The 99% of clinically sane men you know are .001% of the majority

Ok gotta go. Seriously. Been fun

Quote from: kelly_aus on June 04, 2014, 09:53:12 AM
I'd comment that 99% of the clinically sane men I know wouldn't want to trade, but you'd simply ignore it.

Some people do not like to listen if they fail to get the answer they want....

As a cismale, money, fast cars(classic muscle cars only please), street bikes, were on my short list.. maybe to fit in, but still were on my list.  Cisfemales likely will never get the attraction of them as its a competitive natured thing that comes with the T.  Danica Patrick, Shirley Muldowney, and the like aside, the majority of ciswomen would rather buy interior  accessories for a '67 396 Chevelle with an Muncie M22 Rockcrusher, 4.56, 12bolt power train than actually build it.  It isn't a flaw, its genetic, trans or not.

Quote from: ytxwmb on June 04, 2014, 10:05:57 AM
Some people do not like to listen if they fail to get the answer they want....

Or they're a troll. I'm gonna go with troll.

Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 09:09:06 AM
If I was to substitute my OP with a "female privilege" topic and a tumblr link to images of super models, lush hauls, makeup techniques, puppy's, picket fence houses, etc. and then prefaced what you wrote above:

"Not all women want those things. Sure beauty and looks are appealing for some people..."

Do you see how preposterous that sounds? "some" ??

How is it preposterous? It's not preposterous in the slightest.

I agree that there is a small sub-section of the female population that focuses entirely on their looks and on material things. In many cases, they've been taught that their looks are their best asset... and the best way to get a man who's wealthy enough to pay for the lifestyle they want. But that's a very small minority of women. And that small minority tends to go for the small minority of men that includes that Escobar guy. They're fishing for each other in their own specialised pool. But just because a handful of women want to be pneumatic Barbie-clone gold-diggers (which they are perfectly entitled to do if they so wish) does not mean that this is something that applies to women in general. Just like Escobar doesn't represent men in general.

The majority of women just do the best they can to get through each day. They work, they pay their taxes, they might raise families, they do other things too. Whilst doing these things, they may try to keep as healthy as possible, and many of them might try to look as good as possible whilst doing it, particularly if they've been raised to believe that looks are important. But that's not generally their main focus: mainly, they're just trying to live a normal life, y'know? Aren't we all?

I urge you to watch this TED talk by Lizzie Velasquez, and then come tell me how preposterous it is to suggest that some women aren't all about their beauty and their looks:

Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 09:09:06 AM
The fact is, what I posted will have rapport with a majority of cis men. Not just 'some'.

Perhaps in the circles in which you've moved, but there's a whole big world out there, and men come in all sorts of varieties.

Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 09:09:06 AM
I do get it with the microcosm here and this particular trans cross-section will have a different opinion from cis males. I will admit I should have been more understanding about that. Apologies if I offended.

That's something that can be easily overlooked: the fact that we FtM guys were raised as girls and many of us were forced to socialise as girls, with all the restrictions and hang-ups that come with that.

Damn it's embarassing when someone quotes a post in the short time between me posting it and then deleting it.. 

Images of things this person covets isn't privilege.  Anyone, of any gender or race can do this equally with things they covet.

Male privilege refers to things like not having your credibility challenge simply because of your anatomy.  Walking to your car alone in late a night with barely any more anxiety or fear as would have in broad day.  It is things that simply are for one group that isn't for other groups.

Images of desired things, no matter how typical or stereotypical or misogynistic, are not privilege.

Quote from: Paula Christine on June 04, 2014, 10:11:27 AM
As a cismale, money, fast cars(classic muscle cars only please), street bikes, were on my short list.. maybe to fit in, but still were on my list.  Cisfemales likely will never get the attraction of them as its a competitive natured thing that cines with the T.  Danica Patrick, Shirley Muldowney, and the like aside, the majority of ciswomen would rather buy interior  accessories for a '67 396 Chevelle with an Muncie M22 Rockcrusher, 4.56, 12bolt power train than actually build it.  It isn't a flaw, its genetic, trans or not.

I Don't think saying its genetic is true or fair Because in a way, you drawing a line down society and placing people on one side or another based upon a few singles traits, when people with those traits wont belong there. And will feel wrong insignificant or like they don't matter.

So its personal this for those who want it, that for those who want that. you draw the line by all means, but the side of that line on which to stand, is each and every persons choice. The problems we have in society is that we make assumptions of what a person is like in a different area because of what they are like one or two separate areas. Which is wrong. Eg because being male and liking pink, doesn't mean your gay. people assume it regardless, because if you were straight you wouldn't admit to liking it because, you wouldn't want people to think your gay.

And this happens so many times in so many areas, its hilarious.

Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 08:13:50 AM
The thing is, I surf a lot of forums. I know how people act on forums. The males in here don't act like the males on the other forums.

So something is suspect.

I'm not being sexist, I'm not denying the obvious either.

Your ideal of manhood is very shallow. I know some very caring men who are not all about money,sex,and power. And to be honest I find it downright hypocritical to call out the ftm's on this site for not acting like a stereotypical male. And your not even acting like a stereotypical female. I think you should look in the mirror first before you start trying to tell a person how they should act!

Quote from: kelly_aus on June 04, 2014, 10:30:20 AM
Damn it's embarassing when someone quotes a post in the short time between me posting it and then deleting it.. 

But what they quoted was right, maybe a bit to confrontational for your liking. but You did point out what a stereotype was,
a person own perspective of what something is like through their own experiences.

Quote from: Heather on June 04, 2014, 10:42:40 AM
Your ideal of manhood is very shallow. I know some very caring men who are not all about money,sex,and power. And to be honest I find it downright hypocritical to call out the ftm's on this site for not acting like a stereotypical male. And your not even acting like a stereotypical female. I think you should look in the mirror first before you start trying to tell a person how they should act!

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,166362.msg1441834.html#msg1441834

I think that male privilege is expressed by hot cars, hot babes, etc or at least the fantasy of that.  It is all wrapped up in confidence, independence and power.  I have had times in my life when I made a lot of money and had a lot of toys.  For me it was compensation for feeling like I was a fake and a fraud.

For most of the dudes I knew and hung with, it was just the way things were and also the way they should be.  Women were arm candy, not partners, or even really friends outside of the bedroom.

F***ing made me crazy, and eventually the money and toys all went away.  So did the friends.  Men who have "made it" in business are to some degree sociopathic if not psychopathic. There is some pretty interesting new research along these lines.  Since the success and power that flows from this is the projected ideal, lots of men buy into it.  The more disturbing bit of male privilege I think is more subtle, it is the unspoken assumption of the fundamental inferiority of women at the intellectual and emotional level.

That was something I thought a lot about when beginning to transition.  Was I ready to deal with the almost automatic assumption of less intelligence, and less competence when I began to present as a woman?  Can I deal with the mild denigration that goes with being female?  The answer to both is yes I can deal with it, but no I don't have to accept it.

I am a girl, I am powerful and competent, and I am also loving and feminine.  Maybe that is a legacy T-girls can bring to the table.  We do not have to be invisible, and we can help each other and our cis sisters to go there too. 

Thanks for the thread,
Julie

Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 10:47:33 AM
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,166362.msg1441834.html#msg1441834

To be absolutely fair what did you think was gonna happen when you tried to define who other people are? The reaction will be negative unless they 100% agree with your definition and surely you didn't expect people to.

Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 09:50:11 AM
Yeah your right. These immature movers and shakers are cramping up my image, yo.

Anyway I'll leave you men alone. Gotta run back to my little bubble. Been fun.

"movers and shakers"? You must be defining these differently than I do, this equates with lusting after power, woman, and cars.

Quote from: Heather on June 04, 2014, 10:42:40 AM
Your ideal of manhood is very shallow. I know some very caring men who are not all about money,sex,and power. And to be honest I find it downright hypocritical to call out the ftm's on this site for not acting like a stereotypical male. And your not even acting like a stereotypical female. I think you should look in the mirror first before you start trying to tell a person how they should act!

Really?? Of all the males you know, how many are very caring?  How many are the knuckle-dragging, booty-oogling, TimAllen-tool-time-grunting, football/basketball/baseball/hockey-loving hardware freaks?

Quote from: Evelyn K link=topic=166361.msg1441796#
msg1441796 date=1401890946
If I was to substitute my OP with a "female privilege" topic and a tumblr link to images of super models, lush hauls, makeup techniques, puppy's, picket fence houses, etc. and then prefaced what you wrote above:

"Not all women want those things. Sure beauty and looks are appealing for some people..."

Again I will say some, not all. Sure life is easier (in some respects) being beautiful (not that I would know). People appreciate different forms of beauty. What you see as beautiful may not be the same as me or others here. I happen to find beauty in everything and everyone. Even people not considered attractive by "societal norms" because it is more than looks. Sure looks can open some doors, just as power and money can open others.

You seem to be obsessing with the far end of the spectrum for your masculine/feminine ideals. Sure for me I want to look pretty and I love make-up. And who doesn't love puppies (or Kitties)? But I also love Hockey, Knives, Comics and Action movies. Masculine and feminine perceptions blur into what makes a person who they are. We are individuals. Which is why I state "some" I will not say all or most because I don't know them. Some seems reasonable.

If you want cis male comparisons my little brother loves Sports. He is a typical "jock" former college athlete. He loves working out. Doesn't care about fancy cars or watches. He loves puppies and romantic comedies and nice smells (Lotions and Candles), he would look at that tumblr page and go "Meh... ok"

Life is a buffet. You can't look at the "male" line and the "female" line and say "Men have to take everything from this line but nothing from the female line. And the same for women we don't need to take everything from the female line. We are allowed to pick what we want from every available option. That is why life is amazing. We aren't clones or carbon copies. We make choices and live our lives picking up little pieces from everywhere.

Quote from: Evelyn K on June 04, 2014, 10:47:33 AM
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,166362.msg1441834.html#msg1441834

You really can't see why you stirred up a hornets nest? Let's put it this way you've been very condescending with the posts you've made on this thread.

Quote from: Paula Christine on June 04, 2014, 10:58:52 AM
Really?? Of all the males you know, how many are very caring?  How many are the knuckle-dragging, booty-oogling, TimAllen-tool-time-grunting, football/basketball/baseball/hockey-loving hardware freaks?

My father first of all! My best friend for the past 15 years makes two my uncles. Do I need to list more?

That's three of how many, percentage-wise?  Of the number of cis males I know in my life,
family, friends and coworkers.. three wouldn't even register a number..  Airplanes, boats, cars, bikes, houses, 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th wives.. -most-   and by most, I mean 60-70% or more, fall into this category.  If they don't have them, they want them.

Quote from: Paula Christine on June 04, 2014, 10:58:52 AM
Really?? Of all the males you know, how many are very caring?  How many are the knuckle-dragging, booty-oogling, TimAllen-tool-time-grunting, football/basketball/baseball/hockey-loving hardware freaks?

Was this supposed to be sarcastic?  Lack of emoticons makes it hard to read.  The people I know are ALL a real mix of traits.  The only really into-it-for-the-blood hockey fans I know are cis-female.  The first cis-male friend I think of that would sort of fit in with Tim Allen tool time IS at the same time very caring and sensitive.

Quote from: Hayley on June 04, 2014, 11:02:00 AM
Life is a buffet. You can't look at the "male" line and the "female" line and say "Men have to take everything from this line but nothing from the female line. And the same for women we don't need to take everything from the female line. We are allowed to pick what we want from every available option. That is why life is amazing. We aren't clones or carbon copies. We make choices and live our lives picking up little pieces from everywhere.

This ^^^  Agree 100%


Erin

Evelyn is touching on something however, and it's actually a rather large hang up for me. I've had the chance to taste that life, and damn is it fun.

It's one thing to transition when you're young or miserable, but risking losing a successful upper class white male lifestyle will give anyone pause.