Just wondering if any other trans-guys have felt that in some part your gender identity is a result of sociological forces.

Like, as a feminist, I have learned a lot about how women are culturally oppressed by rigid social structures... and I wonder if some part of my need to identify as male is tied to fighting back against those structures of oppression.

For instance, "if I was a boy I wouldn't have to wear dresses" was something I thought frequently as a kid when my family would try to dress me up for things.

So, I feel like some of my identity is tied up in that struggle to reclaim myself from those structures of power... and if there were no gender roles to contend with, I'd probably be okay with whatever bodily characteristics I ended up with (as much as I don't like certain aspects of my body's form and function).

At the same time, I feel like that's legitimate - I really don't want to have to wear dresses (and I don't have to, because I'm an adult! Yay!). And I really don't want to be paid less, or be immediately thought of as less intelligent or qualified or competent. And I don't want to be told constantly that "you'll change your mind, one day you will want kids and want to give birth to your own kids" (my personal thoughts on this: yuck! and ow!)

On the other hand I worry that transitioning and passing will lead to me just taking advantage of male privilege in a system that still systematically oppresses (both cis and especially trans) women. Is part of my motivation for transition coming from a desire to take hold of that privilege? If so, am I a good enough person to wield it in a way that supports (cis and especially trans) women and helps them to gain better footing in society?

And if society treated us all equally, would my internal feelings be enough to still make me want to transition?

Just a curious moral and intellectual struggle I've been engaging with recently... wondering about other people's thoughts and conclusions, or if you've questioned these things yourself and where it has led.

Quote from: pianoforte on May 30, 2014, 03:25:20 PM
Just wondering if any other trans-guys have felt that in some part your gender identity is a result of sociological forces.

Like, as a feminist, I have learned a lot about how women are culturally oppressed by rigid social structures... and I wonder if some part of my need to identify as male is tied to fighting back against those structures of oppression.

For instance, "if I was a boy I wouldn't have to wear dresses" was something I thought frequently as a kid when my family would try to dress me up for things.

So, I feel like some of my identity is tied up in that struggle to reclaim myself from those structures of power... and if there were no gender roles to contend with, I'd probably be okay with whatever bodily characteristics I ended up with (as much as I don't like certain aspects of my body's form and function).

At the same time, I feel like that's legitimate - I really don't want to have to wear dresses (and I don't have to, because I'm an adult! Yay!). And I really don't want to be paid less, or be immediately thought of as less intelligent or qualified or competent. And I don't want to be told constantly that "you'll change your mind, one day you will want kids and want to give birth to your own kids" (my personal thoughts on this: yuck! and ow!)

On the other hand I worry that transitioning and passing will lead to me just taking advantage of male privilege in a system that still systematically oppresses (both cis and especially trans) women. Is part of my motivation for transition coming from a desire to take hold of that privilege? If so, am I a good enough person to wield it in a way that supports (cis and especially trans) women and helps them to gain better footing in society?

And if society treated us all equally, would my internal feelings be enough to still make me want to transition?

Just a curious moral and intellectual struggle I've been engaging with recently... wondering about other people's thoughts and conclusions, or if you've questioned these things yourself and where it has led.

No I know that I'm Trans and that because I have sex dysphoria and I do think about gender critically and do not try to relate transitioning with power structures as far as thinking that I should transition because being a woman sucks. I am a man because when I think about my body and my mind and everything about me that's what I am. Political transsexualism hurts more than it helps people who are trans and gender noncomforming.  Women do have a lot of forces that work against them and I lived as a woman for a majority of my life so far so I internalized a lot of that stuff and know where women stand in issues, but I don't consider myself a feminist and never did. Feminist politics never catered to me as a poc person in an lgbt space who was poor but striving in the academic field.

Think about it like this: If you had the choice to never want children (I don't in any circumstance) and want to dress as you like while fighting for your rights to be paid equally but have no social or physical dysphoria you are most likely not trans. I say most likely because some people don't understand the nature of dysphoric feelings. Not just feeling uncomfortable about gender standards, but feeling alienated from being a woman and female. Having a deep down disassociation with being refereed to as a woman not because of gender roles, but because you know that you aren't a woman.

Transitioning gives you a place of power, but honestly you don't just wake up one day and start oppressing people. You have subtle power over people right now and don't express it in your day to day life. Fighting against sexism is something that lots of men do. Patriarchy is the problem, and how we use that as a failsafe to guard men's actions as a whole within sexism. Being aware of your place of power while transitioning can still be important to you. Knowing what things feminism are fighting for and fighting alongside women can be important.

I think politically transitioning to give a better voice to trans people will wear you down if you really aren't transgender. I know discourse lately is all about breaking down gender lines and fighting for trans rights, but I think it leads people to believe they can identify as a gender to throw away or gain power. Being a man to me isn't about power, it's about being who I truly am without being scared of myself anymore. I still research LGBT studies pertaining to black people while giving space for women to talk about the issues they need.

Here is some reading from a really good tumblr
http://helpfultransinfo.tumblr.com/tags
The best stuff is the
http://quietvoiceofreason.tumblr.com/post/84993440234/raeltran-psysomatics-nowyoukno-source-for
http://toplioncub.tumblr.com/post/55030967558/gender-social-dysphoria-vs-sex-dysphoria
http://genderpoliceman.tumblr.com/post/37470816879/some-questions-which-helped-me-when-i-was-questioning

Nope. In my case, it's got absolutely nothing to do with wanting male privilege, or of trying to break free from some internalised perception of women being inferior. If men were socially, economically and physically inferior to women, I'd still identify strongly with being male. Because that's just how the gender identity section of my brain is wired.

In the eyes of many gender therapists and GICs, a potential FtM presenting with a desire to transition mainly so that they could enjoy male privilege would ring alarm bells. So whilst it may well be a valid part of your experience, it isn't generally accepted as being a valid reason for transitioning in its own right.

For many of us, having experienced female disadvantage at some point in our lives has made us more aware of feminist issues, and perhaps more sensitive to making sure we're not part of the problem.

I'm with FTMDiaries. My problem is having a body map, that doesn't match my body. Society is just backlash stuff.

Quote from: LordKAT on May 30, 2014, 08:16:53 PM
I'm with FTMDiaries. My problem is having a body map, that doesn't match my body. Society is just backlash stuff.

Ditto. That's actually how I figured out for myself that I didn't want to transition just for male privilege - it's the anatomical mismatch that bothers me the most. The patriarchal society oppresses men too, so by transitioning you basically replace female oppression with male. It's further complicated for me as I am not white, so I don't see myself gaining much socially even as a man.

No.

Gender roles have nothing to do with the fact that my body does not feel like it belongs to me. After over a year of testosterone therapy, I don't feel such a strong disconnect anymore, which is a relief. It's still there, but it's not nearly as severe, and it's something I can ignore most of the time instead of being under constant stress from it. Even if we lived in a society where women were seen as powerful and men were seen as weak, I would still never be a woman. I would be an unusual man, but I would be a man nonetheless.

We live in a borderline rural part of New England - won't get more specific than that. Everyone is accepted here. I wasn't pressured to act female. We don't have solid gender roles here as it is. We're allowed to exist as individuals. Uniqueness is celebrated and encouraged. I isolated myself socially (which was quite easy - I was homeschooled) because I didn't connect with others easily. I had no siblings or young family members, just a few friends - a couple of guys and a couple of tomboy girls. Most of my time growing up, especially as a teenager, was spent exploring the woods. Even when I was in the woods for days on end, only coming home long enough to eat and sleep, I knew who I was; and there are no gender roles in the woods.

Quote from: pianoforte on May 30, 2014, 03:25:20 PM
Just wondering if any other trans-guys have felt that in some part your gender identity is a result of sociological forces.

Not me. 

I don't care about sociological issues or "male privilege" or any of that ilk.  My issues are body-related.  I didn't wake up one day and "realise" that I was trans*.  I have known that my body was incongruent with my mind since I was 4 years old.

Hope you guys don't mind a girl interfering here? Looking at the question from a MtF viewpoint I did a lot of thinking about this topic before replying. I have always considered myself unfortunate to be born the wrong sex so transition was necessary for me so society didn't guide me in that aspect. As for the OPs question (which I thought was very good) I am on the opposite spectrum. After a life long career of making life and death decisions I am very glad to take a sort of back seat position in life now. So I guess what I am trying to say is I am giving UP power and very willingly. I have made enough hard decisions for four or five lifetimes and gladly concede it. I fully understand what this means as far as social and relationship issue's and the loss of male privilege. I think it will be so nice to have someone else in the drivers seat now with me relegated to a more of a support position. Hope this makes some kind of sense and is pertinent to the OPs topic. 

I'm with the other guys.
Although, in a way, I guess I'm transitioning for power since being who I am and being happy with myself is power. Much more power than society could ever give me regardless of what gender I am. As for society, pfff. As if I'd let anyone or anything stand in my way regardless of anyone's gender.
Which is a nicer version of what I reminded my mother of when she had the nerve to ask me this.

Quote from: Edge on May 31, 2014, 08:37:53 AM
I'm with the other guys.
Although, in a way, I guess I'm transitioning for power since being who I am and being happy with myself is power. Much more power than society could ever give me regardless of what gender I am. As for society, pfff. As if I'd let anyone or anything stand in my way regardless of anyone's gender.
Which is a nicer version of what I reminded my mother of when she had the nerve to ask me this.

I agree. You get more power being yourself instead of living up to societies cis standards.

This is something I had to work through myself... I actually had a behavior health nurse try to talk to me about my feminism... and how she thinks I just need to find my "female" voice. That that was why I felt I was transgender. Sent me for a brief mind eff, but I'm all the better for it I suppose. Because I had to think to myself.. "Is this what I am doing?" I was raised with a not so great view and mentality surrounding women, but now consider myself an avid feminist--- and avid male feminist. 

It took me a long time to heal my relationship with women, but this had little bearing on my gender in the end. As others have said, I aim to heal the vast chasm between my mind and body. To see myself once and for all when I look into a mirror, and that others will see me for myself. That is all really.

I don't even see being trans as a potential way to gain those things anyway... considering our lack of human rights in most places.

Pianoforte -YES.

Considering these points are part of the reason it took me more than 10 years after realizing I was genderqueer to decide I needed to and it was ok for me to transition.
I determined that the societal bonuses of being perceived as male were not what was driving me. I'm glad to have done so much reflecting on these issues, as I think it will continue to help me relate to a wider variety of people and be more aware of my own biases.

No. Not only is dysphoria a very physical thing for me - surgery and hormones have done much more to remove a disturbing feeling of disconnect than years of attempted "acceptance" - but several factors while growing up gave me a terrible impression of men. Certainly not the kind of person I would WANT to be. That's something I'm still dealing with.

No. If anything I think extremely highly of and I'm slightly honored to have been born female first to understand the pain they have to endure. Me being trans is an unfortunate instance of my life that has nothing to do with how I feel about either gender, but how I feel about myself. If I wanted to prove I was as good as a man as a woman, I'd prove it. I wouldn't cross dress to prove a point. The best voices are made when they come from the inside not what you see on the outside.

Quote from: StirfriedKraut on May 31, 2014, 11:01:10 PM
No. If anything I think extremely highly of and I'm slightly honored to have been born female first to understand the pain they have to endure. Me being trans is an unfortunate instance of my life that has nothing to do with how I feel about either gender, but how I feel about myself. If I wanted to prove I was as good as a man as a woman, I'd prove it. I wouldn't cross dress to prove a point. The best voices are made when they come from the inside not what you see on the outside.

Very well-said. I could say the same about a lot of posts here, but this is a great point that hasn't been brought up yet.

I agree with everyone who said it is body-related.

If I wanted to reclaim any power I felt I'd lost from a patriarchal society, and I truly felt I was female, I would do it by being a bad ass woman, not by transitioning. And frankly, I wish I could be a cis woman, and not have transsexualism, because dysphoria blows and hormones and surgeries are so expensive lol. But this is just how it is, nothing's going to make it go away because I am strongly of the camp it's biological.

I also agree it's body-related.

However, if you are worried that transitioning will make you into a misogynistic jerk, I can safely say the answer is no. You will still be you. Hormones do not make people into jerks unless they already had that tendency.

I thought I'd throw out a somewhat controversial perspective. When it comes down to it, I transitioned for what you would call male privilege. I went from being perceived as a butch lesbian and being treated like garbage, to being treated with respect and reaping the benefits that come along with being perceived as a straight man. In the past, if asked, I would give the standard spiel about a mismatch between my brain and my body. However, I know, if I'm being honest with myself, that if we lived in an equal society, I have doubts that transitioning would have ever crossed my mind.

I think that many people, including professionals, downplay the impact that socialization has upon us. I don't think a significant number of trans people would fall into this category, but people like myself do exist. I think in the overwhelming majority of cases that the origin is biological, but it's naive to pretend that there are never social and environmental factors involved. Human behavior is complex.

Quote from: CrunchyPeanutButter on June 01, 2014, 03:26:10 AM
I thought I'd throw out a somewhat controversial perspective. When it comes down to it, I transitioned for what you would call male privilege. I went from being perceived as a butch lesbian and being treated like garbage, to being treated with respect and reaping the benefits that come along with being perceived as a straight man. In the past, if asked, I would give the standard spiel about a mismatch between my brain and my body. However, I know, if I'm being honest with myself, that if we lived in an equal society, I have doubts that transitioning would have ever crossed my mind.

I think that many people, including professionals, downplay the impact that socialization has upon us. I don't think a significant number of trans people would fall into this category, but people like myself do exist. I think in the overwhelming majority of cases that the origin is biological, but it's naive to pretend that there are never social and environmental factors involved. Human behavior is complex.

That's great that stuff got socially better for you after you transitioned.

Though, for a lot of us, even if we are straight we end up looking or sounding gay. I am not sure if jumping from female to (perceived) gay male is a step up in all situations.  So in general it would be probably be risky to transition with the assumption you will be perceived as straight, because it might never happen.

Quote from: CrunchyPeanutButter on June 01, 2014, 03:26:10 AM
I thought I'd throw out a somewhat controversial perspective. When it comes down to it, I transitioned for what you would call male privilege. I went from being perceived as a butch lesbian and being treated like garbage, to being treated with respect and reaping the benefits that come along with being perceived as a straight man. In the past, if asked, I would give the standard spiel about a mismatch between my brain and my body. However, I know, if I'm being honest with myself, that if we lived in an equal society, I have doubts that transitioning would have ever crossed my mind.

I think that many people, including professionals, downplay the impact that socialization has upon us. I don't think a significant number of trans people would fall into this category, but people like myself do exist. I think in the overwhelming majority of cases that the origin is biological, but it's naive to pretend that there are never social and environmental factors involved. Human behavior is complex.

I'm glad transitioning helped you, and I certainly don't doubt the inherent power involved in being a man in a patriarchy. I don't think it's naive to say that social or environmental factors have anything to do with transitioning on a personal level.

Coming to terms with power exchange while transitioning is something many trans people examine I think. I certainly never thought that social things aren't involved in my dysphoria, but environment certainly has nothing to do with being trans. If the whole world were gender neutral I'd still feel uncomfortable about my secondary sex characteristics.  I'm kind of uncomfortable trying to second guess anyone's reasoning for being trans especially someone who is famous or a professional because many trans people are sort of taught to give a very broad generalized narrative that might not even fit themselves.