Ok, so I've had a long standing friend for a while, but she's recently been, despite my protest, attempting to convince me that gender and sexuality 'doesn't exist' and that because of that, transgender doesn't exist either. Her arguement is that everything from gender roles to the concept of a gender identity is something contrived by humans completely and doesn't have any basis in the real world to stand on. Personally, as someone who feels my body doesn't represent who I am and what I am sometimes told I should be based on what is between my legs, I find this a bit rude.

Thing is, what's the best rebuttal to this? I am considering distancing from her for now, because I find it easily becomes heated as a discussion. Has anyone ever dealt wit this sort of thing?

I guess I don't mean to be too blunt but besides biological differences between male and female bodies (if that isn't enough), I would ask how human perception and conception of gender is not in part "real world"? Frankly, the analysis is juvenile and silly masquerading as smart and informed.  Even gender roles we all agree are artificial are deeply rooted in the human condition. They are as real as anything.  The philosophy majors can quote the philosophers that argued that perception is reality, I'll just say it. 

This is a piece of ideological nonsense espoused by some radical feminists who take the concept of social construction to, umm, unhealthy extremes. The best rejoinder I've found is something along the lines of "Traffic laws are socially constructed, too -- do you believe they're not real either?"

You can also challenge her with something along the lines of "OK, so you don't believe that people have the right to control their own bodies?"

Unfortunately, you may end up having to distance yourself from your friend; as with other forms of ideological purity, it's difficult to impossible to talk true believers out of this.

Google "TERF" if you want to read about these folks. What bugs me is that they put this abstract, intellectual silliness ahead of the pain of real people, and then have the gall to tell these people (US!) that we should continue to suffer rather than challenge their beliefs.

Eejits. I count myself fortunate that I have only one not-too-close acquaintance who goes in for this dreck.

I guess the concept of gender as we see it, is an existential threat to some peoples world view. What I would do, is simple, tell her you know who you are better than she does.

I would much rather gender just be a social construct, I in fact thought it was for many years while I tried to "fix" myself from these feelings. That did lots more harm than good for sure, and when you look into the evidence from the medical and psychological community, not to mention the transgender community itself it starts to become apparent this isn't something you could rationalize away with some behavioral therapy as if it were a fear of heights.

Lots of pain has been caused by "picking sides" in the nature versus nurture argument, and if you really pay attention it becomes clear that both are a factor in human development no matter how that conflicts with people's world view.

... Uh, what?
Sounds like some philosophical stuff. I'm curious as to how this conversation came about. And why your friend felt the need to mention that transgender didn't exist either. Did they mention that androgynous didn't exist?
Personally, if a friend did that to me, I'd take it as a lack of support. I've known a few people who very suddenly have an opinion about something, which ironically goes against a belief I have. I distance myself from those kind of people.

Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Thing is, what's the best rebuttal to this?

These might help:
* No one has ever, ever come up with a way to make trans people no longer trans. Thousands of doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists, counselors, pastors, and healers of various stripes have tried. None have succeeded. If their gender identity were contrived, wouldn't SOME of them be able to change?
* People given a sex change in infancy, retain the gender identity they were given at birth. David Reimer was born a boy, given a sex change at a young age and raised a girl. He never stopped insisting he really was a boy, and eventually killed himself.
* Ask are they sure? Ask how they KNOW there isn't some place in people's brain that is wired to be a certain gender? Have they done brain research? Have they done behavioral research? If the answer to both of these are "no", where does their certainty come from?

Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AMHas anyone ever dealt wit this sort of thing?

Yes. I have a number of feminist friends who find the while "we were born wired to be our identified gender" to be horribly limiting. I understand their point of view. I believe the fact that I was born without wings to be horribly limiting as well, but I don't dive off the tops of buildings pretending I've got 'em.

I believe everyone can be educated, if they want to.

I am not sure that you can convince any zealots of anything.  Paid up members of the flat earth society, creationism etc  are rarely open to considering alternative views, opinion or inconvenient truths or facts.  Gender is real and it is biopsychosocial in nature each of these 3 elements interact with each other in shaping gender identity.  Of course if it isn't real then I have turned my life and that of my family upside down for absolutely no reason whatsoever

Aisla

Or meet it with just more philosophy... What color is the sky? Blue? Not really, colors are merely the way we perceive the frequency of little waves of energy. The sky, and everything else, has no color properties, but our minds are able to process how they react to light.  It relates like this:  In essence, people can be genderless at their core because their actions and such are mostly not a reflection of a gender (as an object doesn't absorb certain frequencies of light by will), but the way it interacts with an external source (in this case, social interaction) is naturally tinted and perceived by the human mind as gender, much as we do the color of physical objects. 

What Suzi said with one little addition.

Quote from: suzifrommd on June 12, 2014, 07:50:02 AM* Ask are they sure? Ask how they KNOW there isn't some place in people's brain that is wired to be a certain gender? Have they done brain research? Have they done behavioral research? If the answer to both of these are "no", where does their certainty come from?

This is what current scientific research supports and, despite what some people claim, the need for more research doesn't erase all the things that have been discovered so far. There is no biological or statistical evidence of gender roles, but as we know, those aren't gender. There is biological evidence of gender in the brain.

There is plenty of scientific evidence of brain differences in males and females and some that show that some parts of transgender brains are basically different from their assigned gender and very close or indistinguishable from their true gender

There are some famous cases where someone was raised in a gender opposite to the one that was biologically correct (ok, this is true for all transsexuals, but in this cas eI talk about something like cis-boys who had GRS as babies because of some accident). Plus there are intersexed individuals that have gender issues.

And finally transsexuality is not in all cases about gender at all. So if it is about transgender issues, yes maybe in a society that is ideal and has no gender differences or free choosable social genders, for many the issue would go away or be nonexistent, but what about those who know they should have a female body but have been born with male gonads and suffered from testosterone all their lives? How could I KNOW that I need breasts and a vulva and a hundred other things about my body changed even if it was only for myself and if I would have to live on as a boy socially? That does not make any sense if it was only about gender.
For transsexuals in the original sense, it is about their sex, their physical, biological body - and no one can refute that there is a biological dimorphism in humans

Quote from: ChelseaAnn on June 12, 2014, 07:47:15 AM
... Uh, what?
Sounds like some philosophical stuff. I'm curious as to how this conversation came about. And why your friend felt the need to mention that transgender didn't exist either. Did they mention that androgynous didn't exist?
Personally, if a friend did that to me, I'd take it as a lack of support. I've known a few people who very suddenly have an opinion about something, which ironically goes against a belief I have. I distance myself from those kind of people.

I basically came out to her about being trans, and her response was to say it doesn't exist. her arguement is that gender and sexuality only exist because we name and categorize things, with nothing physical to back it up, that it is unimportant and fundamentally doesn't effect people.

Im pretty sure every trans person could have something to say about it 'not effecting people' especially in regard to abuse towards sexualities and gender identities historically and in their own lives

Honestly sometimes I'm inclined to agree...  I don't really believe in gender  :/

Most people would rather see their friends miserable so they can feel better about themselves. Most friends will do this to you at some point, especially if there's a big change in the nature of the relationship. Personally, I'd make new friends and move on with my life.

Quote from: TiffanyT on June 12, 2014, 01:54:39 PMMost people would rather see their friends miserable so they can feel better about themselves. Most friends will do this to you at some point, especially if there's a big change in the nature of the relationship. Personally, I'd make new friends and move on with my life.

Seriously?  In my experience, most people are NOT that defective.  When my friends are miserable, I do my best to help them feel better because I am very empathetic and I can feel them hurting.  If I had a so-called "friend" who liked to make me miserable for their own sick and twisted benefit, I would put my proverbial foot in their a$$ and wear them as a shoe. 

Quote from: Jill F on June 12, 2014, 02:04:43 PM
If I had a so-called "friend" who liked to make me miserable for their own sick and twisted benefit, I would put my proverbial foot in their a$$ and wear them as a shoe.

Definitely this/\! Who doesn't want to help their friends feel good and care for them? That is why they are friends, they are the next step from family and in most cases a part of the family.

Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Ok, so I've had a long standing friend for a while, but she's recently been, despite my protest, attempting to convince me that gender and sexuality 'doesn't exist' and that because of that, transgender doesn't exist either. Her arguement is that everything from gender roles to the concept of a gender identity is something contrived by humans completely and doesn't have any basis in the real world to stand on. Personally, as someone who feels my body doesn't represent who I am and what I am sometimes told I should be based on what is between my legs, I find this a bit rude.

Thing is, what's the best rebuttal to this? I am considering distancing from her for now, because I find it easily becomes heated as a discussion. Has anyone ever dealt wit this sort of thing?

Then you should tell them to do their research. If it wasn't real and didn't exist then A) Males don't exist and neither do female or IS for that matter and B) Lots of real life people with educations wouldn't be telling us it exists. That there is a reason why this happens to people (Talking about how we're formed in the womb and lack of hormone exposure and such) and that transition is in most cases, needed.

My advice besides telling them that, educate them but don't argue with them. If you see a brick wall come up where both of what you're saying isn't working, and it keeps happening, maybe you should find a new friend. Sorry if it comes to that.

Philosophical debate aside, when it comes to the value of a friendship, what's important is mutual respect.  It's one thing when we see and experience the world in a way that our friends don't understand (and vice versa), it is something else all together when our "friends" think it's their right (or duty) to force their beliefs down our throats.

I have had friends who really did not understand or agree with my transition.  Especially in the early years of my transition, I invited one or 2 people that I respect and trust to make every effort to talk me out of it.  I figured if they could talk me out of transition, then I had no business transitioning.  Those friends did not hold back their opinions about why they thought I was making a mistake.  And we had some very lively debates on the subject.  But our discussions were always in the spirit of friendship first, mutual respect at all times, and love.  There was always give and take in these debates, and we would actively listen to each other and try to understand where each other were coming from.  I never felt judged or preached to. 

Where there is judgement and inflexibility, there can be no friendship.  If that's what is going on with this person, then it's time to cut her loose.  At least, that's what I would do.

Quote from: Jill F on June 12, 2014, 02:04:43 PM
....If I had a so-called "friend" who liked to make me miserable for their own sick and twisted benefit, I would put my proverbial foot in their a$$ and wear them as a shoe.

I know a few heels that I'd like to take for a spin around the dance floor.  Just sayin'.   

Quote from: Jill F on June 12, 2014, 02:04:43 PM
Seriously?  In my experience, most people are NOT that defective.  When my friends are miserable, I do my best to help them feel better because I am very empathetic and I can feel them hurting.  If I had a so-called "friend" who liked to make me miserable for their own sick and twisted benefit, I would put my proverbial foot in their a$$ and wear them as a shoe.

How very empathetic of you.

Quote from: TiffanyT on June 12, 2014, 02:45:38 PM
How very empathetic of you.

Empathy =/= Willingness to take abuse.   

I'm really sorry if people in your life have treated you badly or demonstrated schadenfreude at your expense.   You certainly didn't deserve it.