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Progesterone

Started by Riley Skye, May 27, 2013, 09:41:59 AM

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Shantel

Don't know if I ever posted this here, getting so I do repeats, anyway here goes!

Essential Hormones for Breast Development
Last Updated: May 04, 2011 | By Louise Tremblay

The breasts are hormonally regulated tissues that respond to a number of hormones circulating within the body. The developmental cycle of the breasts begins in puberty, and extends to changes during pregnancy. According to the Ohio State University Medical Center (OSUMC), the breasts do not fully mature until a woman has produced milk. During puberty, the breasts undergo periods of cell proliferation and division, which causes the breasts to enlarge and develop.
Estrogen is the hormone that helps control breast cell proliferation and division. According to OSUMC, breast development during puberty begins after the ovaries start to secrete estrogen. This accumulates fat within the connective tissue of the breasts, causing the breasts to enlarge.

Estrogen is also released during the first half of the menstrual cycle, which enlarges the breast glands. Once estrogen levels decrease following ovulation, the breast returns to its normal state.
Progesterone is a steroid hormone that works together with estrogen to regulate breast development. According to the University of Virginia Health System, progesterone levels are low during the first half of the menstrual cycle, but contribute to breast development during the second half of the cycle, once estrogen levels are lowered.

Progesterone contributes to development of the breast by signaling for the formation of milk glands. Estrogen first induces enlargement of tissues within the breast, and progesterone ensures these tissues develop proper functioning within the breast to aid in breast development.

As a girl approaches adolescence, the first outward signs of breast development begin to appear. When the ovaries start to secrete estrogen, fat in the connective tissue begins to accumulate causing the breasts to enlarge. The duct system also begins to grow. Usually the onset of these breast changes is also accompanied by the appearance of pubic hair and hair under the arms.
Once ovulation and menstruation begin, the maturing of the breasts begins with the formation of secretory glands at the end of the milk ducts. The breasts and duct system continue to grow and mature, with the development of many glands and lobules. The rate at which breasts grow varies greatly and is different for each young woman.
Female breast developmental stages
Stage 1   (Preadolescent) only the tip of the nipple is raised
Stage 2   Buds appear, breast and nipple raised, and the areola (dark area of skin that surrounds the nipple) enlarges
Stage 3   Breasts are slightly larger with glandular breast tissue present
Stage 4   The areola and nipple become raised and form a second mound above the rest of the breast
Stage 5   Mature adult breast; the breast becomes rounded and only the nipple is raised
Each month, women experience fluctuations in hormones that make up the normal menstrual cycle. Estrogen, which is produced by the ovaries in the first half of the menstrual cycle, stimulates the growth of milk ducts in the breasts. The increasing level of estrogen leads to ovulation halfway through the cycle, and then the hormone progesterone takes over in the second half of the cycle, stimulating the formation of the milk glands. These hormones are believed to be responsible for the cyclical changes such as the swelling, pain, and tenderness that many women experience in their breasts just before menstruation.
During menstruation, many women also experience changes in breast texture, with breasts feeling particularly lumpy. These are the glands in the breast enlarging to prepare for a possible pregnancy. If pregnancy does not occur, the breasts return to normal size. Once menstruation begins, the cycle begins again.
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teeg

Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 07:26:54 AM
These pills can be taken sublingually but would take quite a long time to dissolve so very inconvenient. Or you could just squeeze out the content of the pill onto the area under your tongue for quicker effect. But this could end up being messy and there would be highs and lows which can have negative effects neurologically speaking. Some compounding pharmacies prepare subligual troches containing progesterone but like I said, I'm not too sure constant highs and lows are good for us mentally.
I didn't think about with such a short half life that sublingual administration might cut that down even further...

But what about taking micronized progesterone orally? I thought I heard something about the way liver breaks down micronized stuff? Sorry for how vague that question is...
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KayXo

I guess orally right now is the most convenient and most common way of prescribing. Pellets could be better and provide steadier levels. But, they're expensive and maybe too steady could desensitize cells.

I take them orally for now, it's ok. I might try applying some on my inner labia to see how much of a difference it makes, if any. We'll see...
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Ginny

Sorry I can only read abstracts of most articles, because I can't constantly pay to read full ones. So lacking sample size and methods used. Also I know most of the articles I posted are a bit dated, but I wasn't finding what I was looking for in newer studies.
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1999
http://www.clinicaltherapeutics.com/article/S0149-2918%2800%2988267-3/abstract   
My take: That E+P should be combined to best get synergistic benefits. States that synthetics carry harmful side effects, whereas micronized's main side effect is drowsiness (to which I can attest to when I took a gel capsule off my regular schedule). Then even states that it should be taken before bed to negate this (since you're already supposed to be sleepy).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2012
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/13697137.2012.669624
My take: That non-oral E should be combined with miconized P for neutral to beneficial gains.  These gains are in terms of health risks.
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1997
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9116778
My take: Study shows that micronized progesterone was shown to risk patients with disease. However, I would like to point out that the women given the micronized progesterone were given a ridiculous amount of 900-1200mg/day! At this point I would wager that you are seeing a toxicity effect of a possible overdose. But again, I don't know what their blood levels were showing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1993
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8213224
My take: Micronized progesterone does not significantly effect the liver.
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2006 - A Nice Article I found
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/apr2006_report_progesterone_01.htm
What I would like to point out is the chart on the right about the 28 menstrual cycle.  This graph and the one that combines E+P+T should not be looked at just for the picture.  There are actually three separate Y-axis to the single X-axis (this is important) in the textbook version of these graphs. Always make sure you're looking at a graph correctly as I could manipulate a picture for a graph however I wanted if I change the axis to perhaps one being in units of 200 vs 100 vs 1000 or a log or ln scale.  Just thought I should mention that.


GtG to work now.  I'm finding it so interesting how this thread has seemed to explode the past several days!
~Jenny

PS. There was a post while I was typing:
Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 11:58:50 AM
I guess orally right now is the most convenient and most common way of prescribing. Pellets could be better and provide steadier levels. But, they're expensive and maybe too steady could desensitize cells.

I take them orally for now, it's ok. I might try applying some on my inner labia to see how much of a difference it makes, if any. We'll see...

If getting pellets, do not go past 1 pellet, as from what my endo has seen the body has a tendency to try and reject the dosage. As for cost (yes they are expensive), though not sure how they compare to IM or TransDerm? (I get the max E+P combo and the operating cost along with the pellets costs me around $1.2-1.4k every 3 months).
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kira21 ♡♡♡

Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 10:12:07 AM
Still impractical in my opinion and anyways, you probably end up swallowing some. Easier to just swallow and probably not much difference in effectiveness. Progesterone does not appear to harm liver and does not affect coagulation.



Really? I am aware that I will swallow a fair deal, but as I understood it, absorption once swallowed was highly reduced, though I can't say I recall exactly where I read that. The box says to take it in this way or vaginally which limits me to one option. I suppose there is the possibility of taking it as a suppository, but if you find leaving it in your mouth to be a faff..... 

KayXo

Two ways you can find out if taking it this way is more effective vs. orally
1) take it orally for 30-60 days and compare how you feel, bodily effects OR/AND
2) measure levels of P in the blood when taking P transbucally vs orally.

I'm still on the fence about whether rectally, it is effective or not. But, it seems to be. You could also, if doctor allows, try squeezing the contents of the capsule onto the opening of your rectum (i.e. anus) and apply it there. This area is mucosal and should allow for effective delivery and absorption. But, levels might peak and drop quite quickly this way.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Ginny

Quote from: KayXo on June 19, 2014, 04:34:48 PM
Two ways you can find out if taking it this way is more effective vs. orally
1) take it orally for 30-60 days and compare how you feel, bodily effects OR/AND
2) measure levels of P in the blood when taking P transbucally vs orally.

I'm still on the fence about whether rectally, it is effective or not. But, it seems to be. You could also, if doctor allows, try squeezing the contents of the capsule onto the opening of your rectum (i.e. anus) and apply it there. This area is mucosal and should allow for effective delivery and absorption. But, levels might peak and drop quite quickly this way.

If there is too sharp of a spike in P, I believe T also spikes briefly. Sorry, only word of mouth from some Drs I know.
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kira21 ♡♡♡

my t level is at 0.1ng/ml with no blocker :-)

It normally takes a couple of hours for the progesterone to fully dissappear from my mouth. I don't get the sudden tiredness or woozyness that others mention.

jname

The NHS have changed their stance on progesterone?
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KayXo

Quote from: Jennifer.Alexandria on June 20, 2014, 12:09:14 AM
If there is too sharp of a spike in P, I believe T also spikes briefly. Sorry, only word of mouth from some Drs I know.

Hmmmm....not sure I buy into that unless you could eventually provide some proof of that with your doctor's cooperation, of course. :)

Progesterone does not appear to cause androgenization of any sort, if it did, imagine the repercussions on pregnant women whose levels are VERY high or on their female fetuses. I've not experienced masculinizing effects from taking progesterone, I've been on it for over 3 months . The same could be said of many other transwomen who I've read their feedback on it and who have taken it for quite a long time.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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KayXo

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on June 20, 2014, 02:01:28 AM
It normally takes a couple of hours for the progesterone to fully dissappear from my mouth. I don't get the sudden tiredness or woozyness that others mention.

Do you get tired at all on progesterone? Taking it this way, what are actual, for sure, effects you have noticed? How long have you been taking it for? How many times do you take it daily?

Perhaps, it just absorbs very slowly into the body and could account for why you don't get those effects.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Shantel

I use a topically applied progesterone oil for a week, beyond that I feel tired so one week a month is the cycle for me. When I raise my arms while looking in the mirror it does seem that my mammary gland mass has doubled in size since I started using it about a year ago. This cycled in conjunction with a full estrogen regimen seems to be making it happen. Prior to the first nine years on HRT the breast development was minimal like so many others experience, after nine years everything began to take off and once on progesterone the glandular mass became bigger as well.
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KayXo

Apart from being tired, do you notice any other negative symptoms? And in addition to breast growth, have you noticed any other positive improvements since last year?
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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kira21 ♡♡♡

Quote from: jname on June 20, 2014, 09:04:17 AM
The NHS have changed their stance on progesterone?

No they haven't.  I am still prescribed by another practitioner as a bridging measure until the gic take over.  They took over with what I was acquiring myself until the gic take over.

Quote from: KayXo on June 20, 2014, 10:35:48 AM
Do you get tired at all on progesterone? Taking it this way, what are actual, for sure, effects you have noticed? How long have you been taking it for? How many times do you take it daily?

Perhaps, it just absorbs very slowly into the body and could account for why you don't get those effects.


It's hard to tell as I usually feel tired.  I work long long hours and have lots of responsibilities outside of work.  Some days I work so much am in the house for four hours of sleep between shifts.  That happens about three times a week.  I haven't noticed the progesterone negatively affect my tiredness and in fact I cope with that better than I would have thought.  Funny considering my low t level which was 0.1 nmol/l on the reading I got yesterday. I take it in the morning. Really I would like to have a split dose morning and night.

The effects that I have that I attribute to progesterone are noticeable difference in mood and focus and secondarily what I believe is above average breast growth and good shape.

Shantel

Quote from: KayXo on June 20, 2014, 08:34:06 PM
Apart from being tired, do you notice any other negative symptoms? And in addition to breast growth, have you noticed any other positive improvements since last year?

I get an occasional leg cramp before getting out of bed in the morning that I'm wary of when I'm using it, but that may be attributable to the fact that older adults don't drink enough water and have coffee in the morning and sometimes during the day and maybe a few alcoholic beverages in the evenings which are all diuretics that will lead to dehydration and cramps. So if I wake up at night to go to the bathroom I make a point of drinking an 8 oz glass of water and the cramping problem seems to have diminished, though I think the progesterone somehow triggers it when I'm not well hydrated.
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KayXo

Progesterone appears to have diuretic properties, being about 4 x less potent, if I recally correctly than Spiro. So, this could be why...It exerts antimineralocorticoid properties.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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primrose

Quote from: A on May 29, 2013, 10:36:43 PM
but I do know that the transdermic gel, on top of being very expensive and not covered by insurance, was not made in doses high enough for trans women, and would almost require me to cover my whole body with it to be equivalent to a standard pill dose.

This is utter nonsense. Please, don't confuse people talking rubbish I'm on gel myself.
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KayXo

I think it depends. For some, gel works just fine. For others, it's just not enough.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Jill F

I just hit the gel myself for day 1 of my cycle.  C'mon bewbs...

So far the magic is working.  Slowly, mind you, but they do get more meaty, beaty, big and bouncy every time.

You will pry my progesterone from my cold, dead hand.
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Eva Marie

Quote from: Jill F on June 25, 2014, 10:34:00 AM
I just hit the gel myself for day 1 of my cycle.  C'mon bewbs...

So far the magic is working.  Slowly, mind you, but they do get more meaty, beaty, big and bouncy every time.

You will pry my progesterone from my cold, dead hand.

It is definitely a love/hate thing. I have been snapping at everyone and very short on patience/quick to irritate this cycle, and all that began on day 1 about 4 hours after taking the first pill. I'm still highly irritable today. My goal now is to get to the end of the week without getting fired for having a disagreeable attitude :laugh:

The boobs are responding nicely though  :)
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