Quote from: JulieBlair on May 11, 2014, 06:12:24 AM
What an interesting and well spoken thread.  As so often happens around here, you have opened up my thinking to possibilities that I have failed to consider, and will have to now explore.  What is my gender identity? Mostly but not all female.  How fluid is it?  Some.

I've identified myself as queer for a very long time.  HRT has transformed by body into something more feminine.  But I'm not really cis or trans anything.  For the last couple of years I've been on a journey with a defined beginning and middle, but without a definitive end.  Maybe there isn't one.  Maybe there doesn't need to be one.

So what the hell do I put on my new passport? 

Think I'll take a nap now,

Julie

Julie

Sleep well!  Like you I am on a journey and for the first time in my life I am not overly concerned where I am heading or the label that I will need to be categorised on a passport or elsewhere.  It feels .. exciting, empowering and liberating.

Safe travels

Aisla

Quote from: Aisla on May 11, 2014, 06:29:08 AM
Ms Grace

I would like you to put the case for changing the sub forum from androgyne to non-binary to Susan.  Like the others on this thread I think that the latter term is more inclusive and has greater currency, more relevance and better reflects the folk who contribute to this sub forum and the language as it is currently used in the tg community.  I don't think that the objection previously raised (6/7 years ago), when this was first considered, necessarily holds as I think that the term non binary is now a well accepted and commonly used term to capture those for whom the androgyne sub forum was originally set up.  It is not that the androgyne sub forum is irrelevant rather that the name could now be improved and made more relevant/inclusive/ and better reflect current community usage  (imho).

I trust that this request will be viewed as constructive and positive, rather than seen as causing unnecessary contention.

Aisla

Thanks Aisla. If others are in agreement I'll make the request - like I said, no promises, but it's worth asking if that's how people feel.

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on May 10, 2014, 02:53:40 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_towards_non-binary_gender_persons

The National Transgender Discrimination Survey (NTDS) in fact did not use Non-Binary, Genderqueer, Gender Variant, nor Androgyne, Androgynous nor the hundreds of self-defined identities, behavior, and expressions rather the Socialogical defined word Gender Noncomforming that they picked and applied to the myriad of self-defined gender identities, behavior, and expressions after the survey had been taken, results analyzed, and findings presented.

Quote from: Ms Grace on May 11, 2014, 08:12:38 AM
Thanks Aisla. If others are in agreement I'll make the request - like I said, no promises, but it's worth asking if that's how people feel.

I'm in support of this, having previously voiced my opinion on the matter. Also, I think non-binary is a more prevalent term than gender non-conforming among people who actually identify with these categories. I personally don't define myself based on the fact that I don't conform to standard definitions of gender. It's simply the case that I don't have a strict allegiance to either male or female.

Also, if we could retire the "it's just words" argument please I would really appreciate it.  Other people use this argument against us and it's as untenable in those cases as it is in this one. If this argument is valid, then we should be okay with people calling us by gendered pronouns we don't prefer, or refer to us as ->-bleeped-<-s, or use tr***y and s*****le, etc. I hope you see my point.

Thanks for your replies here, and via PM - I've put in a request using all your points and thoughts. Will let you know how that goes.

Ms Grace

Many thanks for this. Anticipating another counter argument I think that non binary is a subset of transgender rather than simply a synonym



Aisla

Quote from: Ms Grace on May 11, 2014, 04:03:28 AM
It's not about the point, but the way you take it up. The "detransition" sub forum, for example, was started through a request rather than demands and accusations of exclusion. Tell me what you'd like and I'll put it to the admins. Can't promise anything but it's worth a shot.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it's some Horrible Awful Thing that the name for this forum is currently what it is and that I Simply Demand that it Immediately be changed. I don't actually care about it THAT much. What got me riled up was the perception that we were literally not even allowed to discuss our own opinions on the matter, it could have been about any other topic and I still would have been as disappointed as I was to find that. For me it's the principle of things that get to me the worst; like, silly example, if I want to clean my room and then someone suddenly demands that I clean it, that removes my choice and automatically makes me want to purposefully not clean my room even if I originally wanted to. The end result in either case is whether or not my room gets clean, but that doesn't matter so much to me. If that makes sense? But anyway, in more relevant news.

Yes, I am completely for you bringing that matter to the admin. And I agree with mandonlym, we really do need to officially retire the "it's just words" argument. Study Bandura's social learning theory or Gerbner's cultivation theory only briefly and it becomes apparent that the way we shape culture (with words) shapes us right back. Words are a very important chunk of how we communicate and need to be treated with proper respect. (This is also in the same vein as the "it's just a joke" argument.)

If it is still an issue that it is perceived that the community does not have a popular preference and therefore the old name should be kept by default, we can always create a poll. And lastly, it is worth mentioning that the name change might actually be important and relevant not because of "correctness" but because, as multiple people in this thread have already said, the name deters people who otherwise should be in this section talking to like-minded individuals because many of us cannot relate to the term "Androgyne" (especially as it is defined officially by this community) and believe wrongly that this forum just doesn't have a place for us to convene, period.

To me, the critical element of this section of the forum is to be inclusive and to help people find their center(s), and to explore all areas that do not fall into the limitations of "binary", or fully female and fully male spirits.  Whatever is inclusive is helpful.  Subsets may also be helpful.  Exclusion, even if unintended, is unhelpful and unwise, unless another area of Susans is there for those feeling out of place.  They will naturally gravitate to that place anyway.

Subsets may help if the group conscience can come up with an inclusive title for this section of the forum, and if done, if subtabs could include something that is perhaps of a general nature, with the GQ, NB, Andro tabs for those wishing to either limit their discussions to like spirits or like minded and the specific issues native to their needs.

I am physically very female centered but my mind most assuredly is not.  It doesn't feel good when I feel stranded or alone.  I know I am not alone in this forum, that you are all here to help me.

Just thoughts.  No strong drive since the Androgyne label has probably been effective for years.

The Admins agreed to change the board name to Non-Binary...which they've now done.

Ms Grace

Big thanks to you and to the admins

Aisla

A change that appears small, yet is very significant in many ways.
As usual, I am in awe of all of you who made this happen, from the staff to most importantly, the members here.
A big thanks to Ms Grace, to be sure.
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on May 13, 2014, 08:32:41 AM
A change that appears small, yet is very significant in many ways.
As usual, I am in awe of all of you who made this happen, from the staff to most importantly, the members here.
A big thanks to Ms Grace, to be sure.
Ativan

Ativan

You certainly helped us coalesce around this issue.  Thank you.

I agree with you.  This is a significant development and It should be beneficial in many ways.  It is a very good thing.


Aisla

Yay!

Quote from: Ms Grace on May 13, 2014, 06:51:08 AM
The Admins agreed to change the board name to Non-Binary...which they've now done.

Thank you so much Ms. Grace, and thank you to any and all staff who may be reading this, it means a lot to us!

You're all welcome! 

Thank you for this gift to us dear, and for all who support this section of the forum.

Since I did it back almost 8 years ago. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,5730.0.html

Might as well reuse those same words changing and striking through the old words

Thank you for making a main Androgyne Non-Binary Category Talk Forum!

I just wanted to thank whoever everyone that helped, especially Ms Grace, that made the androgyne main category Non-Binary Talk section. Thank you!

Very cool! Thanks.

I want once again to thank everyone from the bottom of my heart for changing the androgyne title, which I do not identify with, to non binary, which I strongly identify with.

I went from feeling like the odd person out to finding a family.... it has made a huge difference

"Non-binary."  I can live with that.  It sure beats the hell out of "genderqueer." 
I always thought that "non-binary gender variant" was good, and "non-binary"
comes pretty close to it without being so long-winded.