I don't get the sense that the bio guys talk about me at all when I'm not there. One guy, likely thinking I actually wanted tips on being a guy said a couple of things when I first knew him, like "don't use the word cute". I responded with, "ok, I'll use the word fabulous". He got the hint pretty fast and doesn't do that anymore. He only did it out of caring though, not to tell me who to be. He's smaller than me (about 5'3") and has probably had to compensate by being really macho to avoid being victimized when he was younger. Luckily at my age we don't have to worry about that stuff. I get the sense I'm accepted the way I am.

And maybe it's a guy thing, or maybe it's a me thing, but a couple of years isn't long enough to build a best bud relationship, especially when I have so many people who've been in my life for 30-40 years. I have good friends, friends who I'd call up if I needed a hand, or who'd call me if they needed a hand, but guy talk doesn't build that kind of intimacy that fast. Which is cool with me. I have many more years to live.

Dennis

I imagine everybody talks about their friends behind their back. When you're close to someone there's always things about them that get on your last nerve. You get especially irritated with a friend that day, you start ranting and dissing them to everyone who'll listen that knows them. And you're going to bring up everything - how fat they are, how greedy they are, every last annoying habit they have, etc
So of course if they're trans, that's going to be brought up. But probably no more important than anything else, except it's something to diss them for.

Thing is, if you care for somebody as a friend, you also 'hate' them. If nobody talks about you or rips into you behind your back, means they don't give a ->-bleeped-<- or you're not worthy of discussion.
So, I'd more concerned if I wasn't talked about. So if guys were to talk ->-bleeped-<- about my not having the emeralds or something, I wouldn't take it to heart. I know who I am, and they know too.

To the point here I do love to hang out with guys!

They are so fun to be with. I like their outlooks on life! Much different than mine , but fun to be around.

Deb

Quote from: Dennis on August 29, 2007, 08:40:06 AM
He's smaller than me (about 5'3") and has probably had to compensate by being really macho to avoid being victimized when he was younger. Luckily at my age we don't have to worry about that stuff. I get the sense I'm accepted the way I am.

That's good to hear--I'm still kinda worried about not quite fitting in with men because of my size... mostly 'cuz of stuff a friend said (that I'll never have the attributes that men value/respect--height, large shoulders, a sizable package).

As for my own friends... I have a several bio-guy buds, but none of them know I'm trans yet.  They definitely know there's something very different about me, but they prolly just attribute that to me liking women; y'know, 'mannish lesbian' sorta thing.  Hanging out with them, I feel mostly like 'one of the guys'; but there's always a sort of subtle acknowledgement from them that I'm not and can't fully be one of them.  It's kinda like, no matter how I appear or act, they take a good look at my face or hear my voice, and the immediate label is 'oh, girl. cute.'  Goddamn.

As far as what we do when we hang out... well, just hanging out is good.  Chilling, talking about computers or music, watching movies with hot girls.  Concerts, metal, moshing... sweet.  Drinking of course (go college).  I have a better alcohol tolerance than the majority of guys I drink with; funny how that garners respect, lol.  We don't do 'deep conversations' on people or emotions.  I like it like that.  Definitely different from girls, but I only have one bio-female friend who tries to carry on talk-about-people-and-feelings with me to compare it to.  Oh and my mom; she does that too.  I try to pay attention so I don't seem like an ass, but... "uh-huh" soon becomes my favorite word.  To be fair, I have met some girls who aren't very gossipy and I like that, but... it's always kinda awkward with them; like I'm expected to be one of them somehow, but I can't quite measure up or relate.

I don't really have gay male friends, just acquaintances; so we talk about the usual acquaintance-type stuff: how's school, what've you been up to, etc.  The bio-guy I'm closest to (who knows about me) isn't especially masculine and tends to talk more, but he isn't... well, sorta gossipy like girls can be.  He'll talk about stuff that's more emotional than machines (family stuff), but it's also a lot of philosophy and ideas (about the environment, buildings, stuff like that--we're both engineering students).  That's a bit different than the interaction with guys I'm used to, but it's kinda nice to know that I'm allowed to have some emotion even if I don't really express it.  We also do a lot of outdoors stuff together--hiking, camping, whitewater rafting; just doing stuff together and not really needing to talk is good too.

Quote from: Eryk on August 29, 2007, 02:11:18 PMHanging out with them, I feel mostly like 'one of the guys'; but there's always a sort of subtle acknowledgement from them that I'm not and can't fully be one of them.  It's kinda like, no matter how I appear or act, they take a good look at my face or hear my voice, and the immediate label is 'oh, girl. cute.'  Goddamn.

That's unfortunate. The only time I ever got that kind of thing was when a guy started coming around who I'd never hung with, but the others knew well. At first, they'd be kind of like 'what! she's runs with you on jobs?' and ->-bleeped-<-, but after they saw I could hold my own and contributed a lot, and wasn't just 'the female who tags along', that kinda thing stopped.
It's a natural reaction for a lot of guys at first, until they see you're down and know what the hell's up.

I don't have a ton of friends with whom I interact in everyday life, I admit. My best friend is, honestly, my wife, and we spend every waking moment together (yes, folks, that is possible). She is mtf, so spent 18 years of her life living as a guy, and we get along fine.

Other than that, I talk to quite a few fellow ftms online. It's nice to have people with whom I can identify. I also tend to get along quite well with mtfs.

Bio guys? You know, I really don't discriminate when it comes to my friends, at least as far as pertains to sex and gender. One of the people I talk to often online is a bisexual, bio male... we have plenty to talk about, as do he and my wife. Aria and I hang out often with a group of mostly men who hang out at the beach out here, and the only times we are at a loss for what to talk about tend to be when we don't know the topics. Conversation style is irrelevant. What makes more sense to me, and what I discriminate more on the basis of, is intelligence. If someone can have a good, coherent conversation with me, they're more likely to become my friend. Nothing drives me more insane than to talk to someone who says nothing but, "Hey, how's it going? Weather's been nice. God, that chick is hot. I'm hungry. What'd you eat yesterday?" If I wanted to shoot the breeze, I'd hang out in a McDonald's all day and take orders.

To me, it doesn't matter whether your friends are bio males, bio females, intersexed, homosexual, transsexual, purple, green... people are PEOPLE. There's a lot more to a person than what's in his/her/its pants.

Quote from: regina on August 28, 2007, 11:53:01 PM
I wish we would get back to the subject of FTMs and how they interact with natal-men.

ciao,
Gina M.

Don't be so impatient. Threads flow as they flow. Perhaps it's impertinent to find out about ftms' relationships with bio men... what would it prove, really? That we're not real men? Who does that benefit?

Dino

I praise your honesty Regina.

Quote from: regina on August 29, 2007, 10:38:22 PM
Yes, there is a lot more to people than what's in their pants, but that doesn't mean that natal-men don't have different experiences and possibly different outlooks than transmen do.

That goes without saying. I will always be different from natal men in that respect. Even a guy who transitioned in childhood would still always be different from natal men. There are just some things socialization into the correct gender can never make up for.

Posted on: August 30, 2007, 12:22:57 AM

---

Quote from: regina on August 29, 2007, 10:38:22 PM

Quote from: Nero on August 29, 2007, 12:16:59 PM
Thing is, if you care for somebody as a friend, you also 'hate' them. If nobody talks about you or rips into you behind your back, means they don't give a ->-bleeped-<- or you're not worthy of discussion.
So, I'd more concerned if I wasn't talked about. So if guys were to talk ->-bleeped-<- about my not having the emeralds or something, I wouldn't take it to heart. I know who I am, and they know too.

I think there's big difference between people I hate (which is very few when I think of the people I'm in contact with) and people I like but feel the desire to talk about them when they aren't there (and not in a mean way). What I was talking about is that a number of men here mentioned that natal men don't talk about them like transmen do and I responded by saying, "well, maybe, but you don't know how the natal-men speak when you're not around." I'm not saying everyone should be paranoid, just to not idealize their relationships.

I think how transmen relate to natal-men is a really interesting subject and one that I don't hear many transguys ever talk about. I'd like to hear more.

ciao,
Gina M.

*sigh* The English language is soooo limited. There are two kinds of hatred - real 'I'm not laughing' hatred and affectionate hatred.

Sorry to hijack your topic Regina but I've got to answer to Nero's post.  Nero, sorry if I have misunderstood you.  I only socialized with girls from early childhood.  You mean I would still always be different from a  natal female because there are just some things socialization into the correct gender can never make up for?  would you care to elaborate?  thanks kindly.

Quote from: Butterfly on August 29, 2007, 11:30:37 PM
Sorry to hijack your topic Regina but I've got to answer to Nero's post.  Nero, sorry if I have misunderstood you.  I only socialized with girls from early childhood.  You mean I would still always be different from a  natal female because there are just some things socialization into the correct gender can never make up for?  would you care to elaborate?  thanks kindly.

Just stuff like being born in the right body and the privilege of such. Always being seen as yourself, physical aspects some of which transpeople will never experience, not having to fight for your identity, and go through physical alterations, etc.
Also, while it may not be true of all transpeople, some of us (like me) tend to have stunted development, and not normal childhoods, etc.
Ex: Some of us get stunted at the onset of puberty and don't grow emotionally and mature as rapidly as our natal peers. This is due to a lot of things, such as fear of becoming an adult member of the opposite gender (boy turning into a woman and vice versa), and just not being able to thrive as your birth sex.

That's why I'm different than natal men anyway. I should've just said 'I' will always be different, as transpeople have different experiences and lives, and some may have grown up much the same as their natal peers.

 

Quote from: regina on August 29, 2007, 10:38:22 PM

No one is forcing you to be in this thread. If you just want to be pissy, you can just ignore it.

Yes, there is a lot more to people than what's in their pants, but that doesn't mean that natal-men don't have different experiences and possibly different outlooks than transmen do. And I'm not saying people HAVE to have certain kinds of friends, but I am asking a group of people who are transitioning towards a certain gender how they get along with people who are born into that gender... especially people from the non-queer spectrum of the larger population. Sorry you have a problem with that and you've evidently angry with me at something I posted on a thread of yours, but maybe you're just angry period.

ciao,
Gina M.

Whew! Who turned up the heat?

I didn't intend to cause upset, and I doubt such fierceness is truly warranted, but I digress. I merely expressed my opinion, as I always do. I apologize if my blatant honesty can come across as somewhat brash. But if I can't be honest, who can?

I have no intent to get into an altercation. Just giving my input, as a technical FtM. Sorry I don't fit into a cubicle.

Dino

Quote from: Nero on August 29, 2007, 11:44:38 PM
That's why I'm different than natal men anyway. I should've just said 'I' will always be different, as transpeople have different experiences and lives, and some may have grown up much the same as their natal peers. 

thats cool to say.  it aint da same for everybody bro.  "I" dont see me different than any bio dude.  I dont got da parts.  so? it dont make no difference. nobody's complain  bout dat yet I got everything else. health. life. love. family. job. friends. I'm livin as "me chris".  got top sergery done.  no complaints from me.  I'm thankful to God & my family.  bio dudes say they dont see me different & I dont see'em differeent. & women say I'm better in everythin.  dunno.  its there opinion.

Quote from: regina on August 29, 2007, 10:38:22 PM

Quote from: DeanO on August 29, 2007, 08:28:45 PM


I don't have a ton of friends with whom I interact in everyday life, I admit. My best friend is, honestly, my wife, and we spend every waking moment together (yes, folks, that is possible). She is mtf, so spent 18 years of her life living as a guy, and we get along fine.

Other than that, I talk to quite a few fellow ftms online. It's nice to have people with whom I can identify. I also tend to get along quite well with mtfs.

Bio guys? You know, I really don't discriminate when it comes to my friends, at least as far as pertains to sex and gender. One of the people I talk to often online is a bisexual, bio male... we have plenty to talk about, as do he and my wife. Aria and I hang out often with a group of mostly men who hang out at the beach out here, and the only times we are at a loss for what to talk about tend to be when we don't know the topics. Conversation style is irrelevant. What makes more sense to me, and what I discriminate more on the basis of, is intelligence. If someone can have a good, coherent conversation with me, they're more likely to become my friend. Nothing drives me more insane than to talk to someone who says nothing but, "Hey, how's it going? Weather's been nice. God, that chick is hot. I'm hungry. What'd you eat yesterday?" If I wanted to shoot the breeze, I'd hang out in a McDonald's all day and take orders.

To me, it doesn't matter whether your friends are bio males, bio females, intersexed, homosexual, transsexual, purple, green... people are PEOPLE. There's a lot more to a person than what's in his/her/its pants.

Quote from: regina on August 28, 2007, 11:53:01 PM
I wish we would get back to the subject of FTMs and how they interact with natal-men.

ciao,
Gina M.

Don't be so impatient. Threads flow as they flow. Perhaps it's impertinent to find out about ftms' relationships with bio men... what would it prove, really? That we're not real men? Who does that benefit?

Dino

No one is forcing you to be in this thread. If you just want to be pissy, you can just ignore it.

Yes, there is a lot more to people than what's in their pants, but that doesn't mean that natal-men don't have different experiences and possibly different outlooks than transmen do. And I'm not saying people HAVE to have certain kinds of friends, but I am asking a group of people who are transitioning towards a certain gender how they get along with people who are born into that gender... especially people from the non-queer spectrum of the larger population. Sorry you have a problem with that and you've evidently angry with me at something I posted on a thread of yours, but maybe you're just angry period.

Gina M.

Posted on: August 29, 2007, 10:31:44 PM

---

Whoa....!  Regina, I appreciate the thread you brought up, and it's an interesting one - but NO one is being forced to read it or to post.  We're trying to answer and discuss a pretty wide open question though; one that's nebulous enough not to have clear cut, or black/white answers...

You've gotten a lot of different responses from different Transmen here, and we're trying - but it doesn't seem to be satisfying you - you keep asking for more. Dino just gave some honest, non-offensive response from his own perspective, and you told him to get back to the thread.


Please don't be calling people pissy or telling them to ignore the thread of they don't like it - that's not going to engender a more open response from folks.

That's not how I read his response at all - there was no anger, no pissyness; just his own perspective.  Please try not to take offense where surely none was meant; that won't help anyone want to offer an answer to your questions at all.


In all due respect,

Scott

QuoteOne guy, likely thinking I actually wanted tips on being a guy said a couple of things when I first knew him, like "don't use the word cute". I responded with, "ok, I'll use the word fabulous". He got the hint pretty fast and doesn't do that anymore.

That's the one thing I really hate about bio guys who know I'm trans! Currently, only a few guys on campus know. There's one guy who's ALWAYS getting on me about not acting manly enough. I don't scold him for it because I know he's doing it because he cares a lot about me. But that's one sure way to piss a transguy off. Imagine if you did that to a bio guy! Hell, if you thought a guy was trans (but he wasn't), you'd probably look at him and think of a million ways he's not being "macho" enough.

QuoteTo be real, bioguys constantly get reminders about their masculinity. And it's not only jocks or rednecks who do it. When you're in the work work, there is constant feedback about you as a man in many subtle ways, both in terms of performance, in a physical sense, your taste or style, people wanting to hang out with you, being one of the 'guys' (or an outcast), whatever. Your parents will tell you how to behave as a boy and then a man from the time you're an infant. People will make wincing faces if you do something that isn't viewed as male. Women often goad their men about their masculinity (at the same time they say they want a sensitive man).

Yes, but it's not as overt. Of course, every guy gets ribbed about his masculinity, but it's more of a joke -- i.e. you have a small penis, you're gay, you can't perform, you like to wear pink and dance around like a ballerina, etc. No one questions your actual gender, at least not seriously. With transguys, every comment about your masculinity is like are you sure you're really meant to be a guy?

Funny story. I know a transguy, "Ed," who works in construction. No one at his workplace knows that he's trans. They're constantly ribbing the other guys about their penis size, of course. They'll be measuring a board and they'll say, "Eight inches? I know how we can measure it! Take Ed's and divide it by four!" To which he inwardly thinks: I wish!

Just a little bit to add... have never had many friends, period.  BUT I especially like hanging out with men now that i'm presenting as male.  I don't know how to explain it, it just feels different and real.  A couple of weeks ago i was at a ball game and I felt just like one of the guys.  It was great.

Quote from: regina on August 30, 2007, 08:15:24 PM

Quote from: Andrew on August 30, 2007, 05:35:12 PM

QuoteTo be real, bioguys constantly get reminders about their masculinity. And it's not only jocks or rednecks who do it. When you're in the work work, there is constant feedback about you as a man in many subtle ways, both in terms of performance, in a physical sense, your taste or style, people wanting to hang out with you, being one of the 'guys' (or an outcast), whatever. Your parents will tell you how to behave as a boy and then a man from the time you're an infant. People will make wincing faces if you do something that isn't viewed as male. Women often goad their men about their masculinity (at the same time they say they want a sensitive man).

Yes, but it's not as overt. Of course, every guy gets ribbed about his masculinity, but it's more of a joke -- i.e. you have a small penis, you're gay, you can't perform, you like to wear pink and dance around like a ballerina, etc. No one questions your actual gender, at least not seriously. With transguys, every comment about your masculinity is like are you sure you're really meant to be a guy?

Funny story. I know a transguy, "Ed," who works in construction. No one at his workplace knows that he's trans. They're constantly ribbing the other guys about their penis size, of course. They'll be measuring a board and they'll say, "Eight inches? I know how we can measure it! Take Ed's and divide it by four!" To which he inwardly thinks: I wish!

All I can say is that, when you're growing up, none of those jokes feel like jokes, they feel like put downs and it feels like you're being put in a pecking order or being bullied. Maybe when you get older you get a little more perspective about why people say those remarks to you if you allow yourself to think about it.

ciao,
Gina M.

Yes, I understand. That's part of why I say that we will always be different in some respects than natal members of our target sex.
Girls have a pecking order and do bully and malign girls who aren't feminine enough or pretty. Which is a fact that the trans community as whole tends to downplay.

Quote from: Nero on August 30, 2007, 08:48:57 PM

Yes, I understand. That's part of why I say that we will always be different in some respects than natal members of our target sex.
Girls have a pecking order and do bully and malign girls who aren't feminine enough or pretty. Which is a fact that the trans community as whole tends to downplay.

From what I've seen, transwomen do it as badly as teenage girls (in some cases). My girlfriend has looked over my shoulder at some threads where I've been debating mod action and said "god, it's like being in high school again, only thank god it's not me."

Which might actually be why a lot of us FtM guys prefer hanging out with bio guys. They've done their puberty. I haven't hung with many FtM's, but perhaps that's the guy version of going through those teenage heirarchies. More manly than thou. Ain't got time for that at my age.

Dennis

QuoteAll I can say is that, when you're growing up, none of those jokes feel like jokes, they feel like put downs and it feels like you're being put in a pecking order or being bullied. Maybe when you get older you get a little more perspective about why people say those remarks to you if you allow yourself to think about it.

ciao,
Gina M.

I agree that some people mean these things in a malicious way. But most of it is harmless. At first, I was on the defensive when I heard things like that. Then I began to realize that it's just another way that guys communicate. We're testing each other's boundaries and all that. And a lot of it is just plain joking around. It probably felt like more than teasing when you were growing up, either because it was really malicious (kids can be cruel) or because as a transperson you didn't feel like you belonged. I know that I could never handle girls teasing me when I was little -- it was awful! But now that I'm on the other side, I have a lot more perspective.

I've drifted a lot from many of the straight male friends I had in high school, but I've made a tonne of gay male friends since starting uni. I definitely feel much more comfortable around men than women and crave that male-male bond. But I find it's much easier to find this with gay men. My best friend in the entire world is a gay man I went to high school with. He has been very supportive of my transition and we have such a close bond people often describe us as a married couple.