Quote from: Marq and Mia on September 06, 2007, 03:51:23 AM
Holy crap! I kind of wish I caught this topic before it got overheated.
I'm kind of doubtful anyone is still reading it but let me take a shot here.

Sure the term Androgyne is confusing in and of itself because it encompasses a number of different specific situations. Transexuals for the most part outwardly seem to have very similair concepts on which they are reacting, or atleast its summarized as such.(Mainly being born the wrong sex for their gender)

Androgynes as a whole follow a similiar concept (again its a blanket term with many specific situations underneath), and at the least should be treated with the same respect that is excepted to be shown to TS folk. The only significant difference is their proposed final destination in the gender journey. Sure people are going to hold back this respect because they don't get Androgynes quite yet. Foreign ideas take time to seep in.

One might ask well if its not a concrete situation, can it be an actual identity. Yes and no. Its not the true identity, the specific cases underneath are the specific identities but if you think its hard to understand a general concept of in the middle, just imagine having to keep up with all the specific identities. So androgynes understanding this on some level try to generalize the concept to make it easier to cope with. That way if you understand any of the specific identities underneath(fluid, intergendered, neutrosis), you could derive partial understanding of some of the others just by association under Androgyne.

And the comment was made that some of us claim to be both male and female at the same time and that seems contradicting of what an androgyne is. You'd probably be referring to the bigender folk with such a comment. Perhaps we are in fact incorrectly identified as androgynes as a result, but it is again only so we don't end up seperating ourselves into infinitely small groups of who we can relate to. If we're hurting the validity of the androgynes with our existance, let me set the record straight. What is commonly called bigender is actually more appropriately called two-spirit and though usually manifests directly related to gender is at its core a spirtual state where two spirits cohabitate within one body. This situation has been around as far back as the native americans and concievably further so. Again maybe too complex for this topic but that leads me to......

You really can't convince people of anything if they don't want to listen. That being said, if you don't understand what someone is experiencing or what they identify as or with, the best thing you could do for them is try to understand who and what they are. Ask questions. Who knows, you might find the understanding they deserve.


Mia and Marq
Thank you all who have taken the time to ask me questions of  the time I've been here.
You don't know how much it means to me that you're reaching out to listen to us
I hope each of you who has walks away with a little extra insight into javascript:moreSmileys();
[more]the world

Oh yeah and thanks for actually reading this far.
Shows you haven't given up on the topic and thats important

This is a fantastic post Marq and Mia... Thank you very much...   You explained more to me about androgyne (what it is and what it isn't) in one post then anyone has ever explained before

Thanks again



edited... cause I'm a dumb-butt and misspelled Marq....

nice post marq and mia, i see where your coming from.

Personally, i dont feel androgyne is a a gender identity, because i cannot comprehend anything but man, and woman, there are two genders to me, and this binary is a social mainstay. it has been for ever. Androgyne seems to have arrisen very recently in my eyes, and while there is significant history of transexual people in multiple cultures and ages. andrognye seems quite recent. If im wrong, please correct me there. I do however belive its a perfectly valid form of gender expression. a person should be how they feel most comfortable. but biologically, there is only male and female, in humans, regardless of other species,  (plus asexual creatures are generally female with the ability to self fertilise, and reproduce by either mitosis or meosis.) the age thing does seem interesting to me, could this be a form of teen identity crisis that grew? i dont know, but my world consists of men and women, regardless of how they choose to express thier bodies, someone wants to be a they? thats cool with me.
one of my best friends came out to me recently as androgyne, (female bodied) and they said it was to them, an expression, and that they 'felt' male, to them, it was a middleground for comfort. but thats only one persons view of themsef.
R

Quote from: regina on September 05, 2007, 08:36:34 PM
It's not so much that I don't believe in the possibility of androgyne as a gender identity, it's more that the people I've encountered who identified as such did so more out of not feeling totally comfortable as male or female rather than some strong identity as androgyne. To me it's harder to connect with someone who feels they're something because they aren't something else than someone who has a clear identity for very specific reasons.

And I still don't pretend to understand many of the aspects of identifying as androgyne other than the fact that it's defiant about the gender binary. Nor do I get how this is manifested physically. For example, if someone identifies as a combination of male and female, but retains the realities of a male body, then to me that person seems more like a femmy male than an androgyne. I also feel as if I've never met androgynes who were much older than their 20s. Maybe that's the limitation of my experience, but it always seems as if they're younger people who exploring their gender and sexuality. The only older androgynes I ever seen were people who transitioned mtf, found they didn't really fit into that category, and are living as androgynes kind of as a default. That doesn't make it less legit, but again, it's defining yourself by what you're not, rather than by what you are. On some level if you think of genderqueer and androgyne as synonymous, my suspicions about genderqueer as a gender is because the ones I've know identify as such out of largely political motives, and in my experience, that makes gender a choice, which is really distant from my experience.

Wow, I really missed quite a conversation last night, I was busy and never logged on.

Gina, it isn't just younger people, I'm 51. Like some of the older androgynes you've met, I transitioned m2f, did a year plus rlt, and then came to an understanding that I was neither male nor female. I lived as neither gender for many years since then until bumping into the term androgyne, and realizing that this word was a reasonable fit to how I feel.

Very interesting thought about defining oneself as what they aren't, as opposed to what they are. I'd say that this perhaps happened for me because I'd previously never heard the term androgyne as a potential identity, only as an expression. And yet it is an old word in gender history. Imagine if you'd never heard the term transsexual, however, from the moment you heard the word, you immediately knew that it described what you felt and what you had to do. That's what happened for me when I finally heard the word androgyne, and started discussing things with other people here who identified as such. There was a name for what I'd been feeling, and describing as simply neither, because I had no other words. I also think it's different than genderqueer, although I feel kinship with those who do it for political reasons, I'm not doing it for those reasons. I'm simply not either gender as we know it.

Identifying as femmy male just doesn't cut it for me, I've never felt male, and I've felt that at such an intense level of discomfort as to believe that I was/am TS and to seek therapy and treatment for such. It was only after a year rlt, that I came to the understanding that although, not male, I wasn't necessarily female either. Obviously, other androgynes feel very differently.

I'm sorry to see that Tay has left, I've always enjoyed T's posts and outlook on life, and hope to see Tay again around here, or somewhere.

Zythyra

I am so glad I didn't find this topic and read through some of the answers to Tay's questions earlier.

I'm enraged enough already.

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 10:02:09 AM

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Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
What don't I understand?  If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far?

Androgyne is actually a category filled with several gender identity descriptions. The one that is between is a mixed form. There's also bigendered and nuetrois.

Quote
  On second thoughts I'd better not get involved in fruitless conversations.  I've got nothing to gain by them.

This conversation is only fruitless while people continue to hold onto antiquated notions about the binary in a brilliant display of hypocritical sickening irony, considering similar notions were used to make our lives living hells no more then 20 years ago.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
To all:
Seriously, is our collective memory so short? Have we forgotten our history? Do we refuse to gain any knowledge of neurology and psychology and biology? Why is it so hard for you people?

Why do we think we have any right to discriminate and mistreat androgynes? We should know better. I am deeply ashamed of the TS community at this point. Deeply, horribly ashamed. I feel on edge just even being associated with this community now.

Have any of you noticed how much credibility the Gay community has lost for their transphobia? How can a group fight for its rights when it engages in such hypocrisy? There are people that treat that as a damning characteristic of these groups and have decided to not aid us or the Gay community because of our hypocrisy.

And do we even deserve to be given acceptance when we are just as bad as our tormentors?

I wonder sometimes. I honestly do.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

P.S. Tink, I am really confused. Are you trying to say give up because its hard? I can understand warning people that it would be a long and hard path and not to expect miracles. But telling androgynes to say, "meh, screw it, I'll go hide" is as completely unhelpful as to tell me or you to "just deal" with having a penis. Can you explain since I prolly misunderstood you?

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 10:23:01 AM

---

The replies to Regina were perfection. I can't add to them and I hope they explained the situation well enough for you, Regina. It just looks like you don't have the experience you need with the androgyne community to know what's up with it.

And that's no big deal. Its easy to get experience.

Quote from: regina on September 06, 2007, 11:01:11 AM

Which is fine. I'm glad you found something that works for you and a realization that MTF transition wasn't totally right for you. I still feel as if people who identify as androgyne have a hard time expressing what this experience is like. Other than saying "I feel like myself" (which I hope we all do) I don't understand what aspects of each gender you have and what aspects of neither gender you have? Is that a fair question to answer? And I'm still not getting what the practical, real life differences there are between people on the FTM or MTF gender who don't 'go all the way' and yourselves? Is it just semantics or self-perception? Because the idea of a body with characteristics of each gender seems in common, as it the commonality of mixed gender expression.

Gina,

Yes, it's a very fair question, and of course you'll hear different answers from each person within the androgyne continuum. Years ago I read a statement by author Jamaica Kincaid that was profound for me, paraphrased, she said it isn't possible to tell the history of ones oppression using the language of the oppressor. For many of us in the androgyne community, we're still exploring and discovering who we are, and at least for me, need to create the language with which to tell our stories.

OK, to try and answer your question about practical real life differences. In another thread this morning, I said that I could, if I were to use terminology of Harry Benjamin standards, consider myself to be non-op, non-hrt M2F TS. But that doesn't fit exactly either. Partially because I don't like identifying who I am as a medical condition, and also because within the TS community, there are some people who proclaim that non-op simply doesn't exist. Another reason is that the word androgyne is ancient, and feels to me as though it encompasses the spiritual aspect of my gender variance.

I guess that differences between "M2F or F2M who don't go all the way" and androgyne are subtle, and also a matter of self perception. There could be two people who appear to be at the same place on the gender continuum, one might identify as M2F, another as bigender, another as androgyne.

How it all feels to me personally; I am not male, there is no question about it. I feel that dysphoria as intensely as any TS friend with whom I've discussed this. In fact, my therapist didn't question that I am TS, and wrote the letters to enable me to proceed to the next step of HRT. After considerable thought and analysis, I realized that just because I was not male, this didn't automatically make me female. I will also say though that I was happier living as a woman than I ever have been as a man. The path in between or outside the binary isn't easy. 

Thanks for asking thoughtful questions, by engaging in dialog we can all, androgyne and non-androgyne, gain better understanding of what it is to be androgyne.

Zythyra

imagine this. its 1956 men are men...tough, providers, there to control women. women are women. they grow up to get married and have children and serve their men. anything outside of this - gay, lesbian, trans, single women, career women, stay at home dads - is considered wrong and is swept under the carpet.

here, in 2007, there's an entire cable station dedicated to GLBT programming. nearly everyone has seen an episode of will and grace and the vast majority either liked it or thought it was boring, few were outraged.

but here, it seems like so many people are obsessed with that 1956 scenario.

let me ask you this. what is a man? what is a woman?
ignore secondary sex characteristics. ignore mass media. ignore what you've been told your entire life of what men and women should be. where does that leave you? it leaves you with a human being.

a human with feelings, and hopes and dreams and creativity like all of us. this human might like cooking, might like driving cars, making things from wood, knitting, playing sports, taking care of children, might like sticking fries up their nose. are any of these things specifically male or female activities? or have you been told your entire life that they are?

androgyne (especially neutrois), as an identity, has nothing to do with the body. at least, thats how i see it. it has everything to do with the spirit. so many TS say "i'm a female mind in a male body, i need to change my body to match", when in fact, male and female are just words associated with groups of desires, activities, and expectations we've built over the years. an androgyne can say "i am neither. i am both. i can switch. my body may say one thing, but i refuse to let my spirit be limited by other people's expectations just because my body looks a certain way". yes, its partially a societal thing. no, androgynes are NOT doing it just for kicks. its not an identity crisis, or not wanting to commit to transition. its not feeling right as a certain sex, and i expect we can all relate to that.

i hope this makes at least a little sense >>

Oh, wow, this thread has really exploded. Sigh.

One thing that hasn't been said here yet is that at least for some androgyne variants, gender and sex are far less tightly coupled than for the average trans- or cisgendered person.

With the cisgendered majority, gender is obviously congruent with sex. For transsexuals, the overall goal includes achieving such congruence, and even the less strict transgendered work towards that goal, just not all the way. This is not necessarily the case for androgynes.

Some androgynes have a body image dysphoria almost as severe as transsexuals, while some have almost none. This is not the deciding factor, though: the important part is the gender. Some of us identify as both male and female, some as neither, and some as something in between. These different identities may be expressed in a variety of ways.

Like Zythyra, I've spent some decades feeling I'm not quite a man. Last spring it got to the point I thought I was MtF, but on closer inspection that didn't feel quite right either. The best label I've seen so far is intergendered (thank you, Marq & Mia for it): the way I feel about my gender is pretty much analogous to the intersexed condition.

I'm still trying to figure out how this identity will affect my gender expression. I'm also aware that most of the outside world will see me as a weird -- or should I say queer -- man, based on the gender marker in my entry in the various government registers. I still know I'm neither a man nor a woman, regardless of what I choose to eventually do (or not do) with my body.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on September 06, 2007, 02:00:50 PM
With the cisgendered majority, gender is obviously congruent with sex. For transsexuals, the overall goal includes achieving such congruence, and even the less strict transgendered work towards that goal, just not all the way. This is not necessarily the case for androgynes.

Some androgynes have a body image dysphoria almost as severe as transsexuals, while some have almost none. This is not the deciding factor, though: the important part is the gender. Some of us identify as both male and female, some as neither, and some as something in between. These different identities may be expressed in a variety of ways.

*nods*
Some medical writings about transsexuals refer to a total "psychosexual inversion" (ie male phenotype and total 'female' mental wiring, or vice versa).  I believe this is very much an ideal and few if any people have a 100% inversion (and few if any 0% too)*.  For androgynes it isn't simply a matter of percentages, which bits of your psyche are affected has a lot of bearing on what path is appropriate.  Some may be more concerned with physical changes, other with social, others may require both.  Indeed some may find that various parts of their personality are in conflict meaning there is no position that makes them totally feel at ease.

(*note that not being wired totally as one thing does not prohibit a person from being perfectly justified in identifying as being within the normal variance for that thing and therefore BEING that thing (I don't want people to think that what I said above devalues identifying as a binary gender))

The problem with trying to define what it is to be an androgyne is that it's trying to cover the entire spectrum of possible gender identities except for two specific 'ideals'.  I see accepting androgyne as a gender identity to be based on a very simple question:

If you believe it's possible for a person's brain to be wired the complete opposite to their body is it not also possible that the wiring may emerge as various combinations and/or with some elements absent?

Quote from: DRAIN on September 06, 2007, 01:52:35 PMat least, thats how i see it. it has everything to do with the spirit. so many TS say "i'm a female mind in a male body, i need to change my body to match", when in fact, male and female are just words associated with groups of desires, activities, and expectations we've built over the years. an androgyne can say "i am neither. i am both. i can switch. my body may say one thing, but i refuse to let my spirit be limited by other people's expectations just because my body looks a certain way".

Male and female are not just words. Nor are they just associated with desires and activities. Nobody here is clinging to 50s ideals. There's more to gender than just what you like to do.

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 03:20:41 PM

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Quote from: Tay on September 05, 2007, 09:22:51 PM

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 09:20:25 PM

Quote from: aineko on September 05, 2007, 09:09:03 PM

Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
Okay, I don't understand something and that something bothers me.  What don't I understand?  If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far?  if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system?  I don't think people will have any problems accepting anyone as they please as long as they maintain an expression which matches that identity.  The thing is that when one claims to be either male and female but at the same time expresses one'self in a way which threatens the binary gendery system, then I'm afraid that people are not going to get the acceptance they are looking for.  IMO, people wouldn't have any problems accepting androgyne as a gender identity as long as androgynes don't claim to be women or men at the same time.  I think extreme examples of this behavior would be, for instance, (like another member put it here) women with beards or pregnant men.  When society's views are threatened in such ways, I tend to be very realistic, and I am sorry to say but nothing positive will be accomplished with such behavior.  Why?  because we would drasticaly need to re-invent history, start from scratch IOW, and most people are not willing to do that . 


tink

P.S.  and BTW I think I have been clear enough so needless to say this is my last post under this thread.  I don't want to be caught in a spiderweb of definitions and words.  Let's have other members answer.  I wasn't the only one who responded under the thread in question, was I?  Tay, you wanted an explanation? you got it.

search/replace androgyne with TS, and you just rolled back the clock about 50 years.
Or with gay/lesbian.
Maybe even hippy.

Is it fun to be such a hypocrite?

If the reason of this thread is to express your anger to those of us who don't see androgyne as a gender identity by name calling, then I would advise anyone to refrain from posting under this thread.

tink

She's right, Tink.  Why can't you see that?  50 years ago, transitioning to female would have been something looked down on deeply.  Just like you all look down on me now.  100 years ago?  Worse.  400 years ago?  You would have been BURNED AT THE STAKE.

She's raising a valid point, so please refrain from bapping people on the noses just for challenging you.  I don't recall any namecalling.  Hypocrite IS an accurate descriptor here.

PS: Warning people away from my thread is REAL mature.

Quote from: Sophia on September 06, 2007, 10:24:47 AM
I am so glad I didn't find this topic and read through some of the answers to Tay's questions earlier.

I'm enraged enough already.

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 10:02:09 AM

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Quote from: Tink on September 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
What don't I understand?  If androgyne is a gender identity, it would fit somewhere between male and female, am I making any sense so far?

Androgyne is actually a category filled with several gender identity descriptions. The one that is between is a mixed form. There's also bigendered and nuetrois.

Quote
  if this is indeed so, why do most, if not all, androgynes (I won't mention any names but you know who you are) want to be accepted as men or women but at the same time adopt a gender expression which is somehow confusing to the eyes of a person who is fixated on the binary gender system?

No, that's just mixed and sometimes bigendered. The nuetrois are neither men nor women, 100%.

The rest of your post is based on the wrong information above so hopefully my corrections can help you rethink your views.

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 10:09:23 AM

---

Quote from: Blanche on September 06, 2007, 03:19:31 AM

Quote from: Rebis on September 06, 2007, 02:51:59 AM
Hi,

   I guess Tay has left the site.  I can try to take Tay's place in keeping the discussion going although I certainly cannot live up to the passion of Tay.

Good grief! I hope you're more well-manered to interact with disagreement.

Because you're such a fine example of grace under fire and self control in debate.

Quote
  On second thoughts I'd better not get involved in fruitless conversations.  I've got nothing to gain by them.

This conversation is only fruitless while people continue to hold onto antiquated notions about the binary in a brilliant display of hypocritical sickening irony, considering similar notions were used to make our lives living hells no more then 20 years ago.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
To all:
Seriously, is our collective memory so short? Have we forgotten our history? Do we refuse to gain any knowledge of neurology and psychology and biology? Why is it so hard for you people?

Why do we think we have any right to discriminate and mistreat androgynes? We should know better. I am deeply ashamed of the TS community at this point. Deeply, horribly ashamed. I feel on edge just even being associated with this community now.

Have any of you noticed how much credibility the Gay community has lost for their transphobia? How can a group fight for its rights when it engages in such hypocrisy? There are people that treat that as a damning characteristic of these groups and have decided to not aid us or the Gay community because of our hypocrisy.

And do we even deserve to be given acceptance when we are just as bad as our tormentors?

I wonder sometimes. I honestly do.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

P.S. Tink, I am really confused. Are you trying to say give up because its hard? I can understand warning people that it would be a long and hard path and not to expect miracles. But telling androgynes to say, "meh, screw it, I'll go hide" is as completely unhelpful as to tell me or you to "just deal" with having a penis. Can you explain since I prolly misunderstood you?

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 10:23:01 AM

---

The replies to Regina were perfection. I can't add to them and I hope they explained the situation well enough for you, Regina. It just looks like you don't have the experience you need with the androgyne community to know what's up with it.

And that's no big deal. Its easy to get experience.

There've been many implications in this thread that transsexuals should understand and accept everything on the basis of their own discrimination. How dare they have opinions? As a marginalized group, they have no right to be opinionated! This is analogous to saying blacks should never ever have an opinion on any other group or it's actions. After all, 50 years ago, they would've been lynched!
This is extreme thinking. Transsexuals are also individuals with their own thoughts, opinions, etc. Even if their opinion is misguided, they have every right to express it.

Quote from: Seshatneferw on September 06, 2007, 02:00:50 PM

Some androgynes have a body image dysphoria almost as severe as transsexuals, while some have almost none. This is not the deciding factor, though: the important part is the gender. Some of us identify as both male and female, some as neither, and some as something in between. These different identities may be expressed in a variety of ways.

Like Zythyra, I've spent some decades feeling I'm not quite a man. Last spring it got to the point I thought I was MtF, but on closer inspection that didn't feel quite right either. The best label I've seen so far is intergendered (thank you, Marq & Mia for it): the way I feel about my gender is pretty much analogous to the intersexed condition.

I'm still trying to figure out how this identity will affect my gender expression. I'm also aware that most of the outside world will see me as a weird -- or should I say queer -- man, based on the gender marker in my entry in the various government registers. I still know I'm neither a man nor a woman, regardless of what I choose to eventually do (or not do) with my body.

Nfr,

Yes, how we feel gender seems to be an important aspect for many of us. A feeling of gender variance is very much present in my life, regardless of how/if/when it's expressed externally. For me, one of the most painful aspects of being androgyne is that I don't feel very safe to express my androgyny with clothing choices as I might in a non-discriminatory world, and so I am invisible. I don't really care if I'm just perceived as a "weird guy in a dress", however I don't want to end up a "dead weird guy in a dress".

Zythyra

Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:31:18 PM
There've been many implications in this thread that transsexuals should understand and accept everything on the basis of their own discrimination. How dare they have opinions? As a marginalized group, they have no right to be opinionated! This is analogous to saying blacks should never ever have an opinion on any other group or it's actions. After all, 50 years ago, they would've been lynched!
This is extreme thinking. Transsexuals are also individuals with their own thoughts, opinions, etc. Even if their opinion is misguided, they have every right to express it.

Right to have their own opinions: yes
Right to have their own opinions and not have to justify them: yes
Right to have their own opinion which is based on little more than 'I NEED an inflexible idea of the binary in my head to justify my actions': yes

Right to expect to be able to state those opinions in a forum such as this without other people questioning their reasoning: no

When you have one group being obviously close minded, responding that other peoples close mindedness caused people like them in the past a lot of difficulty is perfectly valid.  I've yet to see anybody put forward an idea of why androgyne DOESN'T exist as a valid gender identity.

Quote
Male and female are not just words.

i should have said "man and woman" sorry ^^;

QuoteNobody here is clinging to 50s ideals.

i wouldn't say nobody, but *shrug*

QuoteThere's more to gender than just what you like to do.

like what?

Quote from: Andra on September 06, 2007, 02:40:08 PM

Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:31:18 PM
There've been many implications in this thread that transsexuals should understand and accept everything on the basis of their own discrimination. How dare they have opinions? As a marginalized group, they have no right to be opinionated! This is analogous to saying blacks should never ever have an opinion on any other group or it's actions. After all, 50 years ago, they would've been lynched!
This is extreme thinking. Transsexuals are also individuals with their own thoughts, opinions, etc. Even if their opinion is misguided, they have every right to express it.

Right to have their own opinions: yes
Right to have their own opinions and not have to justify them: yes
Right to have their own opinion which is based on little more than 'I NEED an inflexible idea of the binary in my head to justify my actions': yes

Right to expect to be able to state those opinions in a forum such as this without other people questioning their reasoning: no

When you have one group being obviously close minded, responding that other peoples close mindedness caused people like them in the past a lot of difficulty is perfectly valid.  I've yet to see anybody put forward an idea of why androgyne DOESN'T exist as a valid gender identity.

There's a difference between questioning somebody's reasoning and saying 'How can you possibly think the way you do! Way back when, you'dve been burned at the stake!'

I don't think the 'You shouldn't feel this way because you're discriminated against too' line is a valid argument.
No minority group has an obligation to accept any other group.

Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:45:09 PM
There's a difference between questioning somebody's reasoning and saying 'How can you possibly think the way you do! Way back when, you'dve been burned at the stake!'

I don't think the 'You shouldn't feel this way because you're discriminated against too' line is a valid argument.
No minority group has an obligation to accept any other group.

I think you missed the point of my reply.  No minority group has an obligation to ACCEPT another group, or indeed an obligation to think about the issue.  I'd think the members of such a group would be a little more sensitive though, and either at least TRY to get their heads around it or just not engage in the debate at all.  If I just have unrealistically high expectations about that sort of thing then I apologise...

Hi,

   I agree with Zythyra that the androgyne person has existed for as longer as the binary person.  There is a certain point in western culture where you see the rituals and the customs of the ancients become outlawed and suppressed.  The suppression of our identities is what gives us no language to express ourselves in concrete terms.  We are a peopl who have had most of our historical culture eradicated by the powerful institutions that either viewed us as a threat, unnatural (which in a way, some people here do), or as an easy target.

  We have no language now - especially in English.  If we are not a valid group of people, then why do the native languages of North America have a language for us?  In the U.S. most of this language has been suppressed and some of it lost because of the government's position on stripping Native Americans of their culture.
  The point is that the concept and the language has existed in the past, but has been eradicated at the convenience of 'civilized' culture and "tradition".

   Almost all we have right now is a small little struggle where we are trying to retake our place amongst the rest of you.  First, we need to explain ourselves to ourselves.  All we have are vague statements like "I am I".  I mean, what the hell does that mean? It's all we got right now, but not forever.
   Just because we have no concrete method for describing who we are does not mean that we are not who and what we claim to be.

   I am considering beginning a dialog with my gender counselor to see if there are any 'modern' terms that might help to describe us.  I think that stinks, however because I don't want people to take me seriously just because the medical community creates some terminology like 'Gender Atrophy Syndrome' or some other pickling phrase.



Rebis

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 02:55:26 PM

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Quote from: Andra on September 06, 2007, 02:40:08 PM

Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:31:18 PM
There've been many implications in this thread that transsexuals should understand and accept everything on the basis of their own discrimination. How dare they have opinions? As a marginalized group, they have no right to be opinionated! This is analogous to saying blacks should never ever have an opinion on any other group or it's actions. After all, 50 years ago, they would've been lynched!
This is extreme thinking. Transsexuals are also individuals with their own thoughts, opinions, etc. Even if their opinion is misguided, they have every right to express it.

Right to have their own opinions: yes
Right to have their own opinions and not have to justify them: yes
Right to have their own opinion which is based on little more than 'I NEED an inflexible idea of the binary in my head to justify my actions': yes

Right to expect to be able to state those opinions in a forum such as this without other people questioning their reasoning: no

When you have one group being obviously close minded, responding that other peoples close mindedness caused people like them in the past a lot of difficulty is perfectly valid.  I've yet to see anybody put forward an idea of why androgyne DOESN'T exist as a valid gender identity.

Adding to what Andra said, I believe that the disagreement is important in itself in this situation.  By having to put forth our case, we are forced to focus and to present our ideas and feelings much better than if we never had to try.

QuoteI agree with Zythyra that the androgyne person has existed for as longer as the binary person.  There is a certain point in western culture where you see the rituals and the customs of the ancients become outlawed and suppressed.  The suppression of our identities is what gives us no language to express ourselves in concrete terms.  We are a peopl who have had most of our historical culture eradicated by the powerful institutions that either viewed us as a threat, unnatural (which in a way, some people here do), or as an easy target.

  We have no language now - especially in English.  If we are not a valid group of people, then why do the native languages of North America have a language for us?  In the U.S. most of this language has been suppressed and some of it lost because of the government's position on stripping Native Americans of their culture.
  The point is that the concept and the language has existed in the past, but has been eradicated at the convenience of 'civilized' culture and "tradition".

Rebis,

I recently finished reading Barbara Ehrenreich's, Dancing in the Streets; a History of Collective Joy. A fascinating book which talks of the disappearance of dance, ceremony and ritual in modern society. There are a number of mentions of cross dressing as part of ritual in ancient societies as well.

We are really in our infancy of reclaiming our place in society, and finding our lost gender variant languages. Goo goo ga... oog ogg og 

QuoteI am considering beginning a dialog with my gender counselor to see if there are any 'modern' terms that might help to describe us.  I think that stinks, however because I don't want people to take me seriously just because the medical community creates some terminology like 'Gender Atrophy Syndrome' or some other pickling phrase.

LOL, I've got GAS (Gender Atrophy Syndrome)... I suggest Gender Enhancement Syndrome instead. GES what gender I am now?? 

Zythyra

Quote from: Andra on September 06, 2007, 02:48:55 PM

Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 02:45:09 PM
There's a difference between questioning somebody's reasoning and saying 'How can you possibly think the way you do! Way back when, you'dve been burned at the stake!'

I don't think the 'You shouldn't feel this way because you're discriminated against too' line is a valid argument.
No minority group has an obligation to accept any other group.

I think you missed the point of my reply.  No minority group has an obligation to ACCEPT another group, or indeed an obligation to think about the issue.  I'd think the members of such a group would be a little more sensitive though, and either at least TRY to get their heads around it or just not engage in the debate at all.  If I just have unrealistically high expectations about that sort of thing then I apologise...

Well, we would hope that other marginalized groups would have acceptance, but that still doesn't explain why they don't believe androgyne is a valid identity. I don't understand why people can believe that one's gender can be opposite one's sex, but NOT believe that other gender variations are possible.
The only thing I can think is that they only see binary, and are invested in the binary.
I believe in the binary. I believe in male and female, but I also believe that nothing in nature is absolute and that not everybody fits the binary.
I see it as no different than sex. Intersexed people do not fit either sex. Why must gender?

This is quite a fascinating discussion, many of the issues surrounding androgynes have been expressed, such as:
We are not a homogenous group
For most, there is no recognisably 'androgyne expression'
Physically humans are for the most part Male or Female, it is easy to wonder how you could be anything else.
Current 'American/English' society and language does not support the existence of androgynes (thought it can easily be shown this exists in other cultures)

As a result we are practically 'invisible'. It can be difficult accepting something you can't see or feel or understand. I guess this does require a certain amount of faith - but so does accepting that someone can have a gender opposite to their physical sex. We can't see that either.

I find it disappointing that there are a number here that can not accept the possibility of other gender variations. It invalidates what I feel inside, it is like being told I am mistaken, that what I feel can't be real.

All you need to accept is that what someone else feels is just as valid as what you feel. This is what we are really talking about because a gender identity is the gender people identify with internally.

I am very proud of you, my friends.   

It makes me happy to see this thread become a beautiful conversation.

Quote from: Nero on September 06, 2007, 04:08:42 PM

Well, we would hope that other marginalized groups would have acceptance, but that still doesn't explain why they don't believe androgyne is a valid identity. I don't understand why people can believe that one's gender can be opposite one's sex, but NOT believe that other gender variations are possible.
The only thing I can think is that they only see binary, and are invested in the binary.
I believe in the binary. I believe in male and female, but I also believe that nothing in nature is absolute and that not everybody fits the binary.
I see it as no different than sex. Intersexed people do not fit either sex. Why must gender?

Nero -  just asking for clerification so I can understand what you mean -- 

So you're saying that you believe that there is a "binary", a male and a female 'option'



But that there are also "non binary" 'options'


(yeah ok I like visual aids )

and that they are all valid gender identities?

I think that's what you meant,  but I think (please someone correct me if I am wrong) that the word "binary" means two and only two.  So it means male and female. (period)  So your post reads a little weird