Sorry for being an interloper, but another post on here made me think of a topic that I'm wondering about. I've met a number of FTMs who seemingly don't hang with men. They never seem to be around guys, and don't have a preference or seeming need for male friendship or bonding. So, what I'm asking is, do you feel that, whether or not you deeply feel in your heart you are male, do you like being with men, particularly natal-men? Do you have a wish to be around groups of men or close man to man friendship? How often are you around natal-males in a friendship role? Do you ever feel intimidated or not accepted by natal-males when you seek this out?

curious,
Gina M.

I do enjoy hanging out with men. I sometimes feel like I'm missing some of the social codes with straight men because most of my male friends have been gay men. I enjoy the kind of putting each other down teasing that straight guys do and am still learning my limits with it (how to be offensive enough to get a laugh, but not too offensive).

I like hanging out with women too, as long as they're not hair, shoes and makeup obsessed.

Dennis

I like hanging around with men however most of them are gay males however not camp... some are some aren't I haven't really got a preference on which sex I like to be around a both sexes are different to me it depends on the person... however if I had to choose... It would be.... um... male. As I would relate to males better..

However I have more female friends than I do male and I am fine with that... I don't need a male relationship in my life...

I thrive off peoples personalities.. so there sex doesn't really come into the agenda.

The only male friends i have are the guys at work. I have a small circle of female friends and thats just about it for me with friends.

Though, i do enjoy the banter with the guys at work. We go out for drinks, we have a laugh and we can have some great convo's that you just couldn't have with a girl. I would like more male friends... but i find it difficult to make friends on my own.

I don't have too many female friends -- never have. I just can't relate. When I was little, I thought there was something wrong with me. I couldn't really socialize with girls -- they just seemed to goody-goody! -- and usually ran with the boys. Still do, of course, but now it feels normal. I do relate well to gay guys, but most of my male friends are straight.

My own personal experience with FTM in support groups and elsewhere is that unless they transitioned young and are physically able to take space in men's space and have the sufficient cultural background to fit in, it wil be hard for them to fit in.

I think its easier for a MTF to integrate with women than FTM to integrate with men. Women accept more MTF and FTM.

That means that its also harder for MTF to have romantic coupling with men than FTM to have romantic coupling with women. In


I know of one FTM who fit really well, other older ones don't fit so well, and are

I don't think guys have the same sort of friendships that women do, Gina. It's usually centred around doing something, like drinking beer and watching sports, or going fishing. The depth of conversation sometimes will extend to talking about splitting up with a wife or something, but usually is that banter that guys do. And catching up with what's going on. Sometimes talking politics with friends who work in forestry or fishing (two jobs that politics impact quite heavily where I live). Other times, it's cars, women, boy toys, and bikes. If I'm with lawyer friends, we talk about cases and quirky judges and stuff.

I think there is stuff that's more in depth there, but you don't really dwell on it, like women will. Women can dissect a 3 minute argument for days. Men will say something like "she doesn't like me going out for beers after work because you guys had to pour me in the door last week." And that's the end of it, other than it serving as good fodder for banter later. Like, "grab me a beer while you're up"..."shouldn't you call your wife for permission first?"

It's just not the same as women's friendships, and I like the male version better. You know what's going on, but you don't have to go on and on and on about it.

As far as what I do with my male friends, if they're the loggers and fishermen, it's usually drinking beer, going to a ball game or going fishing. If it's the motorbike buddies, we hang out at the bike shop and talk bikes. The lawyers, we go to a retired judge's house and hang out with some beers and talk.

A good friend is one you can call up at 3 AM and say "I'm in jail and I need a ride home" and they'll come and get you. A great friend is in the cell next to you.

Dennis

I would say I've got two male friends who I love and would call best friends. Both are gay. Chris and Lyle. We've known each other for 30 years and I'm surprised I wasn't in a cell with one or both of them at some point. We did get up to some things in our youth, especially Chris and I.

Dennis

It would be more interesting to find out about the post-transition relationships, cause that would be the ones that truly reveal the ability to build new relationships afterwards

I'm surprised at how often I hear women -- both trans and GG -- talk about straight men not having "deep" or "close" relationships with other men, or not having strong emotions or feelings. Sure, there are a lot of fart jokes, but we do talk about serious things and we do care about each other. Women say that men can't communicate, but I've often said that women just can't understand how men communicate. Women see a group of men making jokes and watching TV, and that's all they see, but it's often a complex competition for dominance or a bonding experience. (I can't believe I just said "bonding experience.")

QuoteI think there is stuff that's more in depth there, but you don't really dwell on it, like women will. Women can dissect a 3 minute argument for days.

I don't miss that at all! Especially since it's usually glaringly obvious that some guy made an offhand comment and they interpreted it a million different ways. "Did he mean I'm fat? Or did he mean I'm fat compared to my friends? Or did he mean I'm not fat but I could stand to lose a little weight or that I'm fat but he doesn't care or my friends are skinnier than I am or I should go on Atkins or..." Sigh.

QuoteMy own personal experience with FTM in support groups and elsewhere is that unless they transitioned young and are physically able to take space in men's space and have the sufficient cultural background to fit in, it wil be hard for them to fit in.

This may be because it's hard to shift from a "cooperative" (female) environment to a "competitive" (male) environment. Having two brothers (and transitioning at 17), I was prepared for it. Some aren't, and stay in the lesbian, gay, or female community. To me, they're missing out on a lot. There's something to be said for the "secret men's club" (as Matt Kailey phrased it in his book). I adjusted quickly and even became a sort of alpha male, which is a hell of a lot of fun!

Competitive, in some ways. The weightlifting, I get competitive with the guys who don't work physical labour for a living. The guys who do work physical labour, there's no chance for me to catch up and they know it.

As far as the dick thing goes, most straight guys I know don't know about the fact that I'm hung like a hamster. I say it, but only in a joking way. The few who know laugh but that's one of the things they'd never tease me about. It's like having a disability. We might be ->-bleeped-<-s, but unless you know someone's totally comfortable with having a disability, you're not going to tease them about it.

It's not like, at least with the guys I hang with, that you're going to pick on someone so far behind you to make yourself feel good. You compete with people who have a chance of beating you. Then you take it in stride if you get beaten. That's why nobody who knows will bug me about how unendowed I am, but the better I get at lifting, the more the stronger guys will take me on. That's a compliment for me.

Dennis

My closest friends are in the ground.

all my buddies are bio dudes.  been hangin out w/dudes since age 12.  cant relate w/most chicks for friends.  but I only like girls for love & relatinships.
only got three trans dudes friends.  dont hang out together to much. da trans dudes I know tell me u gotta act dis way.  talk dat way.  sit like dis.  talk 2 girls like dat.  i dont like dat.  i like being me.  this is me.  maybe to masculine but this is me.  i dont make believe im masculine.  im a dude and dat comes natural for me.  bio dudes dont give a  &$*% how u talk. sit. dress.  ur a dude thats it.  they dont bother w/sh#t like dat.  i dont like to be told how i gotta be. act. talk.  bio dudes dont care.  trans dudes care & talk abut sh#t like who is real trans or not.  thats why i hnag out w/bio dudes all da time.  they are like me.

Quote from: regina on August 28, 2007, 12:22:27 AM
Okay, but tell me about your man to man relationships. Like, what guys are you close with, where do you know them from, do you ever feel competitive with them from a standpoint of being trans vs. them being cisgendered? Do you feel as if there's ever an issue about having a dick vs. not having a typical dick (a legit question, guys, not a joke)? Do you ever think about your physical strength compared to theirs? No, believe it or not, there's a lot more to men's relationships than that, it's just it's so rare that I ever hear transmen talk about anything like that. Again, the large majority of transmen I ever see never hang with straight men at all. The ones I know and see, if they're ever with men it's gay men or other transmen. And I'd like to hear from transmen themselves what that's all about and is it true? Not theories, but from your real lives.

ciao,
Gina M.

ps and I'm not suggesting it's only true of transmen. There are many transwomen who just can't hang out with natal women (especially non-queer ones), can't talk to them or just don't find them interesting. They hang with guys or other transwomen. I have a hard time wrapping myself around that one too because women are such a big part of my life.

Well, I'll try to answer your question from my own perspective, (speaking only for myself and not as the 'Universal Trainman' of course) But the fact that you've asked and re-asked the question points out the truth of what Dennis was saying about Women dissecting things for days, vs minutes.   

And that's just it... it's not that one is better than the other, and yes, I can totally enjoy the complete thrashing of some topics - depending on my mood and the topic.  But... that's certainly one of the biggest differences I see between hanging with the guys vs the girls.

As it happens, I really enjoy hanging with the guys from work, and relate to them on the whole better than the women.  Time restraints have kept me from a lot of socializing a lot with either, but the time I spend sure shows a difference.  With the women, I find the same things being repeated again and again.  With the men, there's always a different subject, and the topic wanders much more freely.

I've found that, as Dennis said, males handle competition much more differently than women do, and while there IS a definite competitiveness, it's a much more open and honest one.  Moreover, there's a sense of self-depreciation (esp when the guys are by themselves) that women seldom see or appreciate - almost like instead of who's the biggest stud or the strongest guy, many guys are the first to say they're hung like a snail, or are "3 minute men", etc.

You could go into volumes about what this means, consciously or sub-consciously, but I suspect it boils down to this - guys like joking around and having fun - even if the jokes on them.  And the guy who puts himself down the most (with the appropriate moderation), is sometimes the one that the other guys actually respect the most.  Maybe because he becomes the one the rest feel is without bragging or BS, or ego... I don't know, but it just makes a guy more likeable.

Think of some of the greatest comedians - they often are great at putting themselves down because that just makes other people more comfortable.  Granted, there's some great women comedians who do the same, but it somehow seems more like a guy thing.  Maybe because too, it's just a refreshing change from the more stereotypical male ego thing.   

Who knows..? I'm rambling here... sorry folks.  Kinda hard to pin a question like this down I guess.

Scott

Lately, they found out, by attaching mikes and mp3 recorders that recorded stretches of words at random intervals, to college men and women and recording them for a month, that men and women talk exactly the same amount of words. The thing that differ most, men don't tend to talk a lot about relationships and disclose inner feelings. Men, when started on certain subjects cannot be stopped (cars, golf, lawmowers, etc.).

Since men don't like talking about relationships and women do, that obviously can cause much grief in couples... In those situation, men will indeed shut up, and the women will go on and on, which expresses the stereotype of women talking more (but this is just one particular context).

You're so right, Keira. A good way to torture a man is to say "we need to talk. Meet you in an hour?". He'll spend the next hour trying to figure out what he could possibly have done wrong and dreading the marathon of beating it into the ground.

And, Gina, most of us are only a few years into transition. That's too short a time to develop a best friends type relationship. That's why you're not hearing about post-transition best buds.

Dennis

Quote from: Chris on August 28, 2007, 02:19:30 AM
da trans dudes I know tell me u gotta act dis way.  talk dat way.  sit like dis.  talk 2 girls like dat.  trans dudes care & talk abut sh#t like who is real trans or not. 

Wow, that's very unheard of in the TG community, Chris. 

tink

Quote from: Tink on August 28, 2007, 09:37:59 PM

Quote from: Chris on August 28, 2007, 02:19:30 AM
da trans dudes I know tell me u gotta act dis way.  talk dat way.  sit like dis.  talk 2 girls like dat.  trans dudes care & talk abut sh#t like who is real trans or not. 

Wow, that's very unheard of in the TG community, Chris. 

tink

Yeah no kidding. I feel lucky to have transitioned in a small town, being the only one (although there are a couple of others, but I don't know them). At least nobody tells me how I should act or dress or that I'm not 'trans enough'. I see enough of that crap online.

Dennis

Quote from: regina on August 28, 2007, 08:38:43 AM

So you're saying transmen tend to be more insecure than natal men and, maybe, a little less controlling?

insecure about being "real trans or real dude".  dunno.  I'm a masculine dude.  I aint an xtreme masculine dude.  I like sweatshirts.  sometimes all colors.  green. red.   they say that "real dudes dont wear red or yellow".  bull sh#t.  my bio buddies wear colors like that all time.  they saay "real dudes spit on the st".  I cant do that man.  thats gross.   "dudes take a piss at evry corner".  not da dudes I know.  "real dudes" dont wash there hands and sh#t like that"  not true regina.  I work & live w/bio dudes.  they aint like that.

Quote from: regina on August 28, 2007, 08:38:43 AM

do any of the natal men you hang with know your history or do they only know you as a guy? Not trying to make some big point, I'm just curious? Thanks for the response, Chris (or any other guys who feel like answering)

ciao,
Gina M.

I got a lot friends.  most are bio dudes.  they know I dont got the same stuff down there.  they know 'cause we have grown togethr when we were little kids.  they dont care.  I'm a dude like them.  they treat me as a dude.  no special treatment.  we talk bout everythin.  girls. work. sex.  no difference.  they never make me feel like a freak u dig?  only time I feel like sh#t is when trans dudes say u aint real 'cause u gotta dress like dis.  spit on da floor.  cheat on ur girl.  & sh#t like dat.  they dont know.  dunno where they get dis stuff but it aint so.  bio dudes aint bad, u dig?

Quote from: Chris on August 29, 2007, 04:02:11 AM
I got a lot friends.  most are bio dudes.  they know I dont got the same stuff down there.  they know 'cause we have grown togethr when we were little kids.  they dont care.  I'm a dude like them.  they treat me as a dude.  no special treatment.  we talk bout everythin.  girls. work. sex.  no difference.  they never make me feel like a freak u dig?  only time I feel like sh#t is when trans dudes say u aint real 'cause u gotta dress like dis.  spit on da floor.  cheat on ur girl.  & sh#t like dat.  they dont know.  dunno where they get dis stuff but it aint so.  bio dudes aint bad, u dig?

Exactly bro...!  Saying that you have to be a pig in order to be a guy, is just as screwed up as saying Transwomen have to be every bad stereotype of women, (catty, a dumb blonde, ignorant about science, cars, tools, etc, etc.)

There's Trans folks of both pursausions that may fall for that, but that's their loss.  Identifying as male or female doesn't mean you have to take on every bad, messed up trait of that gender.

Scott