A lot of people, in a recent poll on androgyne identity and whether or not it was accepted, responded that they did not see androgyne as a valid gender identity.  Some said it was a form of gender expression.  Some said other things.

No one really elaborated on why they believed it was invalid.

I come before you today with a plea.

I can take the fact that you don't believe in my identity, but please tell me why.  It really bothers me that no one has said why they think this way. 

Take pity on a person, would you?  At least give me some reasons.  I don't care what they are.  Just please tell me.

I suppose I don't fall into your vat of dissenters Tay.  I don't understand androgony.  I really don't.  But... there are many people such as yourself who identify this way.  I can not ignore this fact.  I myself had a problem of self identity in my life.  I DO understand that feeling.

So from this perspective, I respect your desires and wishes.  I'm afraid that you'll have to stand in the back of the line with us to get equal rights, protections, and validation.  This country is still in turmoil over gay and lesbian issues.  Identity issues seem to take a back seat to it all.

Cindi

Thank you for your input, Cindi.  This is probably a good time for me to say that this is not me looking for people to say "We support you!" and try to make me feel better, though.

I am honestly just looking for reasons why people don't believe androgyne is a real gender identity.

It's simple Tay.  They don't understand it.  They can't conceptualize themselves as being anything other than who they are. As a result, they can't believe that anyone else should be any different.  If you add any sort of religious morality to the mix, you have some serious issues.

Cindi

But then why do we see these responses in the trans community?  Where people are seen as something else for part of their lives, treated as something they aren't?

Where people know the pain of having grown up pretending to be something they weren't?

This is what I do not understand. 

It bothers me, really, that the only responses I ever get to this question are the well-meant assumptions of people like you, the answers like this that rationalise it, but have never been consulted with the people who feel the opinion.

And that is not an attack on you, Cindi.  Please understand that.  It just bothers me that this is  the only type of response I ever get to this question.

I see where you are going Tay.  I hope you get some answers.

Cindi

Why do you see them in the T community? Because most people are leaving one box for another and many people do not like anything that falls outside of their box.

Hats off to you, when I was doing andro, it was the toughest part of my overall transition. The amount of animosity that one receives from the general public (they do not like anything that challenges them either) can be overwhelming.

I wish that people could just kick back and learn to love life more.

Tay,

I think being androgyne is valid and I find it very hard to talk about.  Our language simply doesn't support it, as you know.  Things that are hard to talk about are also very hard to understand and things that are hard to understand are hard to accept too.  You can combine this with the fact that many transsexual people have to move through both/neither to get where they want to be, but it's still a distance away from where they want to go.  So it's not a resting place for them, it's a temporary stopover.  It was one that I was glad to get through too because it felt just as dysphoric to me as being a man and I wasn't able to hide behind my old disguise anymore either.

I truly feel for you and can imagine your dilemma because I was there for a short while.  I often hope and pray that you find a way to deal with it or move beyond it's unique constraints and find peace in your life.

hugs & smiles
Emelye

Hi,

   I'm as curious as my sibling Tay is.
   
   If someone could just respond by saying, "I do not believe because...", that would at least explain the mindset or the reasoning to us a little bit.  I mean, how hard is it to just say, "Nature only allows for male and female.", if that is your belief?


Thank you,

Rebis
   

I don't think many could articulate why they don't believe so clearly Rebis. Even if they said that I don't think that would be the reason. The real reason is probably something more irrational.

I don't care if the answer is rational.  I don't care if it's polite.  I don't care if it's "You're all attention whoring loonies who just want to break what I'm setting up to do"

I just want an answer.

Posted on: September 04, 2007, 11:04:14 PM

---

And, like every time that I have asked anything like this, I am beginning to believe (not that I had much hope in the first place) that no one is going to answer.

I hate being me.

I find it really hard to believe that with all the people who voted that it wasn't an option that none have any reasoning for such a choice.

I mean even people who don't feel that who you're attracted to could possibly be innate and those who think that MtF's and FtM's are nothing more than crossdressing perverts have reasons for their beliefs as irrational and illogical as some of them are. They're also not afraid to say why either in many cases.

Why is it then that if these reasonings make sense enough to choose an option on a poll that dismisses someone elses identity entirely is it so difficult to type that reasoning just to satisfy the curiosity of those you are dismissing?

I guess it is difficult to answer because as Cindi said, we don't understand it.  Besides, when one is fixated on the binary gender system like most transsexuals are, we don't (want to) see past male and female, for this realization can threaten our core identity.

Personally and incidentally this is only MY opinion, I think the main reason why most of us are not able to see androgyne as a gender alternative is due to only one reason, insecurity.

tink

Tink,  the point of this thread i think was to find out why each PERSON voted the way they did,  not hypotheticals on why you think people voted one way or the other. 

For instance,  you posted on the poll thread

QuoteI hope so.  I just don't understand why some people would create threads in a form of a question and get all defensive and rude when our opinions are expressed.  Anyway, I voted for the following option: (My personal opinion)

Quote
It's a form of gender expression, not a gender identity


tink icon_chick

But didn't give any sort of explination as to why YOU voted that way.  That's what's being looked for here. 

So you disregard a whole group of people, making their numbers show up as irrelevant and making it even HARDER for them to get rights because YOU are afraid that if we get rights and good treatment and are seen as valid, YOU might not be seen as valid?

So you'd rather we stayed in the shadows just so you can have what you want?

Well, Regina, this poll shows that, while a large number of androgynes are young, on Susan's, at least, there are some older ones.  Given that fewer people over 30 hang out online than people under 30, I think it is fair to assume that there are many people over 30 that are androgyne.



As far as physical goes, I have strong feelings of dysphoria.  The forums are peppered with my expression of my NEED for a hysterectomy and probable mastectomy.  I am barely hanging on some days and as time passes, I'm getting worse.

What don't I understand?  If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far?  if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system?  I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity.  The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for.  IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time.  I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men.  When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior.  Why?  because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that . 


tink

P.S.  and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread.  I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words.  Let's have other members answer.  I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I?  Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
Okay, I don't understand something and that something bothers me.  What don't I understand?  If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far?  if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system?  I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity.  The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for.  IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time.  I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men.  When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior.  Why?  because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that . 


tink

P.S.  and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread.  I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words.  Let's have other members answer.  I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I?  Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.

search/replace androgyne with TS, and you just rolled back the clock about 50 years.
Or with gay/lesbian.
Maybe even hippy.

EDITED by aineko to be not a personal attack:
This entire argument is coming off as really hypocritical.

Quote from: Emelye on September 04, 2007, 05:16:17 PMIt was one that I was glad to get through too because it felt just as dysphoric to me as being a man and I wasn't able to hide behind my old disguise anymore either.

Yes... that is so true for me too... the dysphoria is still there because I still have not officially freed myself from the old gender role-- and added to that is the extra discomfort of visibly not fitting into that role either. While I feel much inner relief and happiness to have gotten so far toward my goal, paradoxically the outer discomfort has increased-- until I finally break on through to the other side.

Tried to run, tried to hide.
Break on through to the other side!

Can't wait!

See why it's so hard to imagine actually camping out on top of the razor's edge. For us one-half-of-the-binary folks, androgyny is a tribulation to be gotten through with all due speed. Gender blurring was the cool edgy radical thing during the latter half of the 1990s and the first years of the 2000s. Now may be the time for us binary-half types to say you know, we matter too.

And having gotten a wider view of gender crossing from multiple perspectives, regardless of where we settle in, I think we'll all be the better for it.

By the way, I'm someone who voted for it being a valid gender identity. I can definitely grasp the concept intellectually, even though I don't feel it.

I have NOT claimed to be a woman or a man at the same time.  And bigendered people or fluid gendered people may be man or woman at any given moment.  They fall under the androgyne umbrella. 

So because society has had something since the beginning, it should not be violated.  There goes gay marriage.  It shouldn't be allowed.  It will never be permitted.  There goes full transition for all of you.  It isn't tradition.  Shouldn't be allowed.

You violate society's views and ideas, too.  Please dont' forget that.