Pink Therapy are a UK organisation of LGBTQ.  Here are a couple of talks on non-binary issues from a recent conference.  I am hoping to train as a counsellor and am waiting to hear if I have been accepted on my MSc course, it was really inspiring for me to watch these videos!

i saw one of our members in that second video! (if they're still a member here?)

at the end, i suddenly realized how most of my life i've called people "kitten" where most other people would use gendered words like sir, dude, girl, etc... and the one who isn't a cat is called puppy...

i was also reminded of this funny episode where a guy started questioning my gender at some forum. he was asking for it rather intently, but as i didn't answer, and others came with ever more scary sounding alternatives, he agreed that "Taka" was an acceptable gender category.

Taka

Thank you for posting these clips.  There were some very interesting stats:

-  Estimated 10 - 15 % of TG population are non binary; but
-  Estimated 35% of 'normative' population i.e. non lgbtq population revealed non binary identity components

I think that it would be interesting to know why this is so divergent - is there more pressure in the tg community to express oneself as a binary?

I liked the description of gender as being "biopsychosocial" in origin as it seems to fit with my experience and reading on the subject.

Given that these presentations were to educate or to inform TG counsellors it was pleasing that they are trying to keep pace with the accelerating social change and greater awareness and expression of our individual identities.

Aisla

Wife is home from work for vacation making it hard to get presentational "full-transition" time and time on the forum (She is jealous and also is concerned about the breakdowns and triggers being associated with Susans.)

Aisla do you know what percentage of us are GQ?  I don't think we are many... just curious

I sure am glad you are on this forum and that I can think of you as a friend.  It is an honor.

Quote from: Aisla on June 12, 2014, 03:29:46 AM

I think that it would be interesting to know why this is so divergent - is there more pressure in the tg community to express oneself as a binary?

Aisla

Perceived peer pressure, real pressure, or internal pressure desperately wanting to fit in and be accepted?

At Susans, maybe none of the above, in reality, though the fit in thing affected me personally rooted in self esteem issues on my end and assumptions that were totally wrong.  Outside Susan's, maybe all of the above?  But I don't stray from my playground.... so I don't know

Quote from: Satinjoy on June 12, 2014, 01:16:52 PM

Aisla do you know what percentage of us are GQ?  I don't think we are many... just curious

I sure am glad you are on this forum and that I can think of you as a friend.  It is an honor.

Satinjoy

The presenter said that statistics were hard to find and said that further research was needed   Didn't quote any GQ statistics but if you defined a GQ person as someone who perceives a number of opposing binary and androgynous elements in their identity and mirrors this in their presentation etc then the figure may be much higher than you might think.   High fashion often combines or mixes  gendered accessories but in most cases this is in pursuit of a certain look rather than to make a statement , political or otherwise, regarding their identity.  Of course the question is how often is clothing, hair cut, makeup, accessories and mannerism consciously chosen for convenience, to be authentic, to be fashionable, to be 'attractive' or to express identity and make a gender or political statement?

The feeling is mutual.  Your friendship means just as much if not more to me.   After wandering, lost and confused, for so many years finding kindred spirits and friends on a similar road has been a real joy and my heart lifts when I see you, Julie, Ativan, Mandonlym and so many others share their insights, advice and support.  Susans is such a blessing.

Aisla

Quote from: Satinjoy on June 12, 2014, 01:20:11 PM
Perceived peer pressure, real pressure, or internal pressure desperately wanting to fit in and be accepted?

At Susans, maybe none of the above, in reality, though the fit in thing affected me personally rooted in self esteem issues on my end and assumptions that were totally wrong.  Outside Susan's, maybe all of the above?  But I don't stray from my playground.... so I don't know

Satinjoy

I often think that as TG even if we have non binary elements that we tend towards adopting the binary presentation which best reflects our overall sense of self.  Suspect this is almost tribal in that we do this for reasons such as  protection and group identity.   Presenting as anything else such as GQ, A or GF is relatively uncommon in many situations; and can be misread, cause confusion and in many cases hostility as sexual identity/preference is often inferred and folk discomfited.   Society is changing but sadly we are still not in a situation where presenting as non binary and particularly GQ is common or widely accepted/safe.

Aisla

Got to see the first video.  First, it is nice to see yet another presentation that matches what I define as my fully transitioned self.

The entire bit about passing vs authenticity is a pet peeve of mine, in the sense that FOR ME, I have no interest in passing except as a true presentation of the real me, the real center.  It is easier to be in public in a loose shirt, nails out and hair down, short goateed, and to be accepted as unique and different.  No one yet has challenged this.  Women are jealous of my clear polished nails.  As a non binary identity that is also a DES Son, it is important to me to live from the inside out, not the dysphoric driven outside in.  Yes I have the accute body dysphoria, but it is very physical for me.  The mind is not female, and not male.  I do not wish to present as other than the true center of my mind.

As a DES anomoly, I believe that my central nervous and endocrine receptor system is female, from the womb.  My presentation reflects this.  I have no desire to pretend I am other than my physical design, except of course professionally on stage where it is male roles that I do.

So it is encouraging to see others that are uniquely gifted with this multigenderal presentation.

More at another moment, interupted...

Yet I would not have the courage to present as Miss Alex does.  My presentation, socially, is quite male, but with flair.  It is my self expression, a bit different from others,  like I wear two shirts, one loose and open and the other not.  It hides my boobs.  But it also is self expression of a unique me, and I like expressing unique.

The need and desire for being binarily female when young was not there.  Erotically it was.  But the social need was simply absent.  On the male side I was driven to be accepted, in spite of the female physical programming I was born with.  So when we speak of female trapped in male body, not me.  Spirit trapped in male body, me.  Trying to pass as male, me.  Its a bit complicated.

Physically, I must have the female body.  I can live with the thing down there, no op.  But neck up, which is my wife's gift to her still, no surgery, and the necessity of seeing through to the real, the genuine.  And the tool of recognizing both genders in my face as the opposite gender which is me fluid, to validate and to sooth the facial dysphoria.  I also badly need the hormones, again, from the inside out, it is how they make me feel, and the looks are not secondary but also imperative, in the privacy of the bedroom for that full revelation.   Been a year things are changing slowly.

Socially being business aggressive I land on the male body language side.  When not threatened it goes female in body language, and alone, the body language is oddly neutral unless fully dressed.

Typically when alone with my wife, it is a thin nylon t shirt over lingerie.  It is her gift to me that she accepts this genuine presentation.  It is my gift to her that she will not see that semi see- through t shirt come off, nor the beard shaved.  And Gods gift that this actually works really well.  And it is the reality of who I am and a dream that came true for me.

All that said, GQ to me is real deal personal transsexuality, speaking only for myself as a GQ here.  And I love no holds barred real deal humanity.  Passing, for me, is like giving into societal binary requirements, binary predudicial pressures, and is as non authentic as trying to be a macho male would be.  I am encouraged greatly by all of you here in the forum, and by seeing others that look like me, and learning that I am esteemable for being who I am and being somewhat out, though not vocal too much, just being.   Who you are speaks louder than what you say.

I am Satinjoy, nails out, hair down, and true to the way I was formed in the womb.  I pray others can be helped by my stories.

God bless and Love to all here.  Newcomers and oldtimers and all gender expressions and centers included.

Be yourself, be beautiful, live...love...find the center

Quote from: Aisla on June 12, 2014, 03:29:46 AM
-  Estimated 10 - 15 % of TG population are non binary; but
-  Estimated 35% of 'normative' population i.e. non lgbtq population revealed non binary identity components

These are statistics that would seem to be tied together, but you do need to think of them as separate.
Logic tells me that, sure... as far as components are concerned, you would get roughly a third of the population somewhere in that 'middle ground'.
But do they identify as such?
10-15% of the trans community identifies as non-binary. Seems about right. Is it really right?
If you asked that same question a few years ago, the percentage would have been much lower.
There is pressure from the community to place people in a binary position or identity, that's just natural.
There is the same pressure in society in general. Who identifies as non-binary in society as a whole?
10-15% wouldn't surprise me in the least. I think the percentage of transsexuals, just the trans community overall is actually higher than the estimates that are currently used.
Those estimates usually have a disclaimer of sorts that refers to those who are closeted and may always be that way.
Society puts a lot of pressure on all of us to not be transgender.
The binary thinking in the trans community puts pressure on non-binary to be binary.

It is always easier to think you can conform people rather than disturb your own world view.
It isn't malicious in most cases, the ones who are, tend to be a little more than just vocal opponents of being trans.
This used to be true to a larger extent within the trans community towards non-binaries.
But something that I noticed when all the same sex marriage stuff was going on was the reads about the GLB and the understanding or at least acceptance in those articles.
The acceptance of the Trans Community as the general population sees it is now starting to happen as well. Has a ways to go...

The key to all of this is the acceptance part of it.
Not only is it the most important part of the entire movement of equal rights, it also has some interesting side effects.
It does allow for more people to come out of the closets.
It allows for a better understanding that there are different ways of identifying when it comes to gender.
Once this starts to happen for individuals, it generally continues to grow and they self educate.
People just do that pretty naturally, something becomes of interest, so they look into it and educate themselves.
Right now, there is far more acceptance of not only trans as a community, but within the community, an acceptance of non-binary.
Think about how those two statistics are really telling you two different things....
As a community, the trans has always been pretty tight knit as a community.
We all have to be a little more cautious than most other communities, especially when dealing with society in general.
Within the community, that caution extended to non-binary as something different, hard to understand.
I think acceptance within the community has grown quite a bit as the trans community is looking towards equal rights in general.
Non-binaries are a part of this as much as anyone else is...
Acceptance of non-binary has grown as the community bands together to fight for equal rights.
Side effect for non-binaries comes not only from society in general, but within the community.
The statistic of components... Sounds like an awareness of sorts to me.
Acceptance and education or informational awareness at the very least. That goes a long ways.
I wonder if we are the last group of people who are have crawled out from under the equality bus.
It'd be nice to think that equality has finally won in this country and in others as well, only to spread to those that it hasn't... yet.

I think ahead to when the politicians, the people who are supposed to be looking out for us, come to realize that the Internet did away with borders.
It'd solve a lot of problems if the right people took charge of the huge job of running things bigger than individuals can.
They just need to find that level of acceptance and self educate and become better informed about things in general.

I see something else. Individuals who are running a little scared for various reasons here...
If you think you are, step up and look for the information you need to find the peace you're seeking.
If you do, I think you'll find a lot more willingness and ability from others to help you along your way.
There's a lot of help here, but you can't just expect it come looking for you, you need to go and look for yourself, as well.
You need someone to just put their arm around you and tell you it's going to be OK? Well it is.
But you have got to get up and come over here to get that. You have to get at least half way here...
At least make that effort. If you fail, it isn't over. You try again. You're here, but you need to help yourself for others to be able to help you.
It's tough, it's hard to do, it's all of those things, but it really isn't once you do. Your asking for things that you can easily reach.
Anxiety is a bitch, I know it is. It's two steps forward and three back some days. You know that every once in a while you'll get a step ahead.
If you didn't, you wouldn't be trying so hard right now.

It comes right back around to acceptance and self educating yourself, gather the information you need.
Your asking for the results without putting a base of knowledge underneath yourselves.
That's your step ahead, each and every time.
A lot of really knowledgeable people on this forum, in this section. They can show you the way, but you gotta do the walking.
One step at a time, another step and then another.
You'll get help with that too, but you have to put the effort into it to get something out of it.
It's just not possible for someone else to do it for you.
If it was, you'd be home free... where you want to be.
Because there are plenty of people here who would do that if they could. They can't.
People are trying to feed you the information you need but you are the one who has to chew.
You have to accept what it is. It's pretty painless once you do.

I was going to start another topic but this just ran together.
Kinda pushes the idea of acceptance around in a circle.
Sometimes it just works out that way.
Ativan

Ativan

More than an answer and very much appreciated.   The broader community is becoming more accepting of tg and non binary identities and it also feels like the tg community is becoming more accepting of non binaries.   At the same time treatment options and the knowledge of health practitioners is improving on a daily basis.   The internet is certainly helping, not just for information sharing and tribe formation but in facilitating communities like Susans to make it possible for individuals to safely explore their feelings, understanding, accepting and expressing their identities.  For non binaries, not feeling the pressure to swap one binary for another, is a real and unexpected blessing. To seek and express identity is at least less, but perhaps increasingly, unconstrained by binary thinking and this is truly liberating, revelatory and a cause for the celebration of individualism.

Aisla

A lot to think about here.

I think the beginning starts with self acceptance, to allow to find the non binary gender and then to begin discovery while shedding fear.

Getting out of the closet is another thing.  Getting onto the forum was the first step  for me, after doing it with the shrink and then the immediate family.  Being out at work has been harder.  I am only half out.

Every step was wrapped in fear.  Every step forward so far has been freeing.

It may be harder when it happens mid 50's.  More at stake, more unfreed time.

All I know to do is to face the fear and keep moving, standing my ground on small things of self expression.

More later from me on this topic.  Lots to digest.

If it wasn't for this forum and you dear ones, I would be unpleasantly screwed.

More later. 

Thoughts

Internal validation vs external validation through approval- subtle or not so subtle nuances of acceptance - what drives our gender validation?  How far must we compromise in social pressures?

The deep desire for acceptance among our peers - nonbinary peers?  Binary peers?  Cis?  Respect is given for authenticity many times, others not so much, negativity in the air.

The rejection by binary trans of their opposite nature - the desire to put it to death - couched in anger at their male or female sides for being there and not desired or wanted?  So do they see us as threatening, as we do not need to attempt to pass and it looks like something they are trying to bury, hide, overcome?   Do we trigger fear on their end of not passing, or of being ridiculed since our presentation may be obviously not male not female making them uncomfortable in their own stealth at being held up to more ridicule if they are read?  Are we a mirror of who the binary trans is afraid they may also be?

Why do we have the Klingers or more recently the trans on the Lone Ranger movie that is one of the villians?  I don't even know what to think of either, cannot see through the internal conflicts of past abuse and the dreadful mocking of childhood pears.  How can I watch a movie when I cannot understand why the character is there and why it is considered funny?  Comical?  Am I then a joke??  Something to be laughed at???

Do we bring the past pains and rejections into the present or disregard it?  Face it?  Acknowledge and move on?  Do we apologize to anyone for being trans, who we are, out of pressure and insecurity?  Act out against society in anger and create and angry presentation and in your face GQ presentations?  Or understate it for safety and convenience? (Me).

Isn't it an amazing act of courage to be obviously non binary but in a genuine way, to show ourselves as diamonds of humanity that are non conforming?  I would maintain that the best presentation is the authentic but gentle one, attractive, not angry, kind, representing us all, so that one life touches a normie and causes them to question the status quo.  Do I have the guts to do it?  In a subdued way, yes.  But not in one that is obviously trans.  Half in and half out of stealth.

But before the Ativan post, I did not acknowledge the fear, only the gains, and the new freedoms at home and in self acceptance.  And that is ok.  I am still here, I am still alive, and I want to learn.

Circles of validation.... self.... family... social.... but without self validation I think we are in trouble and will be dominated by our insecurities and available to be the victims of cruelty.

I run across this saying every so often:
'Life Begins at the Edge of Your Comfort Zone'.
I like that, it's the dancing on the Edge.
But it is just the beginning.
Nobody can tell you what the Edge is, it's yours.
You own it, it's your own fear. Only you know where the Edge is.
Life begins there at the Edge, it's getting ready to move past it, to step off, to step past it.
Life begins there, but living is when you finally do step off, step past it.
There is a brief moment of clarity that in itself is endless, timeless.
Your comfort zone will still be there, right behind you, you just expanded it's definition.
Step back into it if you want to, if you have a need to.
But never pass up an opportunity to find that moment that expands what your comfort zone is.
Life at the Edge is just the beginning, stepping past it or over it,.. Is Living your Life.
Ativan

All I can say is wow

There are two comfort zones I need to work with, mine, and my wifes.

Both of them have grown.

I need to internalize Ativan's last 2 posts.

And I may not worry so much about swimming now.  The boobs will show they are larger.  I am tired of swimming in the dark.  I need to be me.

I need you all.  I can't do this alone.

Many thanks.

The problem I run into is distortion.  It gets difficult, but I want to simply be true to myself and be real.  Fear takes me off of my true center.  Acceptance brings me back to it, acceptance of all conditions.

More later

The thing that amazes me about Ativan's posts is that Ativan always is able to see through the static and into the heart of the issues.  Ativan always gets to the core, pushing us to be more true to our cores and unbound by fear of who we are or how we will be perceived.  And if we break through that fear, we will be a truer representation of the non  binary spirit.

I am still learning who my core is.  I feel her, I feel him, I feel hir... but it comes down to learning to breath, to feel, to stop stuffing what I feel and experience the raw power of my own sensuality and spirit.  I have grown light-years since coming to Susans and initially seeking out my shrink.  But I am easily formed into fluidity by external and internal pressures.  I see the big picture too of the presentation(s) and choices we can make, see through where genuineness becomes selfishness, or selflessness, or caving into the pressure of what loved ones need.  Or should I say caring into that pressure.

Regardless, freedom of expression is a goal for me, in small gains, socially and at work.  In the home, I will stay to the boundaries of where acceptance meets with that which is too hard for the family to assimiliate, but in time, these may gently change.  They already have, leaving room for more love, more freedom, more peace of mind.

Great posts.

My hormones are being adjusted.  Who knows how that affects the posts and the center.  We will find out.  I will be at full female levels in a few more weeks, on injections.  Finally.

Love to all here.

Quote from: Satinjoy on June 16, 2014, 04:17:38 PM
But I am easily formed into fluidity by external and internal pressures.

Is this necessarily a bad thing? I'm wondering lately if being gender static is just as unachievable as being totally masculine. I beat myself up for so long for not being able to be as masculine as society expects me to be. Is beating oneself up about not being some perfectly androgynous balance all the time any better?

Even though some things would be easier to deal with if I were gender static, that's just as inaccurate as to what I am as being a man.

Thank you, Saint for posting those videos.

Not been on the site for a while, i'm glad to see that people have found these vids useful and I have got a lot from reading the discussion.   One of the speakers, Alex has published a book of her story; http://www.bramleypress.co.uk/grrlalex/ I found it a good read and related to a lot of stuff in it.  She does indeed have a lot of courage, very inspiring!

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on June 18, 2014, 12:33:54 AM
Is this necessarily a bad thing? I'm wondering lately if being gender static is just as unachievable as being totally masculine. I beat myself up for so long for not being able to be as masculine as society expects me to be. Is beating oneself up about not being some perfectly androgynous balance all the time any better?

Even though some things would be easier to deal with if I were gender static, that's just as inaccurate as to what I am as being a man.

Thank you, Saint for posting those videos.

As I begin to allow myself more freedom to express in a feminine way I feel I also am connecting to my masculinity.  It's a funny old game!  The more I explore this the less meaning words and identities such as male, female, trans, genderqueer, cis have for me.  I feel like I am getting closer to the place where I don't need words or identities to describe myself, I can just BE!  I still often get stuck in fear and avoidance and I have a long journey ahead but this seems more about developing self love, self acceptance and strength of character rather than "working out my gender issues".

Quote from: saint link
As I begin to allow myself more freedom to express in a feminine way I feel I also am connecting to my masculinity.  It's a funny old game!  The more I explore this the less meaning words and identities such as male, female, trans, genderqueer, cis have for me.  I feel like I am getting closer to the place where I don't need words or identities to describe myself, I can just BE!  I still often get stuck in fear and avoidance and I have a long journey ahead but this seems more about developing self love, self acceptance and strength of character rather than "working out my gender issues".

saint link

Very powerful words indeed and an insight which reflects my experience.  Life is presenting unexpected paths and opportunity for learning, growth and expression.  Truly wonderful!


Aisla

Quote from: saint on June 18, 2014, 06:09:10 AM
The more I explore this the less meaning words and identities such as male, female, trans, genderqueer, cis have for me.  I feel like I am getting closer to the place where I don't need words or identities to describe myself, I can just BE!  I still often get stuck in fear and avoidance and I have a long journey ahead but this seems more about developing self love, self acceptance and strength of character rather than "working out my gender issues".

Let me echo Aisla's sentiment here- and many others - it is beginning to vaguely dawn on me that I can be free to just live, to heck with the judgements, and to just be me.  Uncensored, funny, kindhearted and crazy me.  Who knew?  I guess the only answers I need  are that it is time to have fun and let my hair down again.

Nails out, hair down, and laughing joyously.  And very high on estrogen at the moment... .  Seems my levels are finally coming up.

I think I'll just enjoy having boobs and running around stealthily in female garments hidden by male ones and just enjoying feeling like Satinjoy.  The name is supposed to be a true representation... I think tonight it will be fun.

You folks are so cool....   love to all.

Going swimming.  There is nothing like coming out of the pool to notice how big your girls got.

I am so glad to be here in this pool....swimming with the pros being lifeguards, I think.