Quote from: Kylie on May 11, 2014, 09:08:19 PM
...and I think you are entrenched in your point of view.
It's only fairly recently that I've even been exposed to an alternate POV. I was a self-described feminist for about 25 years. In college, I was one of the few male members of the Women's Student Union at a conservative Southern college when they were just starting out. I was arguably "entrenched" in my POV that sexism was almost exclusively an issue of female oppression caused almost exclusively by men. But I haven't just flipped my POV. I've simply come to realize that it goes both ways.
QuoteGross exaggeration, men and women have an almost equal unemployment rate, women had a lower unemployment rate for the previous 5 years. They both provide, the woman's contribution is just marginalized as you just did in this quote. As for dangerous jobs and feeling obligated to die? How does one debate this? You can't, so what is the point?
Okay, first off, I started out with very hard data that was immediately questioned and context was demanded. Then when I start to discuss context, you say essentially that feelz don't matter and aren't worthy of discussion. So you're dismissing hard data I provide and then following up by saying anything that's not based on hard data is not worthy of being discussed. Meanwhile, you started off your response by saying how abrasiveness is more tolerated in men than women. That is your opinion about how people feel on average. So you're allowed to discuss that but not me? I would posit that I'm not the one who is entrenched.
BTW, I am inclined to agree. I think men GENERALLY tend to interrupt women and not value their opinions as much. That is an ambiguous cultural phenomenon but we can still have a conversation about that.
QuoteWho knows if the average man feels this? You don't know this and you can't quanitfy it. It is a generalization that I suspect isn't true.
So have I convinced you that this is even on the table for discussion? I'm sincerely surprised that anyone is even disputing this. This is reflected in our laws and our media. Only men can be conscripted. Even in a volunteer force, men can be and are forced to be in active combat roles. Women can now choose it but men don't have that choice. This is very recent. And I presented the hard data right from the start to support that dangerous fields remain male-dominated. Do you dispute that our culture reflects a general attitude that such jobs are meant primarily for men?
And then look at our media. The leading man is a heroic figure who rescues the damsel in distress and is often then rewarded by "getting the girl". We're starting to see some variation, thank goodness. We're seeing women in heroic roles more often, but it's a relatively recent thing.
Quote...but I can point out that women are more likely to be assaulted by their intimate partner than a stranger, I think they are more likely to be killed by an intimate partner as well, but I am not 100% sure about that.
This is true in general. It's disingenuous to say that women are more likely to be killed by an intimate partner when it's well known that most murders are by someone known by the victim. Also, domestic violence is not gendered.
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report, "In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases. Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women, but not men." [Source: Whitaker, Haileyesus, Swahn and Saltzman, Differences in Frequency of Violence and Reported Injury Between Relationships With Reciprocal and Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence, American Journal of Public Health, May 2007, Vol 97, No. 5, pp. 941-947, http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/5/941]However, men are much less likely to report it, and when they do call the police to report a women aggressor, the police almost always arrest the man based on the perception that has been created that domestic violence is gendered (i.e. men do it and not women).
According to the National Family Violence Survey, female victims of DV are nine times more likely to call the police than male DV victims. These are the percentages of victims who called the police in response to the assault:
Women: 8.5%
Men: 0.9%QuoteAm I saying that the average male is a rapist, deadbeat dad or wife beater? No, but this notion of women as some protected, unharmable class is nonsense. (This quote is one example of the generalization, exaggeration and opinion as fact that I took issue with)
I never said such a ridiculous thing. We're obviously talking about the culture and for that, statistics and trends are relevant. Even if you include rape, men are far more often the victims of violent crimes than women. I don't actually discuss this that much so I don't have the stats at my fingertips but I will try to find some references for you. The data is readily available. I'm just already an hour deep writing this response right now.
QuoteDo you think a mugger or murderer who is thumbing his nose at statutory law will all of a sudden target a man because of some socially accepted law of chivalry not to harm women?
Sometimes. We're talking about trends and culture. All criminals are not the same.
QuoteHe is a violent criminal! He is targeting the easiest mark! I would argue that men put themselves in more dangerous situations, and that women are more cautious of their surroundings. That is my theory for the higher violence against men, not a fact, my theory.
Okay, since you've decided we're allowed to talk about our theories again, I'll try to convey to you why I think that's the case. I think your points are relevant. I also believe our culture makes violence against men less taboo, whether by other men or by women.
I have a little thought experiment for you. Start paying attention to violence in movies and the genders of the victims in particular. Switch the genders of everyone involved and see how it affects the way you feel about the violence. Most movies will have men as the fodder. Male characters who you don't know or care about will be picked off left and right in an action movie. When they want to make you hate a villain, they'll make him violent to women. Making him a rapist is the most effective way to say "this is the villain. Hate him!" and it works great. When a man is raped, it will frequently be in a comedic situation or because he's evil and he deserved it.
This clip has no nudity but is still fairly NSFW.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWlPkUFJNJ0?t=1sWatch some romantic comedies ("chick flicks"). Imagine how many times you saw a woman slap a man. How do you think most people reacted? Were they appalled at the domestic violence or did they think "that pig deserved it!" Every time you see that, switch the genders and see how it changes how you feel. Imagine three guys sitting around a table talking about how violence against a "slut" who cheated on them is not enough revenge.
http://youtu.be/iqvWgpqfeHY?t=1m29sAt some point, he ends up in traction, and it's hilarious, because he's a cheater!
Here's one guy's post in response to
The Other Woman.
QuoteFor my wifes birthday I took her to see a local theater performance of a musical called "Baltimore". It was set in the 1920's, cute period costumes, etc.
I really had no idea what the show story was, so I was kind of surprised to find out that it was about a married man who brutally murdered his lover when she decided to leave him. The story kind of degenerated from there. The man tried to pin the murder on his wife, who was portrayed as comically stupid, too dumb to even confess to the crime properly and it came out that he actually did it and was arrested (The wife's stupidity and misplaced unwavering loyalty are a running joke through the performance). Once he's in jail, he's locked up with 6 more men who killed women, who sang a a very amusing song where each detailed how they murdered their wives or girlfriends, and the trivial reasons they did it (one woman was killed for chewing gum). The audience had a good laugh along with this one.
So, the story progresses and follows the fellow through his trial, and eventual acquittal...what with there being few characters more sympathetic than an adulterous man who murders his lover, the audience cheered out loud when he was found "not guilty". The play wrapped up with the two primary woman killers laughing and dancing off into the sunset having become wealthy and famous from the crimes they got away with.
Now, as the lights came up, I should have been surprised at how grotesquely misogynistic the play was, and how disturbing it was to see the audience laughing and clapping for men who murdered women without provocation and were rewarded for it. I would have been, except there's no musical called "Baltimore". The show was "Chicago" and it was about women who murdered men, I simply did the old switcheroo on the sexes.
This is the longest running musical in Broadway history, and a highly successful motion picture...a story about women who murder their lovers, get away with it, and sing funny songs about how little provocation they had.
The Other Woman is just another in a long line of shows/movies/ads that would be utterly unacceptable to us if the sexes were reversed, but the overwhelming reaction to criticism is "oh lighten up".
QuoteThe stats in the diagram you posted have context to them as well, they are not clear cut proof of some female privilege in those areas.
You're right. Even when "hard data" is posted, it needs to be questioned. None of this clear cut. It's about culture and trends. I just want us to be able to have an honest conversation about sexism and I feel like a lot of people are looking at it with tunnel vision--seeing and acknowledging only the things that support a particular POV or agenda and ignoring everything else.
