QuoteMoreover, it has a LOT to do with how MOST cisgendered people view those of us who aren't especially 'passable'. This stuff about transpeople being so much harder on themselves is a copout. It's cisgendered people who pass laws marginalizing us, cisgendered people who might not want their children taught by us and cisgendered people who might not be able to deal with having a relationship with us because that would make them 'gay.' However snotty people get on transforums, it's nothing compared to how the cisgendered world deals with those it can't easily absorb.

Wow... I've been busy... and I didn't even know it.

Please realize not ALL cisgendered people are out to "get you"  Not even MOST of them are.

SOME cisgendered people are here to SUPPORT you....

Quote from: regina on September 03, 2007, 03:36:33 PM

Quote from: Alison on September 03, 2007, 03:30:51 PM

QuoteIt's cisgendered people who pass laws marginalizing us, cisgendered people who might not want their children taught by us and cisgendered people who might not be able to deal with having a relationship with us because that would make them 'gay.' However snotty people get on transforums, it's nothing compared to how the cisgendered world deals with those it can't easily absorb.

Wow... I've been busy... and I didn't even know it.

Please realize not ALL cisgendered people are out to "get you"

SOME cisgendered people are here to SUPPORT you.

Hun, why don't try reading my post instead of projecting some lame over-generalization onto what I wrote. I didn't write "all cisgendered people are out to get me" I said it is, in fact, cisgendered people, not transpeople who do the most damage in terms of violence, legal strictures and marginalization of transpeople. Last time I looked, there are virtually zero transpeople in the government or in positions of power.  And what I was responding to here is the endless whining many people have on this forum about how mean transpeople are to them and how supportive cisgendered people are.

Gina M.

Regina I did read your post, I edited my post right before you posted to include MOST ...

The thing is?  Why does it matter if these people are cisgendered or transgenderd or other?   Leave it at "people in government pass laws"  etc...

I feel awfully vilified on Susan's sometimes for being cisgendered.

And all I'm trying to do is support.

I think its unfortunate that you feel that opinions that are different from yours "water down" a thread.

I'm locking this topic until further notice....

tink

Posted on: September 03, 2007, 04:06:21 PM

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This thread is being unlocked.....Please remember the site rules before posting.  Thank you.

SITE RULES

Quote from: Site Rules10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.

15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.

tink

i do belive there is an unfair requirement made to people in this community to somehow know how someone wishest to be treated, and woe betide you if you mess up, you should know better...
and i think cis-gender people are unfairly assumed to be rude, transphobic, and ignorant.
there is more ignorance in this community, id wager.
R

"Re: Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female?"

Well yes I do, just as anyone else would.  Lets face it what we see can be totally different from what is actual.  Perception is in the eye of the beholder and there is really nothing that we can do about it.  There is a driver at work who insists on being called "Black Jack" and not seeing this person others would conjure up a mental picture of who this "Black Jack" might look like.  Similarly when we are told that this person is a man or a woman and the picture before us contradicts this, it creates confusion therefore it's understandable that errors will be made.  Much of the time this is unintentional, just human nature kicking in.

Which brings up another point.  I truly feel that it is up to us to prepare ourselves for full time living.  If we don't then we should also be prepared to accept that there are going to be mistakes with pronouns and the like.  Often there has to be compromise with all parties involved and if we are not prepared to do that then failure will not be far behind.

Steph

   I think I'm doing the work in handling my preconceptions and expectations better.  I only met MtF's in the past year when I was going to Boston.  So, even though I'm gender variant myself, I had to work on how I see and think about people in a very new way for me.  I believe it has been one of the greatest experiences of my life in terms of growing as a person.

  I was really worried about messing up, but I think it is because I don't want to hurt someone's feelings by even just appearing to be uncomfortable around them.  As time passes, I think of it less.  I am becoming much more comfortable with seeing people as their target sex even if they fall short of "passing".  I just hope that I never make anyone feel uncomfortable.

  It's strange, but I have a feeling that I've met FtM's off and on over the years, but just didn't know it.  I recently realized that I don't behave one way around females and another way around males, except that maybe around males I won't talk too much.

  This has nothing to do with prejudice.  It's just a learning experience due to the relatively new phenomenon of people actually trying to live their lives honestly and the rest of us being unprepared by our own life experiences.

Just because someone doesn't look like what you would like them to look in that gender, doesn't mean that they are not of that gender. I really don't like it when people pass judgement on others because "they" don't think they look right. What, I'm suppose to go out and get all this surgery, just because I don't look like what others want me to look like. Hmmm, I read about someone in history who thought the whole human race should have blond hair and blue eyes.
Sheila

Quote from: Steph on September 05, 2007, 06:57:05 AM
"Re: Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female?"

Well yes I do, just as anyone else would.  Lets face it what we see can be totally different from what is actual.  Perception is in the eye of the beholder and there is really nothing that we can do about it.  There is a driver at work who insists on being called "Black Jack" and not seeing this person others would conjure up a mental picture of who this "Black Jack" might look like.  Similarly when we are told that this person is a man or a woman and the picture before us contradicts this, it creates confusion therefore it's understandable that errors will be made.  Much of the time this is unintentional, just human nature kicking in.

Which brings up another point.  I truly feel that it is up to us to prepare ourselves for full time living.  If we don't then we should also be prepared to accept that there are going to be mistakes with pronouns and the like.  Often there has to be compromise with all parties involved and if we are not prepared to do that then failure will not be far behind.

Steph

I concur totally, Steph

tink

nobody is passing judgement, but one of the first things people do, when meeting someone, is identify if thier male or female, and the conversation goes from there. its human nature. if this doesnt match, its hard to fix, but MOST will try to.
what our eyes tell us is a powerful message, we arnt TRYING to be rude, or judge people, sometimes it just happens, and im sorry for being human if i make mistakes....
R

Quote from: Steph on September 05, 2007, 06:57:05 AM
Which brings up another point.  I truly feel that it is up to us to prepare ourselves for full time living.

Steph

Would you kindly share some of the specifics of what it means to you when you say "prepare ourselves"?

ive never had a pronoun mistake from someone who didnt know me before... anyone ive met since hasnt known about my history it seems...
R

I have to admit that I am one of those people who didn't used to be too accepting of people who looked like men in dresses. I knew someone who transitioned about 15 years ago and I just could not wrap my brain around why someone would want to be a woman so ugly. I made every effort to use the correct pronouns and be friendly. When she hooked with another woman a few years later I did ask her why she bothered. She pointed out that it was not about the sex and I did understand. But I remember, years ago, when Milton Berle wore a dress on early TV it was a joke and we were supposed to laugh and I still had that feeling years later. I tried not to actually laugh but I felt that way.

Fast forward to now: I recently watched TransAmerica. In fact, I watched it a couple of times. A friend of one of the main characters does look like a man in a dress and I thought she was cute! All my prejudice on this subject went out the window. So, I am thinking that anyone's views can change given sufficient provocation.

...why someone would want to be a woman so ugly.

¡Aye Carumba! that's cold... lol.. i've got to use this line in my next trangendered social!

.:~evil grin~:.

Quote from: Ellen Marie on September 05, 2007, 07:56:00 PM

Quote from: Steph on September 05, 2007, 06:57:05 AM
Which brings up another point.  I truly feel that it is up to us to prepare ourselves for full time living.

Steph

Would you kindly share some of the specifics of what it means to you when you say "prepare ourselves"?

My guess would be to do whatever you can to pass as well as possible. Which will differ from person to person. And if you can't or won't do what it takes pass, to be prepared for how society will view you.

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 12:37:15 AM

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Quote from: Sheila on September 05, 2007, 12:09:48 PM
Just because someone doesn't look like what you would like them to look in that gender, doesn't mean that they are not of that gender. I really don't like it when people pass judgement on others because "they" don't think they look right. What, I'm suppose to go out and get all this surgery, just because I don't look like what others want me to look like. Hmmm, I read about someone in history who thought the whole human race should have blond hair and blue eyes.
Sheila

That's a bit harsh. It's not about what we would WANT people to look like; last I checked, this was not a dating thread.
It's not even about looking like the average man or woman.
Men can still have feminine features and women masculine features and STILL look their gender.
It's about fitting into the male or female range looks-wise.

:icon_flower:Aloha all, lots of feelings in here.
  11:00pm, Hawaii. Nero you hit it were it`s been hurting and keeping me awake all week/ month/ year, no wait, life. Did you see Carrie? " There all going to laugh at you," I hope one day I can silance that seen in my head.

    When I have come in contact in the past I have noticed I am talking to a woman and wondered if I was like them (denial for safety) I worry heavaly all the time how I`m going to be treated when I am only trying to be a good parent and wife. For me really I cannot live on not seeing myself and not being seen as myself. When I see myself you all will to on here till then I am her in my avitar,
  I am the dalphin playing like a child in the pool
  I am one with the ocean/ water and it`s life
  I am Manu, the shark preying on Mahi mahi
  I am The water and it`s rain making the soothing music to calm life
  I am the air wanting to fly free and circulate the earth
  I am Striving to be what is free

   I think my transition is feuled by how society treats me as a man everytime, everyday, everwere. I am too tired too give it back. I just act as I feel in order to get through my work day and ignore the comments the best I can. It was great when I was young they really thought I was a pretty girl. I remember strangers asking, "why do you cut her hair?" questions. Mom, "He`s a boy"  stranger," he`s too pretty to be a boy". LOL

  I could go on too far but I am mostly into the edjucation I can get in my evenings here. You are all so wonderful,  Mahalo and Aloha ( Thank you, I love you all)  Ang.

nero raises a sensible point, what about those who _choose_ not to pass, yet demand to be treated and refered to as female only.... ?
R

One of these days people are going to figure out you can't "demand" acceptance, you can only request it. Acceptance by its nature is not something you can force from others, otherwise thats not really acceptance, its Subservience through force.

The lines are getting quite blurred.

M&M

One of these days people are going to learn that acceptance is a lot easier than they make it out to be.

yeah, most people dont even know trans exists, nevermind have an opinion.
R

Yes, I'll be honest, I do.  I'll admit that it should not be this way and that I'm getting better, but I have a ways to go.  I do think that seeing an "unpassable" woman brings out our own insecurities about how we look.  And it also gives us a chance to look down on someone else, which we also should not do.  But we feel better as long as we are better looking than someone else.  There is no excuse for any of the above.  It's just that we live in a screwed up world, and if we are honest with ourselves, we participate willingly in its craziness.  One day we will all just be people.  When we are totally comfortable with ourselves, we will be totally comfortable with others.  Now that's a dream to aspire to.

Kristi