Quote from: CrunchyPeanutButter on June 01, 2014, 03:26:10 AM
I thought I'd throw out a somewhat controversial perspective. When it comes down to it, I transitioned for what you would call male privilege. I went from being perceived as a butch lesbian and being treated like garbage, to being treated with respect and reaping the benefits that come along with being perceived as a straight man. In the past, if asked, I would give the standard spiel about a mismatch between my brain and my body. However, I know, if I'm being honest with myself, that if we lived in an equal society, I have doubts that transitioning would have ever crossed my mind.

I think that many people, including professionals, downplay the impact that socialization has upon us. I don't think a significant number of trans people would fall into this category, but people like myself do exist. I think in the overwhelming majority of cases that the origin is biological, but it's naive to pretend that there are never social and environmental factors involved. Human behavior is complex.

I don't know why anyone would ever make such a radical change JUST for society.  I'm having a hard time believing you are a trans man and not just a radical feminist trying to prove a point or something.  Especially given that this is your only post on a newly made profile. 

Didn't a butch woman try living socially as a man for awhile as as social experiment and end up having herself committed because of the psychological toll it took on her? For both trans and cis people, it's difficult pretending to be a gender one isn't. I can't understand why anyone would willingly do that to themselves for people who don't matter.

Quote from: Edge on June 01, 2014, 12:08:04 PM
Didn't a butch woman try living socially as a man for awhile as as social experiment and end up having herself committed because of the psychological toll it took on her? For both trans and cis people, it's difficult pretending to be a gender one isn't. I can't understand why anyone would willingly do that to themselves for people who don't matter.

Yeah I linked the info about it, but here's the video of it:
The woman wasn't thinking that she was trans, she was a radical feminist who was very critical about men and transphobic for a long time. She found out that it's not just about socialization and that the same things that made people see her as a butch woman made people think she was a gay man when she was doing the experiment. I haven't seen anything much else from her but I heard she's become more moderate in her writings about transgender people. Political transitioning hurt her very deeply.

Thanks to campanella for the research link list - very well-thought out and detailed post, and I appreciate that.

I want to clarify that in my case this is not the only, or even a driving factor in my trans identity. I have always had body dysphoria (since puberty, but with many moments prior to that), which I have suppressed for years and years. Many of the reasons I have been suppressing it have been social, and only in the past year have I been blessed to be surrounded with people who send the message "it's okay to be yourself." It is in this time that I have become a feminist (I always believed in equality but I didn't always understand inequality).

I feel like it's somewhat appropriate that after I suppressed myself for social reasons (lack of finances, lack of social and emotional support, benefits provided by living as female such as my partner's affections, etc) ... I ended up reawakening my inner self after changing my social surroundings. Being around transguys (for the first time in my life!) and feminists and other people who believe that an individual's identity is important has had me, for the first time in years, caring about my identity.

I'm 25 and still in college - sort of an arrested development thing, I guess. I needed those extra years to work because I couldn't afford to live. And because sometimes I didn't always want to.

For years, I felt that everything I felt about my identity was impossible, and so I decided to live for other people. My chosen career path is in social services, my body is something I make available to my partner, my dreams have always been to make other people's lives better, to help them be happy. I had forgotten about making myself happy. I had forgotten about any of that.

While I am questioning myself and my motivations at this time, I feel like I already know the answers. I feel like I am afraid to admit them to myself because I've been hiding so long. And because my partner, who knows everything (except that I am on this forum), asked me if I'm completely certain I am not just responding to social constructs.

One last time, for his benefit, I decided to consider that. But it doesn't seem to be the case.

I think I might throw that question back at him with regard to either staying or not staying in a relationship with me if I transition.

Also thank you to crunchypeanutbutter, who may only have one post because he does not wish to reveal his identity... honesty is important in discussions like this, and that is really what I was requesting.

I feel like everything is a factor in everything, and everything is complicated, and that's probably why I generally fear decision making and avoid it and do nothing whenever possible.

Quote from: ChrisRokk on June 01, 2014, 04:37:28 AM
That's great that stuff got socially better for you after you transitioned.

Though, for a lot of us, even if we are straight we end up looking or sounding gay. I am not sure if jumping from female to (perceived) gay male is a step up in all situations.  So in general it would be probably be risky to transition with the assumption you will be perceived as straight, because it might never happen.

'Sounding gay' was definitely one of the concerns I had, because I know it's a gamble and there's no way to predict how your voice will ultimately sound. I did have to consciously alter some of my speech patterns, or at least I became hyperaware of them. I agree that it's not a huge step up on the social ladder to go to being perceived as a gay male. Race would be another factor influencing how far up you move.

Quote from: campenella on June 01, 2014, 11:00:50 AM
I'm glad transitioning helped you, and I certainly don't doubt the inherent power involved in being a man in a patriarchy. I don't think it's naive to say that social or environmental factors have anything to do with transitioning on a personal level.

Coming to terms with power exchange while transitioning is something many trans people examine I think. I certainly never thought that social things aren't involved in my dysphoria, but environment certainly has nothing to do with being trans. If the whole world were gender neutral I'd still feel uncomfortable about my secondary sex characteristics.  I'm kind of uncomfortable trying to second guess anyone's reasoning for being trans especially someone who is famous or a professional because many trans people are sort of taught to give a very broad generalized narrative that might not even fit themselves.

It's certainly a unique experience. I think people would be far more empathetic if they had the chance to experience life on the other side of things when it comes to oppression in general.

Quote from: wheat thins are delicious on June 01, 2014, 11:35:36 AM
I don't know why anyone would ever make such a radical change JUST for society.  I'm having a hard time believing you are a trans man and not just a radical feminist trying to prove a point or something.  Especially given that this is your only post on a newly made profile.

This is an example of why I tend to lie about my reasons for transitioning. I primarily lurk on forums, but this topic prompted me to comment because I almost feel invisible. I'm stealth, so I don't really have anyone to discuss these kinds of things with. I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself. I don't see why you think it's outrageous that someone would transition in order to lessen the anxiety that comes with being visibly 'different' and the treatment/harassment that comes with it, especially for people who live in conservative areas. In my case, my anxiety was becoming crippling, so I did what I felt I needed to do. I live in an area where everything (including surgery) is covered by insurance, so it wasn't as difficult a process as it is for some. I don't think a single post on a forum is really going to be used to fuel someone's political agenda.

Quote from: CrunchyPeanutButter on June 01, 2014, 02:57:16 PM

This is an example of why I tend to lie about my reasons for transitioning. I primarily lurk on forums, but this topic prompted me to comment because I almost feel invisible. I'm stealth, so I don't really have anyone to discuss these kinds of things with. I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself. I don't see why you think it's outrageous that someone would transition in order to lessen the anxiety that comes with being visibly 'different' and the treatment/harassment that comes with it, especially for people who live in conservative areas. In my case, my anxiety was becoming crippling, so I did what I felt I needed to do. I live in an area where everything (including surgery) is covered by insurance, so it wasn't as difficult a process as it is for some. I don't think a single post on a forum is really going to be used to fuel someone's political agenda.

I think it's because you have transitioned under a rare circumstance and your body is your  own choice but I don't think pushing the idea that transitioning is environmental or social for anyone but yourself is going to be taken well in any forum. You did what you needed to do, and it sounds like social dysphoria to me, but that's not my call. It's not my place to tell someone if they are trans or not, but I disagree that people would feel different if they had the chance to live in someone else's shoes. Many situations aren't comparable and I wouldn't wish many situations especially dysphoria or racism on other people.

I feel really uncomfortable with 'ladder of oppression/privilege' sorts of discussion because there are things many people cannot change and it's kind of borderline bootstraps. I'm glad your surgeries were covered.

Sure I would want have male privilige, and general privilige if I could, but it not why I transition and I think these priviligedes should be for anyone.
transitioning I somethimes got male priviliges but then I have a great lack of cisprivilige on the other hand which I personally,
(depends a bit on your situation) for me is worse than being female.

I can give some exempels: a female have problems traveling to male dominating countrys, but I both have troubles traveling to male dominating countrys AND anti-LGBT countrys.

a female also own less money, since I can't change my gender ID I would also have a great risk of owning less money. And a female can also be dismissed of getting a job, but a transperson got the biggest unemployment rate and theres no laws to protect transgender people who is discriminated because the law for "sex discrimination" do not include gender identity or expression.
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Okay I may talk to much, but its my view. I don't know if the life have made some choices, probably it have I think its healthy to learn from your life, and when I transitioned I really wanted to keep remembering alot of the things I had learned in the past, it really usefull specially if you want to do activism or work with anti-discrimination stuff.
I have somethimes worried on being priviliged and forgetting these discrimination points and turning blind to the issues. some things have got more easy and I got more priviliged but theres also many points where I still get reminded of the binary gender roles for men and women just from another perspective, when I before was "bullied" for wearing boyish clothing, people now comment on how femenine I am ex.
you may recieave some previlige on transition, you may also lose some, but you dont atomatically turn into the "white priviliged woman hating guy" if you dont want to, you also have a choice on how you want to live your life and how you want to thread others.

Quote from: CrunchyPeanutButter on June 01, 2014, 02:57:16 PM
This is an example of why I tend to lie about my reasons for transitioning. I primarily lurk on forums, but this topic prompted me to comment because I almost feel invisible.

Coming to a transgender support forum and - with your first post - talking about how you only transitioned so you could benefit from male privilege is like cutting your own legs off, then being upset when the people who lost their legs in accidents won't take you seriously. Pretending you have a medical condition so you can reap the benefits is nothing short of insulting to those of us who actually have to deal with it. Not only is it insulting, but it actively hurts us. We struggle every day for society to take us seriously so we can stop having to hear "it's all in your head" or "you're mentally ill," or even being killed. Stories like yours only make things worse for us.

Then you have the insurance issue. Do you have any idea what the consequences of that could be for those of us who are struggling to get our insurance companies to cover even a little bit of our medical bills? If insurance companies find out there are people out there like yourself who are pretending to be transgender so they can benefit from it, we could all be denied coverage because there's no way to tell if someone is lying or not.

Quote from: campenella on June 01, 2014, 04:41:56 PM
I think it's because you have transitioned under a rare circumstance and your body is your  own choice but I don't think pushing the idea that transitioning is environmental or social for anyone but yourself is going to be taken well in any forum. You did what you needed to do, and it sounds like social dysphoria to me, but that's not my call. It's not my place to tell someone if they are trans or not, but I disagree that people would feel different if they had the chance to live in someone else's shoes. Many situations aren't comparable and I wouldn't wish many situations especially dysphoria or racism on other people.

I feel really uncomfortable with 'ladder of oppression/privilege' sorts of discussion because there are things many people cannot change and it's kind of borderline bootstraps. I'm glad your surgeries were covered.

I said that I was an outlier. I'm posting about a different experience that a small minority of us have that fits in with what the OP was asking about. I'm not 'pushing' anything.

By being more empathetic, I meant that people would be less inclined to treat people poorly based on X trait if they experienced firsthand what that felt like. Think of it like an experiment where everyone is able to magically swap positions with someone else for a day. They would come back with a better understanding. Sorry for not being clear on that the first time. I didn't mean that it would have any effect on people's dysphoria.

Quote from: Declan. on June 01, 2014, 05:31:05 PM
Coming to a transgender support forum and - with your first post - talking about how you only transitioned so you could benefit from male privilege is like cutting your own legs off, then being upset when the people who lost their legs in accidents won't take you seriously. Pretending you have a medical condition so you can reap the benefits is nothing short of insulting to those of us who actually have to deal with it. Not only is it insulting, but it actively hurts us. We struggle every day for society to take us seriously so we can stop having to hear "it's all in your head" or "you're mentally ill," or even being killed. Stories like yours only make things worse for us.

Then you have the insurance issue. Do you have any idea what the consequences of that could be for those of us who are struggling to get our insurance companies to cover even a little bit of our medical bills? If insurance companies find out there are people out there like yourself who are pretending to be transgender so they can benefit from it, we could all be denied coverage because there's no way to tell if someone is lying or not.

I didn't pretend to be anything. I stuck with the typical narrative to explain it to most people in my life because it was easier, but I never lied to any healthcare professionals. At no point in time did I tell a psychologist or psychiatrist that I had physical dysphoria. I told them about my long standing social issues and the severe anxiety that resulted from it. For them and for me, that was enough of a reason to follow through with transitioning. Keep in mind that this was after years of unsuccessful therapy and discussing the topic extensively. I knew that I would be treated better being perceived as male and that it would improve my life (which it has). I'm not the reason why access to medical treatment for trans people is so poor in most places.

crunchypeanutbutter I'm not arguing with you on your story or transition. I agree and disagree with you on points you've expressed. Your first post said that it's naive to think environment and social stuff doesn't have to do with being transgender and then you went on later to say that it was from a personal perspective.  This was after I said that we cannot assume anyone's status or stories nor should we question people in a public light. All I'm telling you is that those words resonated with people and that many people will disagree with you on many forums about that sort of sentiment.  If you took offense to anything on that front I'm sorry. I don't really have a traditional story either.

I genuinely am happy for you to have found a path and that you had the resources to deal with things. You have no obligation to tell anyone about your path. This is a complex discussion so knowing how many people in this thread have replied to you and the op with respect and information I hope we can all continue doing the same. I see your point of view, even if I don't agree with how you've phrased some of your arguments. Many poc trans people aren't thinking about moving up, but being othered by two societies in diffeent ways. There isn't really a scale of more or less overall, but in what areas. I don't agree about making someone live my life for a day to see oppression because that won't help to understand anything: I live a normal life mostly and microagressions are harder to see if you aren't used to them. I just hope people can see more positive change and representation of trans people

QuoteJust wondering if any other trans-guys have felt that in some part your gender identity is a result of sociological forces.

Never. And I'm not a stereotypically manly man either. In my relationship I'm the "wife". I do the cooking and the cleaning, and when we have kids I'll be the one staying home with them, etc.. There really aren't any gender roles that I'm trying to subvert or escape through my transition. In my experience, being transgendered has absolutely nothing to do with the way the world treats me. The fact that the world sometimes perceives me as a girl is an issue, though it takes a backseat to how I see myself in the mirror.

If the gender roles were completely reversed and women were treated the way men are treated, I would still transition. If I were literally the only person left on earth, stranded on a desert island, I would still have a very solid understanding that my physical body does not match who I am inside. It's a diagnosable, medically verifiable condition, and transitioning should have nothing more to do with social roles than getting surgery to remove a tumor does.

It's already so incredibly difficult for those of us who have struggled with dysphoria our entire lives to get our families and others to understand that this is a real medical issue that kills people, to not believe that we're just doing it for the "perks." There can be thousands of us explaining the fact that this is a medical condition, and they will still point out the handful of people who openly admit to doing it for "male privilege." It's every bit as harmful to us as the "I chose to be a lesbian because of the patriarchy, but I would otherwise be straight" crowd is to the lesbian community.