Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 07:26:54 AM
These pills can be taken sublingually but would take quite a long time to dissolve so very inconvenient.

I tuck my micronised progesterone capsule behind my molars and it sits there without any thought or inconvenience as it dissolves. Maybe its just the shape of my teeth but I just stick it in a forget it.

Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 09:04:21 PM

SEX DETERMINANTS OF EXPERIMENTAL PANIC ATTACKS

It would be interesting to hear how progesterone levels in postmenopausal women affect this. I am guessing, based on the fact that men with a lower P level that is constant and the references to withdrawal from P, that it is the reduction rather than low level which causes issues. 

Quote from: AnnaCannibal on June 18, 2014, 06:38:29 PM
Sure there is the possibility of side effects, but isn't that the same for all long term medicine use

Some side-effects are worse and greater with some medicines versus others. In the case of bio-identical progesterone and estrogen, the side-effects are much reduced due to the fact that these are exactly what our bodies produce and if taken non-orally, these side-effects reduce even more. If you read the leaflet that comes with Prometrium or that is available online, you will notice that they say
http://www.merck.ca/assets/en/pdf/products/Prometrium-PM_E.pdf

"OVERDOSAGE

Symptoms
The toxicity of progesterone is very low. Symptoms that may occur are: nausea, vomiting,
somnolence and dizziness."

So, really, at least in my opinion, estradiol and progesterone aren't medicine. They're more like a copy of what our bodies produce manufactured in the form of a pill, gel, etc. All medicines aren't the same.

Quote from: AnnaCannibalWhereas, progesterins are less well known and less studied so all the longterm risks still remain relatively unknown.

Not true. There have been hundreds, thousands of studies on progestins, progesterone. They have been extensively studied. Women's bodies have been producing progesterone in significant amounts for as long as our species exists, thus millions of years. This, I would say, is long-term enough. Studies have been done on the effect of progesterone and other progestins in humans, animals, etc.

Quote from: AnnaCannibalThe only experience I can offer is being on spiro and finasteride

Finasteride side-effects are usually exactly those side-effects we seek like a reduction in erections or perhaps a reduction in libido. It can also reduce allopregnanolone levels which can increase anxiety but so far, have come across very little evidence pointing to this. Spiro can reduce blood pressure too much or cause an imbalance in electrolytes leading to things like leg cramps, heart palpitations, dizziness, dehydration, tiredness. But, if monitored, if dose is gradually increased and if you drink enough water and eat salty when you crave it, you should be ok. I personally don't like that drug though very much.

Quote from: Hikari on June 18, 2014, 06:55:25 PM
What I mean is, I switched off of spiro because it made me very dizzy

Progesterone can do that too, especially if taken orally, with food! But, the effect is usually temporary, no more than 30-45 minutes. I'm experiencing this effect as we speak!!! LOL.

Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 07:30:15 PM
Sometimes, information is pounded into our heads so hard that it's hard to accept that the established beliefs could be wrong. What if I told you there was no link between saturated fats and heart disease? Sounds, "crazy", huh?

Very true! There seems to be no link indeed. I eat saturated fats regularly.  They seem to actually be quite beneficial to our health contrary to popular belief.

The Cholesterol Myths by Uffe Ravnskov
http://www.charlescoty.com/user/The%20Cholesterol%20Myths%20by%20Uffe%20Ravnskov.pdf
http://www.ravnskov.nu/cholesterol.htm
http://www.ravnskov.nu/myth9.htm
References
http://www.ravnskov.nu/weblit.htm#002

Good Calories, Bad Calories Gary Taubes, 2007 (FULL BOOK!) If it doesn't work the first time, try again by clicking to download, be patient, it might take a few minutes
http://ebookbrowsee.net/good-calories-bad-calories-gary-taubes-pdf-d411337273

Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 07:41:12 PM
(2)That FINASTERIDE and Dutasteride which are both alpha-reductase inhibitors NOT ONLY PREVENT TESTOSTERONE from being converted to DHT but ALSO PREVENT PROGESTERONE from being converted to ALLOPREGNANOLONE

More specifically, prevents conversion of progesterone to 5-alpha dihydroprogesterone which is the precursor to allopregnanolone responsible for combating anxiety and making us feel relaxed.

http://img.springerimages.com/Images/Springer/PUB=Springer-Verlag-Berlin-Heidelberg/JOU=00213/VOL=2006.186/ISU=3/ART=2005_185/MediaObjects/WATER_213_2005_185_Fig1_HTML.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopregnanolone
" Anxiety and depression are common side effects of 5α-reductase inhibitors such as finasteride and dutasteride, and they are believed to be caused, in part, by the prevention of the endogenous production of allopregnanolone."

Interestingly, if you take finasteride/dutasteride and progesterone, sedative effects commonly associated with progesterone (due to allopregnanolone) are significantly reduced or eliminated.

Quote from: JessicaH(4) When the PROGESTERONE METABOLISM/CONVERSION IS BLOCKED YOU WOULD EXPECT SUCH SYMPTOMS and you would expect a BUILDUP of Pregnenolone as the conversion process is backed up by the inhibition of the enzymes processing Progesterone.

Actually, that doesn't make sense because progesterone cannot be converted back to pregnenolone.
http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/toxchick/images/S/steroidogenesis.gif. Rather, you should expect increased progesterone concentrations and perhaps increased concentrations of all the other hormones immediately coming after progesterone like deoxycorticosterone (increases water retention), 17-hydroxy progesterone and other metabolites not shown that are probably much less active and potent.

Quote from: JessicaHhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24717976

It's odd that pregnenolone, 3 alpha diol and 3 beta diol would increase and that P (progesterone) would reduce since if anything inhibiting 5 alpha reductase should increase progesterone levels, decrease 3 alpha and beta diol and not affect pregnenolone at all. I checked all the pathways. I need to read the entire study to clarify this matter.

Quote from: Jill F on June 18, 2014, 08:43:14 PM
I take a cycle of topical micronized progesterone gel.  Mah bewbs thank me.

Have you checked your progesterone levels? This is prepared by a compounding pharmacy, right? Where do you apply it? Do you rotate site of application? Do you notice any tiredness, drowsiness from it? What about bloating? I think you mentioned you felt sometimes irritable on it, right?

Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 09:04:21 PM
It is not surprising that many men who try one of the two DHT blockers also report experiences of anxiety and panic attacks and nightmares, as well. See this article:

http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/hmbci.2010.1.issue-2/hmbci.2010.010/hmbci.2010.010.xml

Link does not work.

Quote from: JessicaHhttp://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763414000591

Very interesting indeed! I was actually very much thinking about this very issue in recent days, suggesting that negative symptoms sometimes associated with the use of progesterone may have more to do with the drop in the allopregnanolonone levels due to short half-life than progesterone so that it would be better to administer progesterone in such a way as to have more steady levels of progesterone and hence allopregnanolone. But, I've come across negative feedback even in women who take progesterone three to four times daily and take it non-orally where levels are more steady. So, I'm really not sure if this holds true. Perhaps, in those women, levels fluctuate much more.

Quote from: JessicaHAnd we at the Gender Research Group must add that those differences in Allopregnanolone also make all the different in the world in Transgender Transitioning and Emotional Balance.

Is this your statement or a quote from an article? Can you elaborate? Have they measured allopregnanolone levels in transgendered women and found out how they relate to their well-being?

Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 09:04:56 PM
Wiley Protocol?

http://www.thewileyprotocol.com/about-the-wiley-protocolr.html

Quote from: teeg on June 18, 2014, 10:05:43 PM
Cycling progesterone is uncertain to me. I'm unsure if it's the progesterone by itself, or the cycling of the progesterone that creates the positive effects people report.

It seems to me that taking progesterone cyclically would lead to PMS withdrawal symptoms from the drop in progesterone/allopregnanolone levels and/or from the anti-estrogenic effect of progesterone and would increase cell apotopsis and proliferation rate, potentially increasing the risk of cancer. 

Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 08:45:31 AM
Have you checked your progesterone levels? This is prepared by a compounding pharmacy, right? Where do you apply it? Do you rotate site of application? Do you notice any tiredness, drowsiness from it? What about bloating? I think you mentioned you felt sometimes irritable on it, right?

Never checked the levels.  I hear it's a pretty short half-life anyway and I cycle off and on.  Actually I don't give a flying crap as long as it goes right to my rack, which needs all the help it can get.  Tests aren't cheap, and I figure numbers are irrelevant at this point since my nuts are not much longer for this world. 

I apply the P to the inside of the forearms.  I don't get noticeably tired nor drowsy from it, but I usually take it in the morning and have coffee and dutasteride at about the same time.  I tried it before bed, but I didn't notice a difference.  I do bloat a bit sometimes though.  Irritable sometimes at the end of the cycle, but the last cycle I was pretty chill the whole time.  I just rack the effects up (get it?) to the endo voodoo and don't try to overthink it.  Right now I'm just happy that my f***ing balls get tossed in a waste bin next month and all I will ever have to take is E and P from now on.  Actually I'm thinking of getting a E pellet implant so I don't have to remember to take anything but the P cycle.  I space on taking E sometimes when my schedule gets interrupted, and if I forget two days in a row, you don't want the Jill monster anywhere near you. 

Quote from: Paige on June 18, 2014, 10:53:22 PM
Hi Jessica,
Thanks for posting this.  So just to be clear, I took finasteride for a couple years about 10 years ago, so I may still be suffering these effects?  How would you know if this problem lingers or even if I have the problem?  Would taking micronized progesterone help solve this if I did have the problem or would it not be metabolized properly anyway?
Thanks,
Paige 

Are you depressed or anxious? Do you have any of the other symptoms listed like muscle stiffness, tremors, etc? If not, then I don't see a problem. Perhaps, if you tried progesterone after discussing this with your doctor, you would know if it was beneficial for you. Paige, just a word of advice, don't take everything we say here as gospel...do your own research, use your common sense and talk to other girls, their experiences as well as doctors treating transgender girls. Don't just blindly accept what anyone (including me) says.

Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 11:11:50 PM
It's hard to say how long the effect lasts but  "the results demonstrate is that the diminiution of progesterone by the finasteride (and also by dutasteride) will lead to a lowering of allopregnanolone which controls anxiety (in a characteristic U shaped curve...so that either too much or too little allopregnanolone will cause you to suffer).

According to this study...

Psychopharmacology (2006) 187:209–221
Allopregnanolone concentration and mood—a bimodal association
in postmenopausal women treated with oral progesterone


"During progesterone treatment, women had significantly
higher negative mood scores when allopregnanolone
serum concentration was in the range of 1.5–2 nmol/
l compared to lower and higher concentrations."

"Mood effects during progesterone treatment
seem to be related to allopregnanolone concentration, and a
bimodal association between allopregnanolone and adverse
mood is evident."

If one looks at this study more in depth (I have the entire study), one notices that very low levels of alloP and higher levels of alloP are associated with positive mood and less negative mood whereas in the middle is where it gets problematic and the reason I think this happens is because in those women, levels drop and there is withdrawal from higher alloP whereas in those women with higher alloP, levels remain high enough so that there are no withdrawal symptoms and finally in those women where levels are very low, levels are too low to have any significant effect on mood.

Quote from: JessicaH on June 18, 2014, 11:15:57 PM
It's not suggested to take sublingually and made to swallow. A good alternative would be to have doc prescribe it in a cream from a compounding pharmacy or find a Wiley Protocol provider. Their stuff is good but a little on the expensive side. Wiley highly advocates cycling.

I'm still skeptical about whether cream really does a good job at delivering enough progesterone into the blood when applied to the skin. Mucosal tissue would perhaps be more effective but would levels fluctuate much in the same way as sublingual and if they did, that wouldn't be very good if we want steadier levels.

As far as cycling goes, I have yet to see a study that shows that cycling hormones is better than taking them continuously and if anything, cycling is associated with many negatives that I mentioned several times before and is not natural.

This claim from http://www.thewileyprotocol.com/press/press-releases/162.html
"A combined cyclic regiment with monthly bleeding creates a lower cardiovascular risk for women than continuous-combined estrogen/ progesterone therapy, which does not cause a menstrual bleed." is misleading as the progestogens that were used were ...from the actual study
http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/21/2660.full

"type of progestagen: Norethisterone acetate (NETA), Medroxyprogesterone (MPA), Levonorgestrel (Lng), Cyproterone acetate (CPA);" progestogens known to increase cardiovascular risk as opposed to bio-identical progesterone which was not reviewed in this study.

Also the estrogen used was "(g) type of oestrogen: conjugated equine oestrogen, non-conjugated oestrogen;" only sometimes bio-identical.

So, this study did not review the effects of continuous bio-identical estradiol/progesterone versus cyclical bio-identical estradiol/progesterone. Cyclical is obviously better when you use estrogens and progestins that are potentially harmful to one's health because you are less exposed to them!

This is why I urge everyone to not just accept claims and make conclusions but to carefully examine the evidence at hand and then find out for yourself.

Quote from: Hikari on June 19, 2014, 05:07:22 AM
I am a bit skeptical because I have been taking dutasteride for a while now and I seem to have no ill effect at all. In fact I am a pretty chill person without much panic or stress compared to lots of other transwomen (after all transitsion is a stressful thing).

From what those posts seem to say the action of blocking the 5ar itself causes these massive changes but it can't be all that simple because I felt no change while I once had a friend describe finasteride as suicide in pill form due to how depressed it made her... But upon stopping it she got better too.

I am quite self aware and if anything my general mood has increased since dutasteride.

Different people react differently. We metabolize drugs differently, we have lower or higher sensitivity. Genetics, etc.

Being skeptical is healthy.

Quote from: Ashey on June 19, 2014, 07:12:57 AM
I heard great things about bicalutamide, but when I tried it for three months, it did nothing to suppress my testosterone

Bicalutamide does not suppress testosterone, it only blocks it except in the brain. Testosterone actually increases in response to blocking it. Sex drive is maintained, so are spontaneous erections and even I think, sperm production. No use in measuring testosterone levels while on it. They won't be lower, they'll be higher but so will estradiol levels since testosterone naturally converts to estradiol in the body. Bicalutamide nonetheless strongly blocks the action of testosterone and other androgens so that the end result is less androgenization and increased feminization. Tests cannot measure the extent to which androgen is blocked. You will simply feel it and notice it with time.

Quote from: Asheyand I got bad anxiety attacks.

Anxiety can also be caused by T inhibition (due to bicalutamide) and not enough estrogen to replace it.

Quote from: AsheyAnd since switching back to spiro, I'm getting even less of the side-effects than before.

Spiro is a much less potent (effective) anti-androgen than bicalutamide so that your T may have been stronger on it causing you to feel better. More T, less anxiety...perhaps.

Quote from: AsheyI also got off the provera

Provera is known to cause anxiety/depression in some, sometimes quite strong. Perhaps, this was the culprit and not bicalutamide.

Quote from: AsheyBut now I realize it had a positive impact on my sex-drive

Provera is mildly androgenic so this might be the reason why. Also, some women report increased sex drive/libido on bio-identical progesterone as well.

Quote from: Ashey on June 19, 2014, 07:12:57 AM
I was getting regular periods on it

You have periods?

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on June 19, 2014, 07:34:48 AM
I tuck my micronised progesterone capsule behind my molars and it sits there without any thought or inconvenience as it dissolves. Maybe its just the shape of my teeth but I just stick it in a forget it.

Still impractical in my opinion and anyways, you probably end up swallowing some. Easier to just swallow and probably not much difference in effectiveness. Progesterone does not appear to harm liver and does not affect coagulation.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on June 19, 2014, 07:34:48 AM
I am guessing, based on the fact that men with a lower P level that is constant and the references to withdrawal from P, that it is the reduction rather than low level which causes issues.

Exactly my thought too!

Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 09:12:53 AM
Are you depressed or anxious? Do you have any of the other symptoms listed like muscle stiffness, tremors, etc? If not, then I don't see a problem. Perhaps, if you tried progesterone after discussing this with your doctor, you would know if it was beneficial for you. Paige, just a word of advice, don't take everything we say here as gospel...do your own research, use your common sense and talk to other girls, their experiences as well as doctors treating transgender girls. Don't just blindly accept what anyone (including me) says.

Hi KayXo,
I don't have any muscle stiffness out of the normal and no tremors.   Well moderately depressed that I'm not able to transition, and I can't see a way to change that in my current circumstances.  Anxious,  I have always had some of that, but it's better than when I was younger.  You're probably right I don't have a problem with this.  I was just curious because I had never heard of this side effect before.
Thanks so much for the advice. 
Take care,
Paige 

Quote from: Jill F on June 19, 2014, 09:12:36 AM
Never checked the levels.

Only problem is, say, it doesn't really do anything in terms of blood levels, raise them significantly and you pay for the cream for nothing, what then? Money thrown out the window! But, as you stated, it seems to have an effect, affecting breasts and mood. So, hopefully, as it seems to be the case, it's money well spent.