Quote from: Wolfy on May 21, 2014, 07:23:56 PM
Is being on T required to start top surgery? and if not does it look any different or cause any differences when you start on t?

Haven't read the rest of the responses, but no, it absolutely IS NOT a requirement to get chest surgery.  Depending on your size, some surgeons might be reluctant to do it before HRT (it may be because of insurance, or something), but I haven't heard of any in the last decade actually refusing to do it pre-HRT.  My bra size was 38K (to be frank, they were seriously each about as big as my head; for some reason, I never got around to burning the old bra, and if anyone wants a photo, I could demonstrate) --starting HRT before chest surgery would've done me no good, in all honesty.

It really shouldn't affect shape any more than the skill of the surgeon.

And cos some people will swear up and down that "you'll double your healing time" or something if you don't get drains, but that's false, too, cos I never had 'em, and my incisions actually healed ahead of schedule.  And just cos of how much tissue had to come off (about 9kg --that's nearly 20lbs), my incisions go around to my back.  Some surgeons think drains are practically superfluous, that they're a whole lot of maintenance for a negligible effect on the outcome.  Other surgeons still use 'em, cos it's what they were taught.

Quote from: Brett on May 27, 2014, 10:40:33 PM
"Sex reassignment" for FTMs is top surgery, while for MTFs, it is bottom surgery.

Not necessarily.

It depends on the country and/or state or province.  And apparently some States in the US were seriously considering making genital surgery a requirement for trans men after Thomas Beatie made headlines --I don't know which ones (if any) were successful, but the surgical requirements for getting a letter change on ID or driver's lisence are usually more relaxed than BC ammendment requirements (fun fact: in Ohio, Idaho, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Nebreska, and Puerto Rico, it doesn't matter how iron-clad you think the change on your BC from another state is, it's considered an alteration to a document that that says your sex is [whatever the obstetrician put down when you were born], so in the case of FTMs in Ohio and seeking to marry cis female partners, or at least *stay married* after moving to Cleveland from Boston [as happened to a friend of mine], well, that's a same-sex marriage in Ohio, which Ohio doesn't recognise, and have fun with that, now).

There are very few, if any, "universal" laws regarding transgender people, even just within the United States (don't get me started on the rest of the Anglosphere).

"Sex reassignment" for trans women and men may fit the above model for a majority of States (I don't know if it is or not, off the top of my head), but you gotta check the local laws.  In general, it's easier to update one's state ID, driver's license, or passport than one's BC, and in a few of states, trans people still can't change their BC, and changed BCs from other States aren't recognised by at least one of those states for the purposes of filing as "married" on income taxes (and maybe more).

Quote from: Brett on May 27, 2014, 10:40:33 PM
"Sex reassignment" for FTMs is top surgery, while for MTFs, it is bottom surgery.

I think you are missing my point here.  I am not debating the fact that we can show our driver's license and get what we want, I am suggesting that it is dangerous to do so if we have not had a "legal" sex change, which I believe equals a change in birth certificate.  I am talking about the legal repercusions from signing a document claiming that you are one sex, when your birth certificate says that you are something else (as in a marriage license).  To me, that is like any other lie on any other application.  Criminal intent.

The original question came from someone's whose birth certificate says female.  His driver's license says he is a male.  Your belief is that since his license says male that it will not be an issue that he marries as a male?  I just don't think this is accurate.  This is what I am wondering about. I don't want it to bite him back in the ass.

I would love to hear from others, their understanding of what is "legally male and what is legally female".  Is it what the birth cert says?

Thanks.

SRS is whatever the state wants it to be. IF the state allows you to have top surgery and call it SRS then it's SRS. But some states do specify genital surgery.

I'm not missing you point. I don't agree with it. Sorry clone brother and all.
IF the BC is NOT asked for and would NOT be asked for. For instance in some states to get a marriage license, they would not EVER ask for a BC. Depends on where it is. If they would not ask for it, you are NOT committing fraud by saying you are male, if what they ask for says you are (say SS admin or driver's license).  It's only fraud if they slip up somehow and you slip by (well I have trouble calling that fraud, but I suppose someone could come after you for it.) There is NO criminal intent or whatever because some other document they don't want says something else.
Some states never allow a change of BC (I think Ohio and the Us territory or protectorate of Puerto Rico), btw. But  you can still drive as a male (AFAIK) and could still go get a passport as male. Not sure re: the marriage license.
And probably, if of age, still have to file with selective service.

If the state somehow specifically disallows trans marriage, this is another kind of problem. I am talking re: states and so on which do not specifically disallows it. (Actually NM does not mention gender in the definition of marriage).
It might be unique though:
"Marriage is contemplated by the law as a civil contract, for which the consent of the contracting parties, capable in law of contracting, is essential." (part of NM definition of marriage. LOL)

I am not sure if you can even say that someone is "legally male or female" at all. It's something I hear trans people say, but I'm not sure if there is one standard definition like that.


--Jay

Quote from: aleon515 on May 28, 2014, 01:20:30 PM
SRS is whatever the state wants it to be. IF the state allows you to have top surgery and call it SRS then it's SRS. But some states do specify genital surgery.

I'm not missing you point. I don't agree with it. Sorry clone brother and all.
IF the BC is NOT asked for and would NOT be asked for. For instance in some states to get a marriage license, they would not EVER ask for a BC. Depends on where it is. If they would not ask for it, you are NOT committing fraud by saying you are male, if what they ask for says you are (say SS admin or driver's license).  It's only fraud if they slip up somehow and you slip by (well I have trouble calling that fraud, but I suppose someone could come after you for it.) There is NO criminal intent or whatever because some other document they don't want says something else.
Some states never allow a change of BC (I think Ohio and the Us territory or protectorate of Puerto Rico), btw. But  you can still drive as a male (AFAIK) and could still go get a passport as male. Not sure re: the marriage license.
And probably, if of age, still have to file with selective service.

If the state somehow specifically disallows trans marriage, this is another kind of problem. I am talking re: states and so on which do not specifically disallows it. (Actually NM does not mention gender in the definition of marriage).
It might be unique though:
"Marriage is contemplated by the law as a civil contract, for which the consent of the contracting parties, capable in law of contracting, is essential." (part of NM definition of marriage. LOL)

I am not sure if you can even say that someone is "legally male or female" at all. It's something I hear trans people say, but I'm not sure if there is one standard definition like that.


--Jay

Ok.

I am curious to know which state does say that SRS for trans men is bottom surgery.  Can you tell me which ones?  I don't want to have to go through them all and I haven't heard of a state that does require bottom surgery for birth certificate changes. 

Jay and Fairy in boots:

I am aware there are different rules in different states for BC, and that also for other things it is national (passport), I put all that in my post (#20).  I am also aware, jay, that all states don't allow BC changes.  I'm not sure what information I gave that is incorrect?  Except for the top surgery automatically being the definition of SRS for all states, I don't think I said anything different from what you guys are saying about information/how to find information on gender marker changes.

I'll go back and read, maybe I missed something.  I would like to have the correct information.

I do get what you are saying Jay on if there is not intent there is nothing criminal. 

Anyway, Jay, I am curious to know what State requires bottom surgery for birth certificate changes.  Thanks.

There are no states that says this specifically. I think it's more of who you get interpreting it. Of course, some do not allow for a change of gender at all (specifically Ohio, Tennessee, ). However there are some states where the wording is particularly, well let's just say weird. Take Louisianna: " Any person born in Louisiana who has sustained sex reassignment or corrective surgery which has changed the anatomical structure of the sex of the individual to that of a sex other than that which appears on the original birth certificate of the individual.." Texas sometimes refuses to change certificates, but there is the ability to do it. (from lambada legal)

I'm pretty sure that the Beatie case aroused the ire of certain folks and maybe got some talk going, but I don't think it actually changed any laws anywhere, at least as far as I could tell.

I'd guess 90%+ of the time top surgery is all you'd need wiht some sort of letter.

BTW, a lawyer friend has this to say, which I thought was interesting (I asked if there was such a thing as "legal gender". "that's a complicated question. but yes. different legalities are governed by different documentation. there is nothing "illegal" about having mismatched documents so that pokes some holes in the idea that there is an absolute male/female. mostly it just means "unquestioned" which again is problematic." Also this, which is interesting: "There are legal implications that show up in contentious divorce and estates situations for people with mismatched gender markers." So those of you getting married (etc) might want to draw up contracts ahead of time.  I'm pretty sure I'll get together with her and talk since she said she would. So if you have any questions... Nothing to do with actual cases, I think this is for "fun".

--Jay

Quote from: Brett on May 28, 2014, 06:08:04 PM
Ok.

I am curious to know which state does say that SRS for trans men is bottom surgery.  Can you tell me which ones?  I don't want to have to go through them all and I haven't heard of a state that does require bottom surgery for birth certificate changes. 

http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/dlchange#40

It's unclear if genital surgery is a legal requirement in Texas or if they just *really* want it done on all trans people, but reading that, I'm assuming more the former.

also of note:
http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/dlchange#20

Michigan wants BC ammended in order to alter DL letter (not sure if this also applies to State ID, but likely does).  I also can't tell if this also applies to people born in a different state, especially one like Ohio, where BCs cannot be changed.

Most states just vague state that "appropriate surgeries have been performed" (or similar wording) and require a doctor's note saying so.  If that means that your doctor is willing to sign off on you after *just* chest surgery and a hysto --or even *just* chest surgery, then clearly in that case "sex reassignment" is chest surgery.

Furthermore, it seems that Illinois has lifted a genital surgery requirement across the board -- this means "sex reassignment" for trans women in Illinois is a doctor's note indicating *some kind of surgery* has been done, without genital reconstruction required as "THE surgery".

Also, if you don't want to go through all the information readily available on the Internet (I'm assuming that's what you meant by "I don't want to have to go through them all"?), then please don't make sweeping pronouncements like '"Sex reassignment" for FTMs is top surgery, while for MTFs, it is bottom surgery.'  It can give people who don't know any better the impression that you have gone through all the legal information available on the internet, and to those who do know better, it gives the impression that you're prone to making hasty assumptions on very little information.

As an aside, I haven't gone though all the available information, either, but I should also be in by already and wanted to point out some of the info I found *very easily* that suggests there are some states that clearly want all TS/TG people to have genital surgery.  Wikipedia also has a few cute graphs on the subject, complete with a footnote about Texas and their extreme reluctance to change birth certificates, at all, but it seems the easiest was for Texas native TS/TG folk to get their BC ammended is to have "all the surgery":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States

Fairy in Boots - I sincerely appreciate you coming in and pointing out my error.  I did acknowledge in my reply post that perhaps I was in error.  I agree that what I said was a sweeping comment.  I hear you say that it is not always clear and that SRS is not always defined as top surgery (or is not always defined at all).

I wrote the statement of "I don't want to go through them all" as a joke to Jay, as he is a friend of mine.  He said that some states do state this specifically (post #25).  That is why I directed it to him, personally (I wrote the question under his quote.  Later I included you in the post).  I thought maybe he knew one or two off the top of his head because he is well versed in laws and such. 

Jay, thanks for the information on the legality from your lawyer friend.  I would say more, but I am late for work!   

Quote from: Fairy In Boots on May 29, 2014, 04:12:17 AM
http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/dlchange#40

It's unclear if genital surgery is a legal requirement in Texas or if they just *really* want it done on all trans people, but reading that, I'm assuming more the former.

also of note:
http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/dlchange#20

Michigan wants BC ammended in order to alter DL letter (not sure if this also applies to State ID, but likely does).  I also can't tell if this also applies to people born in a different state, especially one like Ohio, where BCs cannot be changed.

Most states just vague state that "appropriate surgeries have been performed" (or similar wording) and require a doctor's note saying so.  If that means that your doctor is willing to sign off on you after *just* chest surgery and a hysto --or even *just* chest surgery, then clearly in that case "sex reassignment" is chest surgery.

Furthermore, it seems that Illinois has lifted a genital surgery requirement across the board -- this means "sex reassignment" for trans women in Illinois is a doctor's note indicating *some kind of surgery* has been done, without genital reconstruction required as "THE surgery".

Also, if you don't want to go through all the information readily available on the Internet (I'm assuming that's what you meant by "I don't want to have to go through them all"?), then please don't make sweeping pronouncements like '"Sex reassignment" for FTMs is top surgery, while for MTFs, it is bottom surgery.'  It can give people who don't know any better the impression that you have gone through all the legal information available on the internet, and to those who do know better, it gives the impression that you're prone to making hasty assumptions on very little information.

As an aside, I haven't gone though all the available information, either, but I should also be in by already and wanted to point out some of the info I found *very easily* that suggests there are some states that clearly want all TS/TG people to have genital surgery.  Wikipedia also has a few cute graphs on the subject, complete with a footnote about Texas and their extreme reluctance to change birth certificates, at all, but it seems the easiest was for Texas native TS/TG folk to get their BC ammended is to have "all the surgery":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_transsexualism_in_the_United_States

To be fair the info on Texas is 7 years old, so not exactly what you would call the most up to date.  And it was the wish of one judge. 

Quote from: Brett on May 29, 2014, 07:02:41 AM
Jay, thanks for the information on the legality from your lawyer friend.  I would say more, but I am late for work!   

I'm thinking of going and talkign with her next week about all this stuff. It's interesting to me. Sounds like somewhat of a mixed situation and complex. She's very good and has been workign with the ACLU and stuff.

F.I.B. I think Texas seems like a particularly dicey situation. There are trans people who  lost court cases over the ability to change their gender on the BC. (lambada legal source). I imagine there are other people who have gone in and gotten the BC changed in Texas without any trouble at all, the luck of the draw I suppose, but may be the particular court.

I notice that my home state, Wisconsin, dropped the surgery requirement entirely.

--Jay