

Quote from: christopher on May 11, 2014, 09:21:25 AM
Thanks. This helps. I'm heading off to work in a minute, so I will give a better reply later.

So "friendzone" just means a girl considers you a friend, not relationship potential?

One more question. Is it ok to flirt if you are not really interested in a relationship? I'm pretty sure it is but just want to make sure. I mean, I have never had any interest in flirting until now. And I'm still too screwed up (working on it in therapy) to consider a relationship.

And some of this isn't even about flirting, it's just about being friendly and respect with women in life. "Friendzone" sounds fine with me. I'd just like to be a guy women feel good around.

No friendzoned means you have sexual, romantic, or physical attraction to her but she doesn't feel the same in order to get friendzoned one of you has to like eachother or either you took to long and she lost interest in you or you could be to nice some girls just wanna bad guy but friendzoning is not a good feeling either

In my experience I never have flirted purposely with a girl I wasn't interested in unless your a fan of hurting feelings not the best thing to do especially if your pretty damn attractive and have game not the best route I stopped doing that because I flirted with some girls I didn't like and it was horrible never doing that again.

I've been pretty shy and awkward for much of my life, but I've learned a few things along the way.

Slow down and be present in the moment.
Don't start out feeling like you have to "flirt" -- you've just met someone, and people are interesting; so who is this person?
Ask questions, and learn to listen: focus on what the other person is saying, and not on what you want to say next.
Be genuinely interested, and follow up on their answers -- if you have trouble thinking of what to say, here's a trick for doing this: pick a topic from what someone says, and follow up on that.

You: "Are you from around here?"
They: "No, I moved here from Seattle because of work."

Right away, you have three topics to follow up on: moving, Seattle, and work, and you have a choice of where to go next:

The obvious one, "What do you do?" isn't necessarily the best, IMO, because it doesn't do anything to establish rapport. But if you ask "Oh, that's a long way to move -- was it difficult?" or "I was in Seattle a couple of years ago, and it rained all the time. Do you like the climate better here?" you're asking something that also speaks to how you feel about things, and that can lead to finding common ground with the other person.

If you're stuck, instead of just looking blank, say something like "Huh -- that's interesting," and look like you're thinking while you figure out what to say next.

And just in general, be able to laugh at yourself, and treat people with kindness, honesty, and respect.

Quote from: rexyrex on May 11, 2014, 05:10:33 AM
I'm shocked at that link 

I have trouble firlting or chatting up girls, cos they confuse me and not sure what they want or what they are after, I tried being nice but keep getting friended zoned. Why do they want to date someone who is nasty and then they moan how much of a jerk they are and men all the same??

I think the answer just came to me while reading your post. Fear of commitment. If you date someone that's a jerk you can leave at any time, because they are a jerk.

Personally I like nice guys. So some girls do.

Phrases like "I think of you as a friend" or "let's just be friends" is where the term "friendzone" comes from.
It's BS. A lot of self-proclaimed "nice guys" use the term in situations where they gave a woman something of value - be it time spent together, food, gifts, whatever - and think that means they're entitled to sex. Sometimes the term is used in frustration, because it sucks to have unrequited feelings for somebody, but that doesn't excuse the implications. Anybody genuinely expecting it to work like an exchange of goods/services needs to learn the difference between relationships and prostitution.

Not flirting-specific, but general conversation tip someone gave me: ask open-ended questions. If you ask the right questions, the other person will be the one talking. Example, if someone saw a movie, asking "was it any good?" is easily answered yes or no. Asking "What was it about?" or, "Who was in it?" invites them to talk about it, at which point you listen and pick up things you can comment on ("Oh, so-and-so, weren't they in [some other movie]?") or ask more about.

Well if I can say something, I find shy guys really cute. I find really confident guys cute. Hell I find all guys cute in their own unique ways. Calling me sweetie, hon, or any other term that is warm and open is OK. Call me babydoll after you get to know me and I melt. I don't find the word "Slut", the "W" word or the "C" very flattering and extremely insulting unless it is from another M2F or girlfriend. I do find it OK in the throws of passion except for the "C" word, but that is a different story for a different section. Down and dirty, Oh yeah Baby. I might have said too much there.

Just be guys, guys and be yourselves. Being respectful in the beginning with flirting and a little shyness I find is extrememly sexy. Way more sexy than be over confident and making assumptions that I will do something just because you are the bestlooking guy in the place. Even if it is true, just don't act that way. This is just me and other girls might be different, we all are. As a matter of fact the thing I find most attractive whether you look like Vin Diesel or Louie Anderson is a self confidence and shyness mixed together. Kind of makes me feel like I am worth it and you are too.

Also, I am a sucker for cheesy pickup lines. It means to me that you think that I am worth it to be nervous over which shows me more that you are attracted to me than just saying, "Oh, you are so beautiful" and so on.

Sorry to butt in guys on your section and hope this helps a little.

Quote from: christopher on May 11, 2014, 09:21:25 AM
Thanks. This helps. I'm heading off to work in a minute, so I will give a better reply later.

So "friendzone" just means a girl considers you a friend, not relationship potential?

One more question. Is it ok to flirt if you are not really interested in a relationship? I'm pretty sure it is but just want to make sure. I mean, I have never had any interest in flirting until now. And I'm still too screwed up (working on it in therapy) to consider a relationship.

And some of this isn't even about flirting, it's just about being friendly and respect with women in life. "Friendzone" sounds fine with me. I'd just like to be a guy women feel good around.

friend zone isn't a real thing. it's something guys made up because being nice to a woman didn't get them sex. they think they're entitled to it if they do nice things for a girl, or just be nice in general towards them. i didn't know treating a woman nicely meant she owed you anything but apparently others do and that's wrong.

you can flirt if you aren't in it for a relationship. hell, people flirt without even knowing they are!! some people just mistake social ques or how someone is acting as flirting too, so you'd need to be careful of that but that's a general rule for anyone, really. talking to girls can be tough but honestly, a lot of girls make it easy to talk to them because a majority of them tend to be out going. if you don't give off those creepy vibes, they might not mind engaging in just a friendly convo with you. the first step to it is just being nice and friendly, as you would with anyone else. from there, it progresses and you learn what's okay and not okay because everyone is different.

I like this comic about friendzoning.  Maybe it helps guys that maybe don't get it understand where we are coming from.

http://mamamantis.tumblr.com/post/37818539849/please-do-not-remove-artists-comments-or-repost

Quote from: invisiblemonsters on May 11, 2014, 12:38:27 PM
friend zone isn't a real thing. it's something guys made up because being nice to a woman didn't get them sex. they think they're entitled to it if they do nice things for a girl, or just be nice in general towards them. i didn't know treating a woman nicely meant she owed you anything but apparently others do and that's wrong.

you can flirt if you aren't in it for a relationship. hell, people flirt without even knowing they are!! some people just mistake social ques or how someone is acting as flirting too, so you'd need to be careful of that but that's a general rule for anyone, really. talking to girls can be tough but honestly, a lot of girls make it easy to talk to them because a majority of them tend to be out going. if you don't give off those creepy vibes, they might not mind engaging in just a friendly convo with you. the first step to it is just being nice and friendly, as you would with anyone else. from there, it progresses and you learn what's okay and not okay because everyone is different.

Friendzoning is definately a real thing and no some of us guys really don't expect anything back everyone just assumes we want to hit it and quit it, some girls don't know a good man when they see one.

Quote from: Brandon on May 11, 2014, 01:58:04 PM

Friendzoning is definately a real thing and no some of us guys really don't expect anything back everyone just assumes we want to hit it and quit it, some girls don't know a good man when they see one.

loooool when you're older, you'll realize friend zone isn't a real thing. you want to know why a girl decides to be your friend instead of romantic? even if you are nice, and they say they want a "nice guy" but don't go after you? it's because you..you know..act like a friend. a girl isn't gonna just jump your bones because you're nice to her. you actually have to show some interest. doing things FRIENDS do, isn't gonna give her a hint you're into her (like listening to her complain about other guys, etc. this is stuff FRIENDS do....not someone who is into her does only...) and even if you do act into her and you're nice and w/e else, she might just not be interested and you can't blame her for that. a woman has a right to say no and not be obligated to give you anything or be called names and w/e else just because you show interest in her.

oh and one more thing? saying "not all men are like that" just makes you a part of the problem. you should acknowledge the fact that girls deal with guys every day who hit on them or whatever else. they're gonna think a guy just wants sex but that doesn't mean she thinks all guys are like that but with what she deals with? she's gonna act the same to you as she does every other guy and it has nothing to do with you but her own safety probably. you honestly can't blame a woman for not being interested in you, saying how she's this and that just because she didn't accept your advances and w/e else. that just makes you a part of the problem, that makes you exactly like all the other guys if you get mad, or say these things because you're treating her like an object, just like they are. you aren't acknowledging that there's an issue, you're just becoming a part of it.

you should read the comic jen posted because it's pretty accurate.