Because I'm not ftm or mtf or cisgendered.  I'm not doing this for kicks or fun.  Androgyne is a blanket term encompassing several different identities.

And what you refer to is androgynous people, which is an appearance, not an identity. 

I feel like this.  We lack the language to express it.  I do not identify as a woman.  I do not identify as a man.  I identify as an androgyne (neutrois, one of the subcategories, is more accurate).  Why?  Because it is the only way I have to explain how I have felt since early childhood.  Lost in a sea of gender.

Quote from: aineko on September 05, 2007, 09:09:03 PM

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
Okay, I don't understand something and that something bothers me.  What don't I understand?  If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far?  if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system?  I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity.  The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for.  IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time.  I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men.  When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior.  Why?  because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that . 


tink

P.S.  and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread.  I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words.  Let's have other members answer.  I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I?  Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.

search/replace androgyne with TS, and you just rolled back the clock about 50 years.
Or with gay/lesbian.
Maybe even hippy.

Is it fun to be such a hypocrite?

If the reason of this thread is to express your anger towards those of us who don't see androgyne as a gender identity by name calling, then I would advise anyone to refrain from posting under this thread.

tink


P.S.  If this type of behavior continues, I will lock this thread for good.

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:20:25 PM

Quote from: aineko on September 05, 2007, 09:09:03 PM

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
Okay, I don't understand something and that something bothers me.  What don't I understand?  If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far?  if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system?  I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity.  The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for.  IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time.  I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men.  When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior.  Why?  because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that . 


tink

P.S.  and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread.  I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words.  Let's have other members answer.  I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I?  Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.

search/replace androgyne with TS, and you just rolled back the clock about 50 years.
Or with gay/lesbian.
Maybe even hippy.

Is it fun to be such a hypocrite?

If the reason of this thread is to express your anger to those of us who don't see androgyne as a gender identity by name calling, then I would advise anyone to refrain from posting under this thread.

tink

She's right, Tink.  Why can't you see that?  50 years ago, transitioning to female would have been something looked down on deeply.  Just like you all look down on me now.  100 years ago?  Worse.  400 years ago?  You would have been BURNED AT THE STAKE.

She's raising a valid point, so please refrain from bapping people on the noses just for challenging you.  I don't recall any namecalling.  Hypocrite IS an accurate descriptor here.

PS: Warning people away from my thread is REAL mature.

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:20:25 PM
P.S.  If this type of behavior continues, I will lock this thread for good.

Also, threadlock because you don't like being called to task on your actions?

Nice.

hey Tay,

i think some may not understand your situation is as the same as general society not understanding ours, i.e., transgendered.

perhaps you'll have to do some ambassadorial duties on the subject. just from my point of view, with MTF, people can either mock us, or date us. But with andros, like Pat, the par excellance from SNL, people just don't know how to respond, and that creates confusion and suspicion.

but, we're all in the same boat and if some people can't understand your state of being, and esp. for those who are struggling with theirs (prob. most here on this board), then you'll know what kind of people you're dealing with.

finally, keep that andro chin up, and live to fight another day sister.. er.. brother... er... you. 

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:20:25 PM

Quote from: aineko on September 05, 2007, 09:09:03 PM

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
Okay, I don't understand something and that something bothers me.  What don't I understand?  If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far?  if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system?  I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity.  The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for.  IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time.  I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men.  When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior.  Why?  because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that . 


tink

P.S.  and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread.  I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words.  Let's have other members answer.  I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I?  Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.

search/replace androgyne with TS, and you just rolled back the clock about 50 years.
Or with gay/lesbian.
Maybe even hippy.

Is it fun to be such a hypocrite?

If the reason of this thread is to express your anger towards those of us who don't see androgyne as a gender identity by name calling, then I would advise anyone to refrain from posting under this thread.

tink


P.S.  If this type of behavior continues, I will lock this thread for good.

so I broke my post. ><

I call it like I see it, Tink. Androgynes hurt the same as we do, only we have the right to prove it?

So I should just believe your impossible-to-actually-verify claims to your own identity, right? In spite of the fact that a lot of society ISN'T accepting towards TS? Because somehow you're more special than an androgyne?

Amazingly. Blatant. Hypocrisy. By your own arguments, neither you nor I should be listened to on how we feel inside, because Nature doesn't allow it, because we're not meant to be that way. Because Society has a very hard time accepting it.

Roll back the clock 50 years, 60 years, we were fighting damn hard for the same rights you casually strip from Tay. Congratulations.

We can understand their experience. We know we're wrong. We know we hurt inside and need to fix ourselves. We can understand.

If you bloody well try, anyway.

Tay, it is nothing about you.  It is larger than that.  And even if some were willing to change their minds, it is not going to be an automatic process.  If you want me to be a real double-hypocrite about it, I could say what you want to hear, would that be better?

tink

No.  I want you to see your own hypocrisy.  Maybe let it sink in.  Maybe that can start to change something.  It's NOT automatic.  I have to fight for every. f-ing. mind. I. change.

Everyone.

And I will my whole life. 

I WILL challenge your views.  Why?  Because if I don't, there is no way you will ever change. 

I'm sick to death of the holier than thou attitude of some people on this site.  Put yourself in even your own head 100 years ago.  You'd be sitting EXACTLY where I am now.  Consider that.  Just think about it.

hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working

Posted on: September 05, 2007, 09:39:38 PM

---

hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working

I'm sorry but I don't think it has anything to do with the glorious "hollier than thou" attitude that everyone talks about.  Not understanding something doesn't make you hollier than anyone.  But I can certainly see why some think that way.

I believe that what you say is true, you are the only one who can do it; expecting people to agree with what we believe tends to be a waste of time sometimes.

tink

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:33:31 PM
Tay, it is nothing about you.  It is larger than that.  And even if some were willing to change their minds, it is not going to be an automatic process.  If you want me to be a real double-hypocrite about it, I could say what you want to hear, would that be better?

tink

Yes,  it is larger than that and it isn't an automatic process.  This isn't being shown in the national media at this very moment either. This is being dealt with HERE. I don't think it's so much about 'changing minds' either. Just open up your eyes to a slightly different view. It's not difficult to see the similarities and how hypocracy can sneak right in when you allow the almighty society to dictate what is and is not acceptable.

Candi, the ambassadorial approach hasn't worked thus far.  At all.  Because those who hold the opinion that I am not valid simply ignore my words or say "Oh dear.  I'm sorry you have the  blues.  Feel better." and move on.

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:42:01 PM
I'm sorry but I don't think it has nothing to do with the glorious "hollier than thou" attitude that everyone talks about.  Not understanding something doesn't make you hollier than anyone.  But I can certainly see why some think that way.

I believe that what you say is true, you are the only one who can do it; expecting people to agree with what we believe tends to be a waste of time sometimes.

tink

If you made an effort, you might actually be able to understand this. The problem is, you're not, you're dismissing it out of hand and closing your eyes to any recognition or attempt at understanding.

Your holier-than-thou attitude comes from the ignorance of the struggles that have had to be gone through to get our brand of GID recognized, but suddenly other brands are worthless?

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on September 05, 2007, 09:40:40 PM
hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working

Posted on: September 05, 2007, 09:39:38 PM

---

hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working

I concur.  Perhaps I should leave this thread alone now.

tink

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:42:01 PM
I'm sorry but I don't think it has anything to do with the glorious "hollier than thou" attitude that everyone talks about.  Not understanding something doesn't make you hollier than anyone.  But I can certainly see why some think that way.

I believe that what you say is true, you are the only one who can do it; expecting people to agree with what we believe tends to be a waste of time sometimes.

tink

And clearly, asking others to put themselves in your shoes, or even to look at themselves for a moment, in a larger context, is a waste of time.  I'll keep that in mind and go back to hiding under my rock.  After all.  I'm not real.  I'm just a challenge to society.  I don't need anything that other transgendered people need.  I should just suck it up, right?

After all, sucking it up works for every other trans person on this board, right?

Posted on: September 05, 2007, 09:45:11 PM

---

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:43:42 PM

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on September 05, 2007, 09:40:40 PM
hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working

Posted on: September 05, 2007, 09:39:38 PM

---

hmmm... i think the ambassadorial approach isn't working

I concur.  Perhaps I should leave this thread alone now.

tink

There are several things I would like to say here.  I typed out several of them, but this early in the game, getting banned will do me no good.  Suffice it to say, leaving this thread would be best for you if you are this intent on keeping your world-view of binary-worship intact.

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on September 05, 2007, 09:29:59 PM
hey Tay,


perhaps you'll have to do some ambassadorial duties on the subject. just from my point of view, with MTF, people can either mock us, or date us.

Now that I have identify as an androgyne it has made me come to respect TS's alot more(not that i didn;t respect them before.) If a girl I was going out with ever told me she was a MTF TS and I really loved/liked her I would except her. Afterall she is a woman and so what if she was a man before she discovered she was really meant to be a woman and she's living as the gender that she feels she is.

On the contrary I do understand. I think its not only a valid identity (which is who you friggin are), but also progressive thinking in my opinion.

Hi,

   I guess Tay has left the site.  I can try to take Tay's place in keeping the discussion going although I certainly cannot live up to the passion of Tay.

   The only things I ask is that people refrain from using words such as "hypocrite" and that the topic not be broadened so that it is no longer recognizable.   

   The question is Why don't you believe in androgyne as a gender identity? If you do not believe that androgyne is not a valid form of gender identity, please state why you believe as you do.

    There have been some good points made in previous posts within this thread.  If I ever get any sleep, maybe I'll pull them together and add them as a sort of summary post.

    Thank you for your continued participation and, please, remember we can disagree and discuss without hurting each other.


Thank you all,

Rebis

Quote from: Blanche on September 06, 2007, 03:19:31 AM

Quote from: Rebis on September 06, 2007, 02:51:59 AM
Hi,

   I guess Tay has left the site.  I can try to take Tay's place in keeping the discussion going although I certainly cannot live up to the passion of Tay.

Good grief! I hope you're more well-manered to interact with disagreement.  On second thoughts I'd better not get involved in fruitless conversations.  I've got nothing to gain by them.

As fruitless as this conversation may appear to be, it is a source of nutrition for those of us who are in the wilderness.   

Holy crap! I kind of wish I caught this topic before it got overheated.
I'm kind of doubtful anyone is still reading it but let me take a shot here.

Sure the term Androgyne is confusing in and of itself because it encompasses a number of different specific situations. Transexuals for the most part outwardly seem to have very similair concepts on which they are reacting, or atleast its summarized as such.(Mainly being born the wrong sex for their gender)

Androgynes as a whole follow a similiar concept (again its a blanket term with many specific situations underneath), and at the least should be treated with the same respect that is excepted to be shown to TS folk. The only significant difference is their proposed final destination in the gender journey. Sure people are going to hold back this respect because they don't get Androgynes quite yet. Foreign ideas take time to seep in.

One might ask well if its not a concrete situation, can it be an actual identity. Yes and no. Its not the true identity, the specific cases underneath are the specific identities but if you think its hard to understand a general concept of in the middle, just imagine having to keep up with all the specific identities. So androgynes understanding this on some level try to generalize the concept to make it easier to cope with. That way if you understand any of the specific identities underneath(fluid, intergendered, neutrosis), you could derive partial understanding of some of the others just by association under Androgyne.

And the comment was made that some of us claim to be both male and female at the same time and that seems contradicting of what an androgyne is. You'd probably be referring to the bigender folk with such a comment. Perhaps we are in fact incorrectly identified as androgynes as a result, but it is again only so we don't end up seperating ourselves into infinitely small groups of who we can relate to. If we're hurting the validity of the androgynes with our existance, let me set the record straight. What is commonly called bigender is actually more appropriately called two-spirit and though usually manifests directly related to gender is at its core a spirtual state where two spirits cohabitate within one body. This situation has been around as far back as the native americans and concievably further so. Again maybe too complex for this topic but that leads me to......

You really can't convince people of anything if they don't want to listen. That being said, if you don't understand what someone is experiencing or what they identify as or with, the best thing you could do for them is try to understand who and what they are. Ask questions. Who knows, you might find the understanding they deserve.


Mia and Marq
Thank you all who have taken the time to ask me questions of  the time I've been here.
You don't know how much it means to me that you're reaching out to listen to us
I hope each of you who has walks away with a little extra insight into the world

Oh yeah and thanks for actually reading this far.
Shows you haven't given up on the topic and thats important