Wheee!  I don't actually exist... 

I'll try that one next time the cops pull me over.

Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 12, 2014, 06:48:01 AM
Ok, so I've had a long standing friend for a while, but she's recently been, despite my protest, attempting to convince me that gender and sexuality 'doesn't exist' and that because of that, transgender doesn't exist either. Her arguement is that everything from gender roles to the concept of a gender identity is something contrived by humans completely and doesn't have any basis in the real world to stand on. Personally, as someone who feels my body doesn't represent who I am and what I am sometimes told I should be based on what is between my legs, I find this a bit rude.

Thing is, what's the best rebuttal to this? I am considering distancing from her for now, because I find it easily becomes heated as a discussion. Has anyone ever dealt wit this sort of thing?

Maybe there doesn't need to be a rebuttal to this?  If you two want to stay friends can you just agree to not talk about this or does your ability to retain this woman's friendship depend on her coming around to seeing your point of view?  (And the opposite question applies - is she not going to be able to be friends with you until you see things her way?)

Has it occurred to you that you might BOTH be wrong?

Quote from: retransition on June 14, 2014, 07:50:47 PM
Maybe there doesn't need to be a rebuttal to this?  If you two want to stay friends can you just agree to not talk about this or does your ability to retain this woman's friendship depend on her coming around to seeing your point of view?  (And the opposite question applies - is she not going to be able to be friends with you until you see things her way?)

Has it occurred to you that you might BOTH be wrong?

Pretty sure I'm not wrong on my gender issues being serious to me and I would like them to be respected.

I think that mutual respect is a basic pre condition for friendship.  Your friend is not listening to you or respecting you.

Aisla

Quote from: retransition on June 14, 2014, 07:50:47 PM
Has it occurred to you that you might BOTH be wrong?

That sexuality and gender doesn't exist? Seriously? I am sure philosophy will debate this forever and never agree. I think what is bad is the friend doesn't respect her enough to support her right or wrong. Friends are friends no matter what happens or path's are taken in life. This friend sounds toxic and is not supportive. That is the real issue.

Whether or not gender is a social construct, society as a whole buys into it. The fact that society attaches certain (wildly incorrect) assumptions to me because of my body causes me discomfort and dysphoria, and that suffering is real regardless. It doesn't matter if gender identities are social constructs - as long as society relies on those constructs and believes in them, people who identify as trans are going to have problems. So whatever your friend believes, she needs to acknowledge that your suffering is real, no matter where it comes from.

Also, as everyone else has said, if she won't respect your feelings there's not a lot you can do but cut her off.

Quote from: jaybutterfly on June 14, 2014, 07:54:11 PM
Pretty sure I'm not wrong on my gender issues being serious to me and I would like them to be respected.

Well then maybe there is your answer. I think it is a reasonable request for you to say something like:

"At this point in time we are obviously not going to agree on this. All that I ask is that you respect that this is how I feel and that it is important to me. Going forward I also promise to afford the same respect toward you and your beliefs." 

If she is not amenable to this then tell her "it's been nice knowin' ya".

Problem solved, no?

Quote from: retransition on June 14, 2014, 09:57:01 PM
Well then maybe there is your answer. I think it is a reasonable request for you to say something like:

"At this point in time we are obviously not going to agree on this. All that I ask is that you respect that this is how I feel and that it is important to me. Going forward I also promise to afford the same respect toward you and your beliefs." 

If she is not amenable to this then tell her "it's been nice knowin' ya".

Problem solved, no?

Sounds good to me! 

Gender roles are natural. Sex and sexual variance is natural. Occasionally cross gender role behavior can be found in nature too(rare just like TS people). About the only thing unnatural is to believe it's all black, white and written in stone.

Quote from: Aisla on June 12, 2014, 07:53:13 AM
I am not sure that you can convince any zealots of anything.  Paid up members of the flat earth society, creationism etc  are rarely open to considering alternative views, opinion or inconvenient truths or facts.
Aisla

It's like trying to get a member of a cult to see the obvious - it is totally useless.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on June 13, 2014, 11:05:19 AM
OMG, that is ridiculously misogynistic. Did she actually hear what she said? She basically implied that scientific studies can only be performed by - and for the benefit of - men. I don't even.

Ridiculous statements deserve to be ridiculed... and I'm sorry, but if she'd said that to my face I don't think I would've been able to control my laughter.

Yes, Evidence of extreme feelings of male dominance and persecution.

Quote from: Sephirah on June 14, 2014, 01:48:16 PM
I'm afraid I would just be incredibly annoying and turn the whole conversation around, with the likely result of psychoanalysing your friend in an attempt to try and understand why she feels the way she does. I've noticed that a lot of folks prefer to talk about themselves a whole heck of a lot more than they like talking about you, or others.

You might find out things about your friend that you didn't know.

Is your friend saying this so that she can deny that your own personal feelings are real, or to try to somehow justify them? Denial to someone of their feelings, or of facts that are plain and obvious, is well known to be a form of abuse. You might realize she is not the friend you thought she was.