maybe time for 'friend' to become 'ex friend'. one must be a little mercenary when it comes to self preservation.

I have dealt With something simular once. I had invited One of my at that time close friends to go to the Beach and watch Stars With some Queen People. She is bisexual and had always knew of me Being trans, and she inviter another guy which also was bisexual and i thought this was no problem untill i found out he Wasnt agenst transgender People Being sterilisere just to change there name. 
He was very ignorant but the problem was that i expectet her to be on my side but insteed she turne agents me and startes to compare it With the fact she was a tomboy but now feel good about Being a Girl, and that it was just something we had been infected by society like Being bisexual and into s/m (her words not mine)

When the argument came up that it was just infected by society i Said. "But theres also People from Iran which is gay and trans and there society are not very accepting of these" but he did not belive that homoseksualitet exitter in Iran at all..

I i ended up leaving because it was too stupid for me. If it had been today i Would had tried Education Them about gender diversaty but im not sure it World had helped sine i did use slot of time tryimg to explain there things. It also depends on the other person is open or not, one if my friends today used to be ignorant, but she was willing to try and understand and by takling, and explaining and letting her Read about Being trans she become very suportive later on. So its not like its imposible but it has to go both ways. My friend here who had been a tomboy did still Want to be my friend but she did not ser anythibg Wrong With these opinions she had shared which opress me everyday, so i Said i did not feel like Being friends unfurtunatly.

There is tons of critique on that "gender is only social" and the resulting trans exclusive feminist stuff out there. Like this http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/02/trans-inclusive-feminist-movement/

That whole thing about "it only exists because we name it" philosophy was in a workshop that I started to listen in at a trans* conference. I had to leave halfway into it because it was just way too weird. Almost religious - like "we are of no gender , our souls are just little white dots that chose to inhabit a body - if you are trans, it is because your soul has chosen to be so" - I think this was from some hinduist or buddhist sect. For those "Constructivists" that say things only exist because we name them, even physical gender is a construct as well as everything els ein the world, even the table I am sitting in fromt of. It is pure philosophy. Dont apply it to reality

Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Ok, so I've had a long standing friend for a while, but she's recently been, despite my protest, attempting to convince me that gender and sexuality 'doesn't exist' and that because of that, transgender doesn't exist either.

Second to the typical terf nonsense, this is what sends up red flags for me. A disagreement, even about something this significant, is one thing. If your friend was simply uneducated about transgender issues, but respectful and willing to listen to the vast amounts of scientific data that explain that gender is very much a real phenomenon hardwired into the brain, that would be one thing. The fact that she knows this is a topic you don't want to discuss, and an incredibly personal one at that, yet still shoves her opinions down your throat is a serious boundary violation.

That being said, this ideology conflates gender roles with gender, and you'll be hard pressed to convince any of its proponents otherwise. In fact, the one time I tried to explain the biological basis for being transgender to a radical feminist who believed this way, she explained that scientific studies were part of "the patriarchy." People like this tend to push their agenda and refuse to acknowledge any evidence that doesn't back it up, so there's not usually much you can do except set conversational boundaries and walk away if she insists on crossing them.

Quote from: KlausIn fact, the one time I tried to explain the biological basis for being transgender to a radical feminist who believed this way, she explained that scientific studies were part of "the patriarchy."

Sadly, radical feminism has always been far too influenced by postmodern cultural studies; the latter went over the edge of sanity at least a couple of decades ago.

See, for example, the "Sokal affair:" In 1996, Dr. Alan Sokal, a professor of physics, submitted an article to the journal Social Text in which he argued that the laws of physics (specifically, quantum gravity) were a social and linguistic construction, and that 'the concept of "an external world whose properties are independent of any individual human being" was "dogma imposed by the long post-Enlightenment hegemony over the Western intellectual outlook".'

It was a brilliant, deliberate hoax, which he exposed the day the article was published.

Radical feminists have remained unembarrassed, and cling to their own notions of reality, or the lack of it, even when actual people are harmed by their beliefs. Of course, they may believe that actual people are social constructions, as well. 

Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Ok, so I've had a long standing friend for a while, but she's recently been, despite my protest, attempting to convince me that gender and sexuality 'doesn't exist' and that because of that, transgender doesn't exist either.

Yes. I have had a similar experience.

Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Thing is, what's the best rebuttal to this?

I used the words "Goodbye & goodluck" and I have not seen her since. It works for me.

Tell her that her opinion is simply wrong compared to the countless people who've studied gender and our identities and etc. in a professional capacity. Also, even if gender is made up, would it matter? Trans people often can face discrimination, the risk of being ostracised, dysphoria, and many other issues at least partly related to it, like anxiety or depression. Why does it matter more to her to tell you it's not real, than to support how you feel? Even if she was right, it doesn't change the fact that people's lives are hell because of it, and that means we should have support even if it is man-made.

I was just reading in the latest issue of TIME and it clearly stated that there is approximately 4.1 million transgendered individuals in America. That's a lot of people that don't exist.

Quote from: Klaus on June 12, 2014, 10:46:20 PM
she explained that scientific studies were part of "the patriarchy."

OMG, that is ridiculously misogynistic. Did she actually hear what she said? She basically implied that scientific studies can only be performed by - and for the benefit of - men. I don't even.

Ridiculous statements deserve to be ridiculed... and I'm sorry, but if she'd said that to my face I don't think I would've been able to control my laughter.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 13, 2014, 11:05:19 AM
OMG, that is ridiculously misogynistic. Did she actually hear what she said? She basically implied that scientific studies can only be performed by - and for the benefit of - men. I don't even.

Ridiculous statements deserve to be ridiculed... and I'm sorry, but if she'd said that to my face I don't think I would've been able to control my laughter.

I think the sentiment would be that new science is especially a field with a glass ceiling and that society discourages women's involvement in, so it's an authority that women are kept from reaching and influencing and the topics are more likely to be in the interest of men, who are the ones doing the research.

I think there is a point to it, and women in science is an important issue, but obviously it's a little over the top.

Just tell her she's right, we don't exist and then tell her you have to go feed your pet unicorn and just walk off.

I feel that Americans have to add a bit of conspiracy theory to everything, even in this case to radical feminism

Oh by the way, the point I left that workshop on construction of gender and sex and everything else was when they literally let us draw a circle on a piece of paper and asked if the circle was still there if the paper was gone. This is maybe fun but it is pure hardcore philosophy akin to "is ther light is there is no darkness" and "how can we know the world exists if we can only know what we sense and senses can be tricked" and "does the back side of the tree exist even if we only see the front side". As I said, this can be fun, but to base real politics or treatment of other people aon it is crazy. And disrespectful. And totally unempathic in this case, as that person should be able to feel that questioning you like that will hurt you.

Quote from: anjaq on June 13, 2014, 12:51:42 PM
I feel that Americans have to add a bit of conspiracy theory to everything, even in this case to radical feminism

Oh by the way, the point I left that workshop on construction of gender and sex and everything else was when they literally let us draw a circle on a piece of paper and asked if the circle was still there if the paper was gone. This is maybe fun but it is pure hardcore philosophy akin to "is ther light is there is no darkness" and "how can we know the world exists if we can only know what we sense and senses can be tricked" and "does the back side of the tree exist even if we only see the front side". As I said, this can be fun, but to base real politics or treatment of other people aon it is crazy. And disrespectful. And totally unempathic in this case, as that person should be able to feel that questioning you like that will hurt you.

It is way more fun if there is a conspiricy involved.

I agree with you though, philosophical whims are fun but there is a time and place for it and a lot of it can't really be applied to real life.

Quote from: anjaq on June 12, 2014, 03:21:34 PM
There is tons of critique on that "gender is only social" and the resulting trans exclusive feminist stuff out there. Like this http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/02/trans-inclusive-feminist-movement/

That whole thing about "it only exists because we name it" philosophy was in a workshop that I started to listen in at a trans* conference. I had to leave halfway into it because it was just way too weird. Almost religious - like "we are of no gender , our souls are just little white dots that chose to inhabit a body - if you are trans, it is because your soul has chosen to be so" - I think this was from some hinduist or buddhist sect. For those "Constructivists" that say things only exist because we name them, even physical gender is a construct as well as everything els ein the world, even the table I am sitting in fromt of. It is pure philosophy. Dont apply it to reality

Interesting analysis, but it's probably not Buddhist. I used to attend a buddhist group and got into the discussion about sexuality/gender as a topic in one of the priests talks. He put it as something that occurs in that persons life from karma. Also, Buddhism doesn't technically believe in a 'soul' in the sense of our western idea.

Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 13, 2014, 04:22:23 PM
Interesting analysis, but it's probably not Buddhist. I used to attend a buddhist group and got into the discussion about sexuality/gender as a topic in one of the priests talks. He put it as something that occurs in that persons life from karma. Also, Buddhism doesn't technically believe in a 'soul' in the sense of our western idea.

Buddhism is practiced by all sorts of people, including a lot of undereducated poor people, so the forms it takes are kind of all over the place. I wouldn't think seeing our souls as "little white dots" is outside the scope of a Buddhist point of view.

Quote from: Felix on June 14, 2014, 08:05:25 AM
Buddhism is practiced by all sorts of people, including a lot of undereducated poor people, so the forms it takes are kind of all over the place. I wouldn't think seeing our souls as "little white dots" is outside the scope of a Buddhist point of view.

True but if you read the teachings of Buddha in written form, it actually says that there is no self, and that the 'soul' we refer to is simply our 'ego' that we cling to. The only things we truly pass on are the knock on effects of our actions and we transform into something in that future (like how energy and mass cant be destroyed, just turned into something else). The soul being accepted in buddist theory is generally a western off-shoot and a more recent one at that.

Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 11:47:46 AM
I basically came out to her about being trans, and her response was to say it doesn't exist. her arguement is that gender and sexuality only exist because we name and categorize things, with nothing physical to back it up, that it is unimportant and fundamentally doesn't effect people.

Im pretty sure every trans person could have something to say about it 'not effecting people' especially in regard to abuse towards sexualities and gender identities historically and in their own lives

Well, I guess its safe to say that from what she says its okay to continue going on being trans then, afterall, gender and sexuality don't exist, so shouldn't be a problem with who you are. 

I see where her logic is (even though her logic is only but her own - sounds like my brother), take words for example (there are many others I could use but this one I've used a lot), specifically I'll use curse words, most of society frowns on their usage but most use them, its considered inappropriate language and not acceptable to use everywhere, but how is that really? They are words just like any other, if they aren't used to directly insult someone or in some negative way towards hurting someone's feeling or trying to piss them off, then what's wrong with a little bit of a tasty adjective, noun or such that gives that extra oomph when referring about something. Words only have meaning because we created them and gave them such definitions. Otherwise they are empty, just a bunch of letters thrown together. Words are just concepts evolved over time, yet, they exist, without them we'd be communicating by some other means.

But, to say gender and sexuality don't exist, that would be saying we are just empty shells. Those are not concepts or ideas created by people, they are facts of all living things, you are either male or female or a mix-match of the combination, completely whole of body and mind, or as many of us are, trans, body of one sex, mind of another, and since our mind is what makes us who we are, that determines how we perceive ourselves and the world around us. Better yet, we don't exist either, all life on the planet is just a figment of something's imagination - who knows, maybe we are, but it feels damn real to us. Sorry, but your friend's logic doesn't work here. Without gender and sexuality all life on the planet would come to a sudden halt, only then would it not exist as everything would soon cease to exist.

Did I make any sense here, or just confuse everyone? 

Quote from: Megan Joanne on June 14, 2014, 09:20:01 AM

I see where her logic is (even though her logic is only but her own - sounds like my brother), take words for example (there are many others I could use but this one I've used a lot), specifically I'll use curse words, most of society frowns on their usage but most use them, its considered inappropriate language and not acceptable to use everywhere, but how is that really? They are words just like any other, if they aren't used to directly insult someone or in some negative way towards hurting someone's feeling or trying to piss them off, then what's wrong with a little bit of a tasty adjective, noun or such that gives that extra oomph when referring about something. Words only have meaning because we created them and gave them such definitions. Otherwise they are empty, just a bunch of letters thrown together. Words are just concepts evolved over time, yet, they exist, without them we'd be communicating by some other means.

Did I make any sense here, or just confuse everyone? 

^ I like this girl.  Although worded differently, that's exactly how I see curse words as.

You sure did with me.

Quote from: Shana-chan on June 14, 2014, 09:53:41 AM
^ I like this girl.  Although worded differently, that's exactly how I see curse words as.

You sure did with me.

Even so, I think it was just an excuse for me to keep using them and for it to sound like its okay. Actual it would be if their use were widely and completely accepted, but its not. So all it does is make me look like an uneducated trash-mouth. See, when I started cursing a lot I was a very angry person, these words were a good way to vent, but over time even after I became happier with myself having used them for so many years way too much it became habit, even using them when its really unnecessary to do so. I must say, probably each day I'd curse around a hundred times (maybe I'm exaggerating, since I never actually counted, but far too much anyway with most sentences containing at least one curse word). Yeah, pretty bad. So, a couple weeks ago with me trying to make more positive changes to myself, this is one of those things that I am trying really hard to work on, trying to find alternative words that aren't so harsh or trashy sounding, because as my mom has always said, "its not very becoming", far from lady-like. I've cut down on cursing a lot, still its a constant thing keeping myself in check and reprimanding myself every time I do use them, just got to keep reminding myself not to. Kind of like keeping a virtual bar of soap in my mouth.

So, with what I said up there, relating this to that friend, I think this friend is just using her crazy logic as an excuse for her to continue to not accept the whole transsexual thing.

I'm afraid I would just be incredibly annoying and turn the whole conversation around, with the likely result of psychoanalysing your friend in an attempt to try and understand why she feels the way she does. I've noticed that a lot of folks prefer to talk about themselves a whole heck of a lot more than they like talking about you, or others.

You might find out things about your friend that you didn't know.