Lately I have been thinking about what I was like when I was younger. Sometimes I think "jeez I was an arse 10 years ago, I am so much better now". Then I think back to 10 years ago and I remember then thinking to myself that when I was 10 years younger "dude, you were such an arse back then". I wonder if this will repeat, am I getting better or am I only remembering the bad stuff about me?

This is really a bit of a side track to my main question but it does lead to it. I started thinking about whether we are the same person now as we were in the past. I think that I am now a different person to who I was in the past, maybe even 10 minutes ago, in that I am not the person I was. Go back 10 years and I even wonder if I would have liked the person I was back then. If I am no longer that same person, does this mean I am absolved of the sins of my past? Am I still responsible for something that person who became me did that I would not do now?

Extrapolate this and I wonder whether people should feel responsible for the actions of their ancestors?

Any thoughts?

I'm not sure how much I believe in "sin" in the religious sense, but  I do think that you are the same person you were years ago... but you've grown... you change and evolve but you're always the same you

Are you held responsible for your actions from 10 years ago?  I'd say yes, but there is always something to be said about live and let live...  If someone is holding something over your head for that long it better be pretty serious hehe

Responsibility for ancestors actions?  no... thats what -they- did.. not you or me.

I am responsible for my past 'sins' but hopefully I am forgiven.  My soul has always be the same and will remain the same till I die, the physical does not change the heart and soul.  I don't believe in the ancestoral idea of past sins from another life, if you sin, you pay for it in this life time or not at all.  I also believe in the adage, 'forgive but never forget'. 

I don't believe in "sin" as I am not religious anymore.  I think that everyone should be responsible for their actions now, yesterday, tomorrow, or one hundred years ago.  Yes, you might be a different person now in terms of intellect and experiences but that fact doesn't excuse you from what *you* did in the past.  My two cents.

tink

You can not change the past. You probably are not able to forget your experiences. If you do not believe in religious dogma then the only thing left is guilt. Can you forgive yourself? I think in light of the fact that you can not change the past and life is finite, that the best we can do is live this and every moment now and in the future in a better way then we did in the past, hence no guilt.

Perhaps sin was the wrong word to use - actions is probably a better word to describe what I was getting at. But we could look at religious sin too.

It would be great if we could leave belief out of this discussion and just look at this as an exercise in logic.

Leaving spirituality aside for the moment, as biological beings can we say we are the same person that we were 10 or 20 years ago, how much of that person remains? How much has our brainstructure changed, how much of our body has been replaced through cell regeneration, how much of the material contained in our body is still the same stuff from earlier in our lives?

I don't think we are physically the same being we were 10 years ago in that we are not made of the exact material we were made of before, we are not mentally the same. All we have are some patterns (structural and genetic) that have been replicated and modified using new material. It is almost as if the us in the now is built on the foundations of someone else.

So if you still say we are responsible for the actions of who we were and all that physically remains of who we were is a pattern, I think it could be valid to extrapolate this to our ancestors. We are built on the patterns passed down by our ancestors so maybe we are responsible for their actions too. If we are not responsible for their actions then why should we be responsible for who we were?

In order to have rights we need to have responsibilities. No longer do we have the rights of a male so we do not have male responsibilities but we gained female rights and female responsibilities. As a person we have to live a responsible life in society regardless of our makeup. If we cause hardship during our lifetime we are responsible to correct or pay for that act till it considered even. Once we are clear of that debt then we can live without guilt. Experience and memories do not change with the changing material of the body. Like a CD that is copied or transferring stuff from an old computer to a new one.

Quote from: lisagurl on September 06, 2007, 05:11:47 PM
In order to have rights we need to have responsibilities. No longer do we have the rights of a male so we do not have male responsibilities but we gained female rights and female responsibilities. As a person we have to live a responsible life in society regardless of our makeup. If we cause hardship during our lifetime we are responsible to correct or pay for that act till it considered even. Once we are clear of that debt then we can live without guilt. Experience and memories do not change with the changing material of the body. Like a CD that is copied or transferring stuff from an old computer to a new one.

What if it can be shown that experience and memory does change (and they do)? Memory and experiences also change as we reinterpret them using current 'filters', let alone changes due to changes in that 'raw data'.
When you copy a CD and transfer information from one computer to another, in most circumstances it is not an exact copy (any computer techies back me up here?). Information can be fragmented, and the programme you are using to retrieve and display it can retreive and display it in different ways (like the way society interprets you as a piece of data - as society changes so does it's interpretation). Play a copied music CD that is a copy of a copy of a copy etc..and you will notice a big change in quality. It will eventually reach a point where it is no longer recognisable as the music it was. Would that original recording artist be responsible for that 'noise'?

Quote from: NickSister on September 06, 2007, 06:56:47 PM
[
What if it can be shown that experience and memory does change (and they do)? Memory and experiences also change as we reinterpret them using current 'filters', let alone changes due to changes in that 'raw data'.
When you copy a CD and transfer information from one computer to another, in most circumstances it is not an exact copy (any computer techies back me up here?). Information can be fragmented, and the programme you are using to retrieve and display it can retreive and display it in different ways (like the way society interprets you as a piece of data - as society changes so does it's interpretation). Play a copied music CD that is a copy of a copy of a copy etc..and you will notice a big change in quality. It will eventually reach a point where it is no longer recognisable as the music it was. Would that original recording artist be responsible for that 'noise'?

I am sorry but I do not agree with you at all.  Memory and experiences change?    If that is the case, you wouldn't be who you are now.  Can I have what you're taking because I'd like to change my memory and experiences as well??

buttercup 

Every mind changes over time.  Parts of the brain alter as they confront war, stress, love, anger, and happiness. 

Scientists show that there, at this point, can be no forecasting of what someone will do.  For example, mass murderers often have something different light up in the front part of their brain.  Contrarily though, someone having that similarity of brain structure is no guarantee that they will be a mass murderer.

You asked, initially, about "sins" but then clarified that you weren't talking about sins as religion views them.  I'm confused as to what these "sins" are that you speak of.  If they are minor sins, such as being insulting, I think we all agree that people can grow out of that and these sins can be forgiven.  Contrarily, murder is something most in society feel is unforgivable.  Given this, I find it interesting that the Amish were forgiving when many children in their shoolhouse were murdered.  They forgave the killer -- something most of us would not do. 

But psychologists tell us that if we hang onto hatred - hating someone who hurt us - we end up injuring ourselves.  So, maybe that is what's behind the Christian doctrine of forgiving...we end up helping ourselves, our psyche.

In that end, if people can forgive the most horrible thing humans can do, I would suggest that you be kind to yourself and forgive yourself, your sins.  If you know you are different now and would never do such hurtful things, repent, say you're sorry (if only to yourself).  And mean it.

Don't over-philosophize or torture yourself -- Instead, do kind things for others.  That is the best solution.

Teri Anne

Hazzah!, Buttercup is starting to get it. If our memories and experiences change over time then maybe we arn't who we are now, therefore can we be responsible for actions we did when we wern't who we are now (either for good or bad)?

(please note again I'm not arguing from personal belief, I'm just trying to construct an argument based on logic).

These musings lead on to another thought of mine. If we are not who we were then what is it that makes us still us despite changes in time? Maybe we need to view us in time in it's entire length (at least for the span of a lifetime) - maybe looking at ourselves in this way you can see us in our entirety. But if we only look at oursleves at a point in time this is only a fraction of our complete selves, like looking at a slice. Using this view we would logically be responsible for any action we did no matter when in time. The implication being we are responsible for things we will end up doing in the future.

So if you get on a college degree it does not count when you are looking for a job? Your logic has a fallacy.

We can change our bodies, we can change our minds. However, we can never change our pass.
Unless we totally lost our minds.

Quote from: lisagurl on September 06, 2007, 08:20:58 PM
So if you get on a college degree it does not count when you are looking for a job? Your logic has a fallacy.

Good question. Possibly. Depends, partly on how long ago and what job.
This is one aspect we did not discuss. If we are not who we were, when do we start becomming who we are now?

We appear to be built on the foundations of who we were, so a degree would possibly count, it becomes part of our foundation for who we are now. Even if we assume memory and experience change overtime, they are still based on the past. There is no denying the actions of the past affect the present. I don't think this is a hole in the theory. The question is are we responsible for which degree we took just because if affects us today?

It seems you do not understand the rights you have today depend on the how you lived up to your responsibilities for your entire life.  if you are a new person then all your past bank accounts do now not belong to you. Can you see the next day depends on the last day the next year depends on the past year and death depends on birth.  Perhaps age and distance heal most wounds but the scars are there till death. If you apply for a Masters degree the school does not care when or what you got you Bachelor's degree in. They just want you to have the prerequisites for whatever classes you take. The important things are the details of the past and how you assemble them in the future not whether you changed you sex or perceive things differently.

Dear Nicksister,
My answer/opinion to you regarding ancestors' sins is foghet aboutit.

Is what you ask a philosophical argument in which philosophers can argue about it ad infinitum or are you tortured about something specific in your past?  Other than saying that you felt that you had done "arse"-like things in the past, I see little details.  I think any psychologist would ask you why you ask the question -- is there something that tortures you, or more mildly, has created a "scar" in you -- something you can't shake?

Without more to go on, I think this circular philosophical discussion is endless because, bottom line, the "answer" is subjective -- only YOU can decide how you think.

My subjective answer/opinion is that I am responsible for anything I did in the past.  As someone pointed out, a past traumatic incident cannot be erased.  It scars us for life.  People who fight in wars never forget those times.  They wake up from bad dreams, in a sweat.  But, if we choose to go on, we, for our own health and well-being, have to forgive ourselves a little, and as I said earlier, do good things in repentance.  This isn't a religious statement.  It's probably the only logical way for us to move forwards.

Teri Anne

My thought is, outside of a permanent and absolute amnesia, and even then probably not, we are always who we were, down to some level

eg: one great jazz guitar player (whose name escapes me right now - no, PAT MARTINO, behind some brain surgery) suffered what is conventionally known as total amnesia.
he had to relearn the instrument from 'the bottom' or all over again

he did it far more easily than a non-guitar player, let's just say, and though some aspects of style did change in the interim, the musical personality/ies has/have integrity with one another, and it's inescapable

that's a positive example, the negative might be even more easily discernible in a personality

{this doesn't even take into consideration the idea of karma}

Quote from: lisagurl on September 07, 2007, 10:31:07 AM
It seems you do not understand the rights you have today depend on the how you lived up to your responsibilities for your entire life.  if you are a new person then all your past bank accounts do now not belong to you. Can you see the next day depends on the last day the next year depends on the past year and death depends on birth.  Perhaps age and distance heal most wounds but the scars are there till death. If you apply for a Masters degree the school does not care when or what you got you Bachelor's degree in. They just want you to have the prerequisites for whatever classes you take. The important things are the details of the past and how you assemble them in the future not whether you changed you sex or perceive things differently.

Good argument lisagurl. What if you inherit rights from your past self just as you inherit everything else that was them? I guess in that respect we would be responsible for how our present actions affect our future selves as we create a legacy. Although if you inherit everything that was them then essentially you could say your current self contains your past self. In that was you are them, but also not them.

Hi Teri,
I'm not looking for an answer. I'm just looking for debate, and I'm getting some good stuff. Lisagurl has some particularly strong arguments which I really enjoy. Just trying out new ways of looking at things, trying to go beyond what we take as granted.
Mabye if I give you my own personal view it would give you some piece of mind. Personally I think we are still ourselves but we evolve in time. As such we are responsible for our past actions, and we are responsible for how our actions affect the future. I also believe in obligation to some extent. For example, in some circumstances you can be obligated to someones family for something your ancestors did to them. What if I'm only alive because an ancestor prospered at the expense of other people. I think I am partially obligated to those people to make amends of some kind because my exsistance comes about at their loss. I think though this obligation only extends so far.

Quote from: NickSister on September 10, 2007, 05:43:06 PM

Quote from: lisagurl on September 07, 2007, 10:31:07 AM
It seems you do not understand the rights you have today depend on the how you lived up to your responsibilities for your entire life.  if you are a new person then all your past bank accounts do now not belong to you. Can you see the next day depends on the last day the next year depends on the past year and death depends on birth.  Perhaps age and distance heal most wounds but the scars are there till death. If you apply for a Masters degree the school does not care when or what you got you Bachelor's degree in. They just want you to have the prerequisites for whatever classes you take. The important things are the details of the past and how you assemble them in the future not whether you changed you sex or perceive things differently.

Good argument lisagurl. What if you inherit rights from your past self just as you inherit everything else that was them? I guess in that respect we would be responsible for how our present actions affect our future selves as we create a legacy. Although if you inherit everything that was them then essentially you could say your current self contains your past self. In that was you are them, but also not them.

As such we are responsible for our past actions, and we are responsible for how our actions affect the future. I also believe in obligation to some extent. For example, in some circumstances you can be obligated to someones family for something your ancestors did to them. What if I'm only alive because an ancestor prospered at the expense of other people. I think I am partially obligated to those people to make amends of some kind because my exsistance comes about at their loss. I think though this obligation only extends so far.

well, yes, and then I think no: the obligation extends and continues to extend until the light has gone on - that that is how things are, connections within connections, one is in the tapestry, and there is no unraveling of, per se

I also think a person who says they have no responsibilities inherently {*this time around*?} is claiming to be a Freshly Minted Entity, Newly Born, Pure as the Driven Snow and all that rhythm, and, suffice to say for now, I Doubt It

Quote{this doesn't even take into consideration the idea of karma}

Now if you want to include beliefs we would be leaving Philosophy and entering spiritual. So many religions have a smörgåsbord of "after life" and dogma attached to sin.