I'm hesitant to even ask as I know its just vastly different between everyone who goes the androgyne path of least resistance route (still wish I had the gumption to just go for it completely), but those that did the wait for male fail for fulltime, how often was it occurring when the courage finally kicked in?  I've been nongendered for months now, but last 2 days I've been getting gendered properly, and the funny thing is I've been dressing fairly male and not shaving out of convenience because I've been just too busy the past several days, so its totally out of the blue.  Funniest one so far was a cashier said"maam, I can take you over here" and since I hadn't been referred by that in forever it feels like, I looked around, like me?  Then she tried to talk me into buying razors to give to my baby daddy (was carrying baby).  So I'm encouraged, I've been on the fence to go fulltime for a couple weeks anyway, but after some very blatant male fails it its just more of a kick in that direction

definitely look male fail to me

I'm curious about this as well, I dressed andro yesterday and our waitress referred to me and my partner as 'ladies'. I kept my head down, though. I wonder what she would think if she got a closer look at me and also noticed my facial hair. I feel like I can see a girl in the mirror when I put my hand on front of my nose, but once I remove my hand I can't see her anymore. Hopefully I don't need rhinoplasty...

I'm curious though at what point you unquestionably pass for female, and the telltale signs of it- because I'm my own worst judge.

\

Quote from: Debussy on June 14, 2014, 04:51:30 PM
I'm curious though at what point you unquestionably pass for female, and the telltale signs of it.

It's really hard to ever know that short of being kicked out of the men's room or something similar. Or unless you receive some other form of validation. And if you're dressing andro, you may not to receive that from the most likely source, i.e. men or via street harassment. And that's a double edged sword.

Really, at some point, you can't wait for mail fail or whatever and you just have to trust your instincts. If people are referring to you as she, then it's a safe bet that they think you're female. But why hide your face, in the long run that doesn't seem like a healthy way to live though I certainly understand the impulse and action.

Though, TBH, I do get a lot of so-called mail fails or whatever but it's so awkward I wish I wouldn't happen. To have to pass as myself and then have people argue with me that I'm not me is just the height of awkwardness.

Thanks stefanie.  Although for the most part it is either I fall into either 1) androgyne and they dont have a clue , but not positive either way, or 2) trans something.  I'm pretty sure people can tell I'm not cis in either direction. I'm not expecting 100 % male fail our anything like that, was just wondering if there is any such thing as good external validation to go full time.  I'm fairly close to just doing it,  its obvious enough I'm trans in my everyday presentation now, might as well just go all the way. I'm close to losing plausible deniability anyway

Quote from: ashrock on June 14, 2014, 09:30:29 PM
Thanks stefanie.  Although for the most part it is either I fall into either 1) androgyne and they dont have a clue , but not positive either way, or 2) trans something.  I'm pretty sure people can tell I'm not cis in either direction. I'm not expecting 100 % male fail our anything like that, was just wondering if there is any such thing as good external validation to go full time.  I'm fairly close to just doing it,  its obvious enough I'm trans in my everyday presentation now, might as well just go all the way. I'm close to losing plausible deniability anyway

you'll be all right especially with make up and a knockout dress or skirt, I just bought a couple of dresses lately and worn them out and have had no problems with people gendering me properly

I dunno - I've been on low dose for two years with no intention on transition and there have been no incidences of male fail.

Male fail occurs only if you are actively working on your presentation in my humble opinion.

I guess male fails have happened to me?

This does come down to a confidence thing. I get people scanning me quite often but being 5'10" slender blonde woman that'll happen. Rub for me is I always think, "They just saw I'm trans" instead of something kinder like "they think I'm pretty." So I think my confidence is rocky. I still enjoy my life A LOT more than I used to and I'm reliably extended cis-gender privilege and I'm included with the girls for events.

Of course I just went for it too by going full time before I was even on a potent dose of HRT or had properly shaped eyebrows! I ended up experiencing some forceful misgenders as result. So going with the male fail androgyny route, no reason to regret whatever works for you and given my experience I'm going to bet androgyny first could out work a whole lot better.

I started male failing around month 6 on HRT. My first time, I was just getting over a nasty cold and was on my way to work (so I had a work uniform on which is a jersey like shirt and male jeans). After checking out, the lady said "have a good day, ma'am." After that it took about another month before I'd start getting gendered as female at a rate of once a week or so. Around the 8th month, it turned into a daily thing. I was fired from my job and that's when I decided to go full time.

Quote from: luna nyan on June 15, 2014, 04:02:09 AM
I dunno - I've been on low dose for two years with no intention on transition and there have been no incidences of male fail.

Male fail occurs only if you are actively working on your presentation in my humble opinion.

IDK. There's a few on here that would probably get male fail if they went out in male mode. I'm willing to bet, short of going out with facial hair or shaving my hair off, hardly anybody would gender me as male.

Sometimes I think I look more female when I'm dressed in my old boy t-shirts and hooded sweatshirt so there I suppose I male fail. When I dress in gender appropriate attire then my shoulders show along with many of the the other mean nasty ugly things T did to me. :/

Still, I think I look good and I feel good (save for the over analysis I'm prone to).

Life is good.

I think I am moving along at the same pace as Alaina described. Now that I'm past 7th month mark, I certainly do get a mix of reactions. Yesterday I was at the grocery store presenting in very casual male clothing and went to the deli counter and after they gave me my request, "would you like anything else ma'am?" Then a few moments later, I was checking out and the cashier looked at me about 5 times, didn't say anything, then finally noticed me pull my wallet from my pocket. and said "oh thank you sir, have a nice day." I've been in this androgynous phase for about 2.5 months. Now everyone I encounter is starting to ma'am me more and more. I think there are other factors involved, such as weight loss and my voice could be speeding up this process. On another note, I always get ma'am when presenting female and would be full-time if it wasn't for work. I think it is certainly possible to present male for a very long time on a low dose HRT regimen, but it does get difficult on a high dose regimen.

Quote from: luna nyan on June 15, 2014, 04:02:09 AM
I dunno - I've been on low dose for two years with no intention on transition and there have been no incidences of male fail.

Male fail occurs only if you are actively working on your presentation in my humble opinion.

luna nyan

As a non binary, low dose hrt fellow traveller I share your experience.  Without changes in presentation (hair, clothes, nails etc) I suspect that the signals will still remain male flavoured andro rather than female flavoured andro.  Will give it another year and further grow my hair and see if this changes perceptions/reactions!

Aisla

Presenting male people do call me ma'am pretty often but not sure if I should really read into that because I have long hair and no facial hair since I was 13 and people have done this to me since about that age. I just assume that most cashiers and whatnot don't really look very closely at thier customers.

Though lately, no matter how I am dressed I notice lots more double takes which i guess is good.

For me male fail presenting andro would be my threshold to beginning full time.

I can add:
- makeup
- feminized eyebrows
- perfume
- feminine clothing
- feminine body language
- (hopefully a passing voice)

That above should be enough overkill to ensure I'm there and not prone to being clocked. I won't accept otherwise. Why go full time if my "am I being clocked" program is constantly running like a busy process in my mental task manager.

I'm really going about it this way. If I ultimately reach androgyny, I'll live happily androgynously. If I ultimately pass as a gal. I'll live as a gal.

I'm perfectly fine with both.

My 3 MAJOR goals in transitioning will be realized either way. 1 - Be as attractive as I could possibly be naturally through my own gene expression. 2 - Survive testosterone poisoning and reap the benefits of Estrogen. 3 - Give a big f'yall to all the doubters in my life and mind flip them by turning beautiful.

Quote from: Aisla on June 16, 2014, 12:01:46 AM
luna nyan

As a non binary, low dose hrt fellow traveller I share your experience.  Without changes in presentation (hair, clothes, nails etc) I suspect that the signals will still remain male flavoured andro rather than female flavoured andro.  Will give it another year and further grow my hair and see if this changes perceptions/reactions!

Aisla

Yup!  I'll be watching your posts.
I've only done 3 things presentation-wise - low dose HRT, electro, and very carefully plucked brows that are andro in shape.  My hair is down to my ears on the sides and as far as the tip of my nose up front, ie longer up top, but short enough in the back to be acceptable for work.

Definitely, hair is part of male fail for me - so long as I keep it on the long side of a short style, I'm not going to be gendered female.

Everyday I go through a lot of male fails, people gender me female a lot,
but I still  get wierd looks etc...

So , male fail can  be at the same time female fail, cause some of us are really in the middle and cant get out...

Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on June 16, 2014, 05:09:07 AM
So , male fail can  be at the same time female fail, cause some of us are really in the middle and cant get out...

True.  I'm not too keen on getting stuck in the middle and for me, I would need FFS if I were to transition.  The risks with FFS for what I would want place it in the only if I were desperate category.

Quote from: Misato on June 15, 2014, 07:30:36 AM
Of course I just went for it too by going full time before I was even on a potent dose of HRT or had properly shaped eyebrows! I ended up experiencing some forceful misgenders as result. So going with the male fail androgyny route, no reason to regret whatever works for you and given my experience I'm going to bet androgyny first could out work a whole lot better.

Sorry, that sounds like it would be really rough, but I really appreciate anyone who can do that.  Im just way too sensitive to what other people think right now to go with it, though that and several other things are softening up.

Quote from: Misato on June 15, 2014, 08:06:01 PM
Sometimes I think I look more female when I'm dressed in my old boy t-shirts and hooded sweatshirt so there I suppose I male fail. When I dress in gender appropriate attire then my shoulders show along with many of the the other mean nasty ugly things T did to me. :/

I can relate very much to that.  Ive gotten more proper genderings in non-proper clothes than in what I really want to wear... I think that is a combination of 2 things: 1) Need to get a little better at picking clothes, Im not abysmally bad, fit so far is just its slightly off.  Though I wore horribly non fitting male attire my whole life, so Im surprised im not way worse at this. 2) Confidence and feeling less exposed.  I feel safe in guy clothes (not comfortable) because I can fall back on if I get clocked, in my mind it just cant seem to other people like Im a guy trying to be a girl since Im in guy clothes.  Why Im so terrified of that I have no idea, I know its not the reality of the situation I just don't want anyone to perceive that as reality.  That too is starting to become a bit inconsequential as Im starting to feel a bit awkward and crossdressed in some of my more male outfits, and well, I sound, stand, and move like a woman, so its not really like Im successfully convincing people im a cis guy...

Quote from: Evelyn K on June 16, 2014, 01:07:54 AM
For me male fail presenting andro would be my threshold to beginning full time.

I can add:
- makeup
- feminized eyebrows
- perfume
- feminine clothing
- feminine body language
- (hopefully a passing voice)

That above should be enough overkill to ensure I'm there and not prone to being clocked. I won't accept otherwise. Why go full time if my "am I being clocked" program is constantly running like a busy process in my mental task manager.

Well... My mental task manager was always busy blocking my feminine mannerisms and voice, so Ill gladly trade that in for "am I being clocked" because from what I hear that goes away. Also, now I LOVE using my voice where before I barely said a word, I hated having to talk like that.  Life is so much brighter when you don't mind cheerfully volleying back a hello at a stranger even when your voice doesn't match your clothes.

Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on June 16, 2014, 05:09:07 AM
So , male fail can  be at the same time female fail, cause some of us are really in the middle and cant get out...

Glad Im not the only one that feels that way.  I feel like I get clocked no matter what I try these days... Im trying to let that go, Im happier being the woman I feel I am, so since Im clocked going that way AND clocked trying to be my natal gender (which happens to exhaust and depress me), I think Ill take what makes me happy and just try to get over what other people think.

Wasn't great, kinda like my editing for my last response. *drumfill*

I just couldn't take it anymore so my pace was fast. Yours is slower and that's fine too. This whole experience is about finding out what works for each individual after all.

Quote from: Misato on June 16, 2014, 02:59:57 PM
Wasn't great, kinda like my editing for my last response. *drumfill*

I just couldn't take it anymore so my pace was fast. Yours is slower and that's fine too. This whole experience is about finding out what works for each individual after all.

yea , the point at which you just can't take it any more