Quote from: teeg on March 27, 2014, 09:14:06 AM
I asked my Endocrinologist about Progesterone yesterday. They cited studies and accounts from the Netherlands showing evidence that it has no effect and makes no difference. Then they mentioned studies and accounts from Boston showing evidence that it absolutely has an effect and makes a difference. Funny!

Bottom line is that if Progesterone is a part of a natal woman's hormonal makeup then why shouldn't it be a part of a trans woman's as well? There is sufficient evidence that it has some influence on the development of the internal workings of a natal female's breast during puberty and everything to do with the onset of lactation in the last trimester of a pregnancy.

Quote from: teeg on March 27, 2014, 09:14:06 AM
I asked my Endocrinologist about Progesterone yesterday. They cited studies and accounts from the Netherlands showing evidence that it has no effect and makes no difference. Then they mentioned studies and accounts from Boston showing evidence that it absolutely has an effect and makes a difference. Funny!

Hey hey Teeg. Do you happen to know anything that could help me identify and find the boston study? Thanks,  Kira x

Quote from: Shantel on March 27, 2014, 09:53:20 AM
Bottom line is that if Progesterone is a part of a natal woman's hormonal makeup then why shouldn't it be a part of a trans woman's as well? There is sufficient evidence that it has some influence on the development of the internal workings of a natal female's breast during puberty and everything to do with the onset of lactation in the last trimester of a pregnancy.

That's EXACTLY my theoretical point (the empirical point is that I always felt bad inside and outside, aged and
"de-feminized" every time they both pre and post op suspended me P in any form).
And not just that, I also add (again ?) that even males produce a tiny amount of P in their testis: after
castration/srs there's not anymore. So one might feel worst even just for that little lack of P (WHEN that's
the case, of course, we're definitely all made different).
Since I'm very concerned on how I feel bad since one year without progestogen, I'm now fighting my
own little battle for the truth. I think I will be able to start my bioidentical P in one month at most, and
I WILL keep you updated here and also on tgboards on EVERYTHING. Stay tuned !

Progesterone has been shown to promote cognitive functioning,  prevent progesterone deficiency induced hyperthyroidism, and cyst formation in the breasts, ease sleep problems,  restore sexual functioning blah blah blah.  I have academic reference for those.  Why the hell all recommendations for progesterone or not as part of her seem to based on feminisation I don't know.  Like boobs are the be all and end all for mtf folk. 

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on March 29, 2014, 09:24:31 AM
Progesterone has been shown to promote cognitive functioning,  prevent progesterone deficiency induced hyperthyroidism, and cyst formation in the breasts, ease sleep problems,  restore sexual functioning blah blah blah.  I have academic reference for those.  Why the hell all recommendations for progesterone or not as part of her seem to based on feminisation I don't know.  Like breaks are the be all and end all for mtf folk. 

Well yeah, and this too of course!

Not to mention help protect against neuro degradation and associated conditions such as parkinsons disease.  But no,  the size of my boobs is the only thing a mtf has to care about hey?

The problem with what most doctors "know" about progesterone is that most of them are confused by the difference between real human progesterone (ie,P4, prometrium) and medroxyprogesterone acetate (provera/MPA) which is a progestin with remarkably different side effect profiles. The biggest differences in adding P4 is cardiovascular, mental and libido.

Some light reading if you are interested.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15358673


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22834417
HRT and Your Genes: Breast Cancer RIsk or Not?
---Depends on whether your HRT is Bio-identical (estradiol and micronized Progesterone) or Toxic Synthetic ((Premarin and Medroxyprogesterone)

These results suggest that HRT with natural estrogens affects a much smaller number of genes and has less-adverse effects on the normal breast in vivo than conventional, synthetic therapy.

The synthetic therapy significantly enhanced mammographic breast density, an important risk factor for breast cancer.

Two 28-day cycles of daily estradiol (E2) gel 1.5 mg and oral micronized progesterone (P) 200 mg/day for the last 14 days of each cycle did not significantly increase breast epithelial proliferation at the cell level nor at the mRNA level ).

By contrast, two 28-day cycles of daily oral conjugated equine estrogens (CEE) 0.625 mg and oral medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA) 5 mg for the last 14 days of each cycle significantly increased proliferation at both the cell level and at the mRNA level, and significantly enhanced mammographic breast density, an important risk factor for breast cancer.

In addition, CEE/MPA affected around 2,500 genes compared with just 600 affected by E2/P.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Novel+Perspectives+for+Progesterone+in+Hormone+Replacement+Therapy%2C+with+Special+Reference+to+the+Nervous
Novel perspectives for progesterone in hormone replacement therapy, with special reference to the nervous system.
Schumacher M1, Guennoun R, Ghoumari A, Massaad C, Robert F, El-Etr M, Akwa Y, Rajkowski K, Baulieu EE.
Author information
Abstract

The utility and safety of postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy has recently been put into question by large clinical trials. Their outcome has been extensively commented upon, but discussions have mainly been limited to the effects of estrogens. In fact, progestagens are generally only considered with respect to their usefulness in preventing estrogen stimulation of uterine hyperplasia and malignancy. In addition, various risks have been attributed to progestagens and their omission from hormone replacement therapy has been considered, but this may underestimate their potential benefits and therapeutic promises. A major reason for the controversial reputation of progestagens is that they are generally considered as a single class. Moreover, the term progesterone is often used as a generic one for the different types of both natural and synthetic progestagens. This is not appropriate because natural progesterone has properties very distinct from the synthetic progestins. Within the nervous system, the neuroprotective and promyelinating effects of progesterone are promising, not only for preventing but also for reversing age-dependent changes and dysfunctions. There is indeed strong evidence that the aging nervous system remains at least to some extent sensitive to these beneficial effects of progesterone. The actions of progesterone in peripheral target tissues including breast, blood vessels, and bones are less well understood, but there is evidence for the beneficial effects of progesterone. The variety of signaling mechanisms of progesterone offers exciting possibilities for the development of more selective, efficient, and safe progestagens. The recognition that progesterone is synthesized by neurons and glial cells requires a reevaluation of hormonal aging.

http://www.cpementalhealth.com/content/4/1/3

Third time I ask about progesterone to the end, same answer: Not enough benefits, too many side effects. I mentioned the natural progesterone, but no luck.



So I'm DIYing it, sadly. I only find benefits from using it, in both physical and mental health. Also, it could augment my possibilities of getting a better BA, such as improving the breast shape and areolas ( I can't have the BA done from them)

Quote from: JessicaH on June 16, 2014, 12:20:29 AM
The problem with what most doctors "know" about progesterone is that most of them are confused by the difference between real human progesterone (ie,P4, prometrium) and medroxyprogesterone acetate (provera/MPA) which is a progestin with remarkably different side effect profiles. The biggest differences in adding P4 is cardiovascular, mental and libido.

Some light reading if you are interested.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15358673


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22834417
HRT and Your Genes: Breast Cancer RIsk or Not?
---Depends on whether your HRT is Bio-identical (estradiol and micronized Progesterone) or Toxic Synthetic ((Premarin and Medroxyprogesterone)

These results suggest that HRT with natural estrogens affects a much smaller number of genes and has less-adverse effects on the normal breast in vivo than conventional, synthetic therapy.

The synthetic therapy significantly enhanced mammographic breast density, an important risk factor for breast cancer.

Two 28-day cycles of daily estradiol (E2) gel 1.5 mg and oral micronized progesterone (P) 200 mg/day for the last 14 days of each cycle did not significantly increase breast epithelial proliferation at the cell level nor at the mRNA level ).

By contrast, two 28-day cycles of daily oral conjugated equine estrogens (CEE) 0.625 mg and oral medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA) 5 mg for the last 14 days of each cycle significantly increased proliferation at both the cell level and at the mRNA level, and significantly enhanced mammographic breast density, an important risk factor for breast cancer.

In addition, CEE/MPA affected around 2,500 genes compared with just 600 affected by E2/P.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Novel+Perspectives+for+Progesterone+in+Hormone+Replacement+Therapy%2C+with+Special+Reference+to+the+Nervous
Novel perspectives for progesterone in hormone replacement therapy, with special reference to the nervous system.
Schumacher M1, Guennoun R, Ghoumari A, Massaad C, Robert F, El-Etr M, Akwa Y, Rajkowski K, Baulieu EE.
Author information
Abstract

The utility and safety of postmenopausal hormone replacement therapy has recently been put into question by large clinical trials. Their outcome has been extensively commented upon, but discussions have mainly been limited to the effects of estrogens. In fact, progestagens are generally only considered with respect to their usefulness in preventing estrogen stimulation of uterine hyperplasia and malignancy. In addition, various risks have been attributed to progestagens and their omission from hormone replacement therapy has been considered, but this may underestimate their potential benefits and therapeutic promises. A major reason for the controversial reputation of progestagens is that they are generally considered as a single class. Moreover, the term progesterone is often used as a generic one for the different types of both natural and synthetic progestagens. This is not appropriate because natural progesterone has properties very distinct from the synthetic progestins. Within the nervous system, the neuroprotective and promyelinating effects of progesterone are promising, not only for preventing but also for reversing age-dependent changes and dysfunctions. There is indeed strong evidence that the aging nervous system remains at least to some extent sensitive to these beneficial effects of progesterone. The actions of progesterone in peripheral target tissues including breast, blood vessels, and bones are less well understood, but there is evidence for the beneficial effects of progesterone. The variety of signaling mechanisms of progesterone offers exciting possibilities for the development of more selective, efficient, and safe progestagens. The recognition that progesterone is synthesized by neurons and glial cells requires a reevaluation of hormonal aging.

http://www.cpementalhealth.com/content/4/1/3

Thanks for all this very interesting and useful information. The only thing I disagree with is breast proliferation being a marker for breast cancer. Bio-identical estradiol + progesterone can induce quite significant breast proliferation as seen in genetic women during puberty or pregnancy. This does not however mean that breast cancer is increased. Actually, increased pregnancies seems to reduce cancer risk.   

Quote from: Julia (Apple-Whatever) on June 16, 2014, 03:41:43 AM
Third time I ask about progesterone to the end, same answer: Not enough benefits, too many side effects. I mentioned the natural progesterone, but no luck.

You should have argued, questioned him more. Perhaps, he would have budged. No harm in discussing with doctor and with disagreeing. You should have mentioned the benefits to you. Did you?

So next month I am adding progesterone to my regimen on a trial basis. I am a bit skeptical on it, because when I did talk to doctors they all said it does nothing, but when I look at the information available online it certainly looks like it does something. I admit to having a bit of trepidation also because my current regimen: Estradiol, Bicalutamide, and Dutasteride works really well for me, and things like breast growth are already going really well. I don't want to "fix what isn't broken" but, I do think that if a natal woman has P then so should I.

One thing though, confuses me about P, why is it that some people say it needs to be cycled and others say there is no medical need to cycle it?

I don't know if I had shared these but hey...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18775609
Could transdermal estradiol + progesterone be a safer postmenopausal HRT? A review.

At the end of the day logic says, progesterone is present in males and females. If you have SRS then you are artificially reducing your progesterone levels its not floating around in your body for no reason.

The links to brain function are more important to me than boob size and in fact it annoys the hell out of me that this is all the GIC seem to think is important for hormone use for trans people. Yes, I am clearly just a walking pair of boobs.

Here is a recent lab rat study that is interesting (just interesting, nothing more at this time I think).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24926824
On the time course, generality and regulation of plasma progesterone release in male rats by stress exposure.

I was going to post the novel perspectives one too, which talks about a lot of the effects of progesterone and a lot of the problems with the use of the word progesterone to mean progestin and generally lumping them all together (a problem that the WPATH guidance makes when using the 1986 study of just 9 people on MPA rather than micronised progesterone).

Quote from: KayXo on June 16, 2014, 06:37:14 PM
You should have argued, questioned him more. Perhaps, he would have budged. No harm in discussing with doctor and with disagreeing. You should have mentioned the benefits to you. Did you?

Last time I told them I was on my own it ended with a menace of "follow our rules or find yourself a private endo.

Honestly, I'm so tired of the whole service that I feel I am there only because of how expensive it would be to privately do everything since I soon will be unemployed. I'd rather request the SRS letters, leave, get my balls removed so that I don't need to pay the whole price of androcur and do everything on my own.

Public healthcare is a dictatorship.

Quote from: Hikari on June 16, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
So next month I am adding progesterone to my regimen on a trial basis. I am a bit skeptical on it, because when I did talk to doctors they all said it does nothing, but when I look at the information available online it certainly looks like it does something. I admit to having a bit of trepidation also because my current regimen: Estradiol, Bicalutamide, and Dutasteride works really well for me, and things like breast growth are already going really well. I don't want to "fix what isn't broken" but, I do think that if a natal woman has P then so should I.

One thing though, confuses me about P, why is it that some people say it needs to be cycled and others say there is no medical need to cycle it?

You may or may not find that P helps with breast growth, mood and skin/hair texture. Trial and error, indeed. To state that it does nothing is not true since some women do benefit from taking it.

Some cycle it to mimic women's menstrual cycles but as I have explained it before, I don't see cycling as natural. Progesterone levels rise in the second part of the menstrual cycle to prepare for pregnancy and are supposed to continue rising not suddenly stop, like E. To go through this cycle, again and again, is not what nature intended and can perhaps be detrimental to someone's health long-term as some have suspected. One thing is for sure, it does create mood swings in many women. If you want the downsides of cycling just to go through the same thing, then be it. Your doctor has the last word though. He's the expert. Do as she/he says but you can always have a talk with them beforehand and give your 2 cents. I personally take it continuously, as per my doctor and my own suggestion which he agrees with.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on June 17, 2014, 04:15:22 AM
progesterone is present in males and females.

Not entirely correct. In men, progesterone levels are VERY low, barely present and the same could be said of women during the first part of their cycle and during breastfeeding. The only times progesterone is high is during the second part of their cycle and pregnancy, especially.

Quote from: kira21If you have SRS then you are artificially reducing your progesterone levels its not floating around in your body for no reason.

Barely any difference from pre-op. Very little progesterone is produced from testis. We still have our adrenal glands. 

Hmmmm, well that information was from the GIC, though it was from the psychiatrists. From what you are saying though, it is still true, even if it is possibly negligible.

It is also my understanding from what they said that gnrh would reduce progesterone levels. I would like to hear whether you know anything about that, as I am currently hoping not to be put on one. My levels are quite good without - my T level is at 0.3 ng/ml

Quote from: KayXo on June 17, 2014, 06:45:36 AM
One thing is for sure, it does create mood swings in many women. If you want the downsides of cycling just to go through the same thing, then be it

Yesterday was day 1 of this month's progesterone cycle and by noon I was one moody, irritable bitch snapping at people in my office. It usually takes until around day 4 for me to begin to feel stuff like that, but it came early this time for some reason.

I'm really not looking forward to what the next 11 days will hold for me. I do like the physical changes that are happening so I will just have to deal with it and try to avoid getting fired because of my moodiness.

So yes, it can and will affect moods.

After thoroughly reading through every post and some links, Im still not convinced P is as miraculous as some are making it out to be.  Not to discredit the effects you believe to be happening, but they are truly just testimonials.  Not to say that it couldn't be that P in harmony with E are causing better results, could it also not be the prolonged use of E giving the results?  Or perhaps it is the placebo effect.  What I'm getting at is it seems there is some anti anti-andogen and some pro-progesterin attitude when aa is perfectly acceptable for many MtF.  It is only my suggestion to take the tried route of aa first and see how you react to that before delving into P from the get go.  At least until further scientific data presents itself.

Quote from: AnnaCannibal on June 17, 2014, 07:17:59 PM
After thoroughly reading through every post and some links, Im still not convinced P is as miraculous as some are making it out to be.  Not to discredit the effects you believe to be happening, but they are truly just testimonials.  Not to say that it couldn't be that P in harmony with E are causing better results, could it also not be the prolonged use of E giving the results?  Or perhaps it is the placebo effect.  What I'm getting at is it seems there is some anti anti-andogen and some pro-progesterin attitude when aa is perfectly acceptable for many MtF.  It is only my suggestion to take the tried route of aa first and see how you react to that before delving into P from the get go.  At least until further scientific data presents itself.

Anna,
P is always supposed to be combined with E, not by itself. P itself is actually a bit AA without the side effects of AAs. Research and studies are out there and if you take advanced bio courses the effects of the combination of one or more of these is pretty evident without a need for a formal study. Most likely because if you know the pathways and subpathways there isnt a need to do a study. Also personally I dont use AAs besides those effects naturally found in P because they are more chemically derived than biologically derived.
~Jen

The problem with doctors is that most are lazy or really don't give a F**k about transpeople to study HRT literature. Doctors that resist prescribing P don't know what they are doing. They haven't looked at the difference between progestins (synthetic/prvera/medroxyprogesterone acetate/MPA) and PROGESTERONE (P4/micronized progesterone/bio identicle progesterone). They are NOT the same thing and many studies have been conflated by not differentiating between the two. And don't think that because your doctor is and "endo", that he is some endocrinology god. They spend most of their careers dealing with diabetes and thyroid issues and do most of their continuing education from drug reps.

I am working on putting a database together on research specifically of trans HRT and when I get further along I will share it here.