I know there's at least one or two people here who can relate to this, especially after seeing conversation in the "you look... alright" thread.

But for everyone who was curious enough to click, do any of you who are genderfluid or genderqueer or non-binary or what-have-you ever have a hard time actually being happy with yourself no matter what route you try to take? I know a lot of genderfluid people who say "oh yeah I'm genderfluid so literally anything works haha!! It is impossible to misgender me and I am always happy with anything I do and any way I am perceived!!!" But I don't hear a lot of conversation from the other end, with those of us who just can't seem to be happy with ourselves and our perceptions of ourselves no matter what we do.

I know that feel...

I dont even know what I am and Im not even gonna bother writting it down now...
But Im currently not satisfied and I wonder if I ever will be...

lets say that for a gender neutral person things can get frustrating with the whole guys do this/girls do this stuff...
and we non binary people basically dont even exist...its male or female in society , we have to struggle in order to be heard...

*sigh*

Yes I know the feeling. Always looking for but failing to capture and express my elusive self.   No standard to apply, no  validation from others - just surprise, confusion and being misread.   

Aisla

I would not say that I am "unhappy" presenting as either male or female.  The latter takes rather a LOT of effort, so I do not do that as much.  Mostly I am percieved as male despite the fact that most of what I do socially fits more into the female side of things.  The few of my social contacts that know of my issues would prefer I present male - despite speaking with me often as one of the girls and from time to time slipping up and calling me one of the girls.

The issue is that if I try to fit into either category - or just sail down the middle as me - I do not feel "complete."  That may sound like a load of double talk, and it may well be; but it reflects my inner confusion.  The main focus of my therapy has moved from getting ready for transition to trying to figure out who it is that I am and what it is that would make me "happy."  And that might not be the right term even - what I really want to be able to do deep down inside is acept my self.


Erin

Quote from: ethereal-ineffability on May 12, 2014, 01:37:16 AM
But I don't hear a lot of conversation from the other end, with those of us who just can't seem to be happy with ourselves and our perceptions of ourselves no matter what we do.

That was me, two years ago. I liked being male but was being drawn to the female side. It wasn't until I asked myself two questions that I was able to let go. I asked how I would feel if I could never be male again. Answer was that I would feel uncomfortable and strange. Then I asked how I would feel if I could never be female again. Answer was that I'd feel like a piece of me had been cut off.

I knew then I was female at the core, and I decided to transition fully. I still "feel male" a lot of the time, but having the world see me as female really took away a lot of my unease.

Funny enough, I'm writing an essay on this very topic as we speak, and I'll quote a passage for you:

"It is least true that I am a man, but more true that I am a queer man. Truer yet that I am a woman and even truer that I am both or neither woman and man. And truest: I never really know."

There are times when it feels like the best of both worlds but also times when it feels like being in limbo. I hate to admit it, but having a partner who understands makes a big difference. We decided today that he'll call me partner because of my ambivalence towards girlfriend. And I hate to admit a second thing, but the fact that he's a het cis male also makes a difference, since he's approaching it from a point of investigation and support rather than us needing to deal with each other's stuff around it.

Happiness, self acceptance, understanding our true center or being able to recognize it as it move and adapts to the environment or the needs of others, but mostly gratitude for knowing who you are, who you help, what your purpose in life is as a non binary soul, and looking at the glass half full not half empty related to physical dysphoria, or actually a full glass and all if it filled with beauty and joy but a delicious mixed beverage, not one ingredient but many blended together for a wonderful treat, that is who you are, that will help you with this.

I focus on the beauty that is already there, not the aspects that the unhealthy side of dysphoria will attempt to distort, and finding beauty in those already there aspects and seeing the value in them as well creates a more healthy overall person.

I will return.  Limited forum access for a while, I was a train wreck in therapy but we know the triggers and the solutions.  Self deception sucks.

Acceptance is critical.  If boundaries in marriage exist on presentation, they may be a gift of God to be accepted and once accepted as that gift and as God given joy for both in compromise and the great blessing of a match of comfort zones, then there is freedom, for God is extremely powerful and He protects.  My physical dysphoria is finally stable in an acceptable place and my marriage is secure.

Discontent is not very healthy.   Acceptance and gracious celebration of who we are and will become is a better choice.  It is all in how we percieve our gift, who we can help with it, being honest with ourselves and sharing joy and hope with others.

Back to my sabatical.  Every presentation we have or center we have has beauty.  Cherish your beauty.

Love to all.

Quote from: Satinjoy on May 13, 2014, 06:33:34 AM
Acceptance and gracious celebration of who we are and will become is a better choice.  It is all in how we perceive our gift, who we can help with it, being honest with ourselves and sharing joy and hope with others.

It might sound a bit too brief, but the problem seems to boil down to a simple idea: people "need" to know your gender.  This desire it not (entirely) from within, but the fact it heavily impacts the way people treat others means they're thrown off when a non-binary identity basically tells them to throw the script out of the window.  As long as people see girls/women and boys/men and treat everyone accordingly (instead of as people), they (at best) will trip over themselves (understandably).

People 'have a need' to identify someones gender. This is something that is taught to us in a heavy handed way.
It has grown into the 'normal' idea of 'need' to.
Gender at best is something that should be secondary to who we are as people, not an identifier of who we are.
It precedes an assumption about any of us, before actually knowing us.
Even the simple are you a male or a female determines the answers before a question is asked.
There is too much importance applied to it, but that isn't to mean it isn't a useful thing to have.
But it should be low on the list of things that we are as people,
of lesser importance to a point that it doesn't interfere with anyone's equality.
Ativan

Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on May 13, 2014, 10:24:10 AM
People 'have a need' to identify someones gender. This is something that is taught to us in a heavy handed way.
It has grown into the 'normal' idea of 'need' to.
Gender at best is something that should be secondary to who we are as people, not an identifier of who we are.
It precedes an assumption about any of us, before actually knowing us.
Even the simple are you a male or a female determines the answers before a question is asked.
There is too much importance applied to it, but that isn't to mean it isn't a useful thing to have.
But it should be low on the list of things that we are as people,
of lesser importance to a point that it doesn't interfere with anyone's equality.
Ativan

+1 Yes absolutely!

I think by now my answer to this question is obvious.

It's ironic though...there are people, even on this forum, who know exactly what they want but can't have it for whatever reason. But then with me, in regards to gender presentation, at least, truthfully I can basically have, really, whatever I want...and yet I have zero clue what that is, haha.

And yeah I am always unsatisfied. I have some really surreal moments sometime where I sort of have to ground myself in my own reality...like the other night had a really weird one. I was looking in the mirror and I just saw like...this female face and boobs and cuts and scars and for a second I couldn't even...like it was strange that it was me, this hybridy femaleish body and face and just....

For a second I really wanted to be a guy again...just a normal guy...but I remember how painful that wax and it's just like...how long am I going to feel like a prisoner in my own skin? I don't even know who I am or who I wanna be. Not even a little. And yet I'm this person who...made these major alterations and you would *think* that kind of dedication would require some sort of...certainty of self, but no. Transition, detransition, retransition, whatever, it's all been the same. Just a floundering action in a series of floundering actions of an utterly lost human being.

So, yes. I would say I'm never satisfied.

Quote from: Abbyxo on May 13, 2014, 12:59:15 PM
I think by now my answer to this question is obvious.

It's ironic though...there are people, even on this forum, who know exactly what they want but can't have it for whatever reason. But then with me, in regards to gender presentation, at least, truthfully I can basically have, really, whatever I want...and yet I have zero clue what that is, haha.

And yeah I am always unsatisfied. I have some really surreal moments sometime where I sort of have to ground myself in my own reality...like the other night had a really weird one. I was looking in the mirror and I just saw like...this female face and boobs and cuts and scars and for a second I couldn't even...like it was strange that it was me, this hybridy femaleish body and face and just....

For a second I really wanted to be a guy again...just a normal guy...but I remember how painful that wax and it's just like...how long am I going to feel like a prisoner in my own skin? I don't even know who I am or who I wanna be. Not even a little. And yet I'm this person who...made these major alterations and you would *think* that kind of dedication would require some sort of...certainty of self, but no. Just a floundering action in a series of floundering actions of an utterly lost human being.

So, yes. I would say I'm never satisfied.

Love your honest introspection Abby, I do that at times but am less lost and more accepting as time rolls on.

You know I'm not totally sure where it comes from but I really ultimately love myself and who I am whatever that may be, so as much as I go through these crises of uncertainly about my gender, there's always at heart this knowledge that whoever I turn out to be is wonderful, and if other people can't see that then that's their problem. Now it's becoming increasingly clear that my pendulum is leaning less towards F and more towards non-binary / genderqueer so I'll end up being an MtFtX, which honestly is something I find exciting. At heart I really don't feel shame about any of this. It's who I am and whatever that is I'll make the best of.

A lot of times it's not even shame that's the problem, or how others see you necessarily, but it's more like what you can do to be friends with the person in the mirror? And the whole "inner beauty" stuff is a great idealistic concept but it never really holds up if you really, truly dislike your presentation in any context and on any given day...

And Abby actually brought up a great point which is part of the big problem here. For those of us who can never really be satisfied... what do we even do about transition? Transition and you're not happy, don't transition and you're not happy, it's all the same, but which is worse? Is one even worse than the other? It's just extremely confusing, I guess. And it's scary because you've only got one life to live, and your decisions could potentially change how you live it forever, and if you make the wrong one....

Does your presentation overlap with your perception of attractiveness or what it means to be an "ideal" version of whichever gender you feel like being? I became keenly aware that I am a much better looking mainstream woman than a man and I won't deny that this was a factor in my transition, given my inherent gender queerness. Now that I've had that experience of being attractive and such and desired in that way, it's not really something I seek out anymore and I feel like I'm freer to express whatever gender I feel like.

With the inner beauty stuff it's both true and not true... I don't think inner or outer beauty exclusively exists but they happen in tandem. I was brought up with a really strong notion of inner beauty so I think it allowed people to better understand why I'm attractive even when I wasn't mainstream attractive, and then when there was more of a match between inner and outer beauty it made me more desirable. Thing is though that beauty fades and it's ultimately the genuine connections you make that's important. Outer attractiveness helps in that you have more options, but a vast majority of people can find other people to love and be loved by.

Quote from: mandonlym on May 14, 2014, 12:49:19 AM
Thing is though that beauty fades and it's ultimately the genuine connections you make that's important. Outer attractiveness helps in that you have more options, but a vast majority of people can find other people to love and be loved by.

So true! Being genetic male causes me to be naturally more visually attracted to people, but as I've gotten older I've come to realize how superficial and unimportant that really is and I find that I am much more attracted to the real human being living inside that shell we call our body. Perhaps having spent an extended time on HRT has opened me up emotionally to more meaningful inter-personal relationships than I was able or willing to have previously.

Quote from: Shantel on May 14, 2014, 11:43:25 AM
So true! Being genetic male causes me to be naturally more visually attracted to people, but as I've gotten older I've come to realize how superficial and unimportant that really is and I find that I am much more attracted to the real human being living inside that shell we call our body. Perhaps having spent an extended time on HRT has opened me up emotionally to more meaningful inter-personal relationships than I was able or willing to have previously.

^THIS^  It's all about forming an emotional bond.  Looks are hardly a factor to me, as youth and conventional beauty fades with time.  Inner beauty is everything to me.  And from your statement before, I'd love to kick Hugh Hefner in the balls for propagating standards for both men and women that are so damaging and unrealistic.

Quote from: Jill F on May 14, 2014, 12:12:31 PM
^THIS^  It's all about forming an emotional bond.  Looks are hardly a factor to me, as youth and conventional beauty fades with time.  Inner beauty is everything to me.  And from your statement before, I'd love to kick Hugh Hefner in the balls for propagating standards for both men and women that are so damaging and unrealistic.

LMAO my kinda feisty gal!   

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