Intersexualite dot org

In his book, Bailey wrote that Cheryl Chase told him that transsexuals frequently join intersex groups believing they are intersexual.  He states that they are not. They do this (he assumes) because they want to believe that there is a real biological woman inside them as well as a psychological one (p. 175).  This is discussed in the context of the autogynephiles self-deception, something that he says has misled gender identity clinics for many years - and why they had not been noticed nor accounted for.

Quote from: LostInTime on September 05, 2007, 08:29:26 AM
...Bailey wrote that Cheryl Chase told him that...

Sounds like hearsay to me.  I guess he didn't have time to find out for himself.

Also, even if it was true, its only relevant if a significant % of TS join IS groups, since the number of TS is in dispute, I'm not sure what such information would mean.

Also, I think some IS resent TS trying to asurp their own identity and thus there is some agenda here.

Thirdly, as said, hearsay is not evidence of anything, Bailey is a hack of incredible proportions!!

Its time a non-TS psychologist pounds his poor arguments into the ground since he think all TS are liars and cannot be objective about his "theory" (I loath calling such unscientific claptrap a theory).

Quote from: regina on September 05, 2007, 09:02:23 PMCheryl Chase has always had a very hostile relationship with transwomen, specifically. It's important to know that many intersexed people aren't big fans of Cheryl Chase, ISNA, Alice Dreger and certainly not Bailey. In point of fact, I doubt Chase has any specific knowledge about the intersexed conditions of anyone who joins such groups, this is just an assumption she's making about them to denigrate the reality of their issues as being genetically based.

Dear Regina,

My name is Curtis and I am the intersex activist who wrote the commentary.  I know for a fact that ISNA, Chase and Dreger are all transphobic and they have caused great damage to the intersex community as a result of this.  I found it itneresting that Bailey would use a conversation with Cheryl Chase to generalize that all transgender people who allege being intersex are liars.  I also find it interesting that Dreger is the "intersex" activist (I call her a DSD activist) who is defending this liar.  I use that word after great reflection. 

I have spoken several hours a day with Anjelica and she is intersexed.  Bailey's logic defies all description.  It is beyond dumb.  It is very disturbing we live in a society where an academic can all people liars, in this cause Anjelica, but when the facts establish that she is not lying then my writing that he is a liar has been criticized by academics.  Why would they not criticize him?  He is the one calling her a liar.  She clearly is not lying.  He is.  Therefore, he is a liar.

I find that many people who transition have an intersexed history.  It is quite common. The problem is that GENDER is not part of Dreger's, Chase's or Bailey's world.  Take a look at ISNA's website.  On the homepage, they state something that I after 8 years of working with intersex people all over the world have never been able to validate.  They state that intersex is not primarily about gender.  That statement is so fallacious and damaging to the intersex community.  But it is the propaganda that so many have bought. 

The whole intersex movement in the United States has been drenched in transphobia and I have noticed that in Europe, the intersex movement in the Netherlands is very tranpshobic.  In France where we have a large organisation, it is not and that is true of Argentina and other countries where we are active.

I predicted that transphobia would destroy the US intersex movement quite a while back.  I am glad that more and more Americans are joining OII. But there are still a majority of people who have refused to think about what is going on. We really need the trans community to help us fight this DSD redefinition of intersex as a birth defect.  This is the most damaging thing that has happened to the intersex movment since Dr. Money and it is actually worse.

Kind regards,
Curtis

Thank you for the replies and for keeping this on subject.

Curtis, welcome to Susan's I am glad that you took the time to post here.

Quote from: LostInTime on September 05, 2007, 09:42:49 PMCurtis, welcome to Susan's I am glad that you took the time to post here.

Thanks LostInTime.  I think that the transgender community can now understand better the problems that we have had with Dreger in the intersex community.  I would say that she is the Bailey of the intersex community.  She has spoken for us, never listened to practically any of us and has come up with pathological models that not only offend us but will have the long term effect of eliminating most of us from the gene pool using the very method that Bailey has written a legal justification for - eugenics. 

What Bailey and Dreger are doing to Anjelica is offensive and very abusive.  I am simply stunned and revolted that those in the scientific community who have the power to denounce this do not do so.  Since Dreger has written this recent paper in order to reframe this argument about free speech and how academics like Bailey have been a victim, I am going to enjoy my free speech rights and work to expose this dangerous misappropriation of intersex/trans lives and identities.  It is ludicrous that Dreger would be defending freedom of speech.  She has been an expert of silencing us in the intersex community. 

I have been consistently silenced by this DSD activist because I don't fit her definitions.  I rejected my initial birth assignment and present as male and also I identify as intersex (not male or female).  She has issues with both of these experiences.  I have issues with her speaking for me and erasing the real-life experiences of my community.

Kind regards,
Curtis

im intersex, and im NOT in any IS groups, tbh a lot of transwomen ive found ARE intersex, and the prevelance of the condition is higher in transgender people than cisgender (from my experience)
yes, there are trans women who decide that less than average body hair or hight means thier IS, and bleat on about being intersex. but some really are. R

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on September 06, 2007, 09:03:26 AM
someone educate me here -- i dont know what the definition of 'intersex' is -- does it mean that one is genetically both male and female?  is there a dna test for this condition?

Requirements vary a bit depending on who you ask, but generally anything like ambiguous genitalia (or even if just developmentally flawed) or unusual chromosomes like xxy (Kleinfelter's: male-appearing with feminine traits) or even normal-appearing women who are xy (they have an insensitivity to androgens).

You can test the chromosomes. The physical differences you can usually SEE. But there are intersexed people with odd chromosomes and no obvious outward signs, and people with genital "defects" but with normal chromosomes.

~Kate~

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on September 06, 2007, 09:03:26 AM
someone educate me here -- i dont know what the definition of 'intersex' is -- does it mean that one is genetically both male and female?  is there a dna test for this condition?

There is no precise definition for intersex.  The way it has been used, this would include people who had chromosomes which were not XY or XX (such as XXY, XO or XX/XY, etc) or people who had chromosomes which did not correspond with the "expected" external sexual morphology, such as someone who is XY with AIS but has a female sexual phenotype or there are people like me who have XX chromosomes but were born with a more external male phenotype while having internal female anatomy.

There are others that would be in this category just because of atypical genitalia for which there is no known cause, genetic or otherwise.  There are others that are intersex just because of the gonads which are mixed, absent or otherwise known what is called dysgenic.

We in OII refuse essentialist definitions of sex because we feel there will never be a way to define what a woman or a man is by any reductionist, genetic explanation.  We simply define intersex as anyone who is born with a body who does not meet the norms for what society has determined are standard for male or female. 

I would like to open a thread that would show the very similar political motivations of sexual apartheid and racial apartheid but since I am new here, I request that someone point me to the place where that would be most appropriate.

If you have any further questions about what is intersex, I will be happy to try to answer.  OII has geneticists, academics and other experts that will help me if I don't know the answer.

Kind regards,
Curtis

Posted on: September 06, 2007, 09:57:20 AM

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Quote from: Rachael on September 06, 2007, 07:39:36 AM
im intersex, and im NOT in any IS groups, tbh a lot of transwomen ive found ARE intersex, and the prevelance of the condition is higher in transgender people than cisgender (from my experience)
yes, there are trans women who decide that less than average body hair or hight means thier IS, and bleat on about being intersex. but some really are. R

Hi Rachael,

I forgot to mention that people can also be classified as intersex based on atypical hormones.  They could have hormone levels which are atypical for the genetic sex or have extremely high androgens for an XX or extremely low androgens for and XY.  So, there could be some validity for feeling you might be intersex based solely on atypical hormones and body hair. 

I don't see any particular benefit in precise definitions of who is or who is not intersex any more than than having precise definitions of who is or is not a woman.  I see such separatisms as counterproductive to real human rights activism.

In the intersex community, real activism for human rights was diverted and all the energy was focused on policing the borders and defining who is and who is not intersex.  As a result we now have intersex redefined as a genetic birth defect and all known variations will eventually be described with a genetic definition (that has NOT been the case until now.  This is a radical change).  This new model is the DSD model based on the disorders of sex development diagnostic criteria.

Kind regards,
Curtis

sadly, im physically intersexed, with corrective surgery at birth, and a most horrid childhood raised a way my parents saw fit. personally, i dont CARE who wants to say thier intersex. its certainly not something i LIKE or feel validated by. its ruined a good portion of my life...
R

Quote from: Rachael on September 06, 2007, 10:50:10 AM
sadly, im physically intersexed, with corrective surgery at birth, and a most horrid childhood raised a way my parents saw fit. personally, i dont CARE who wants to say thier intersex. its ruined a good portion of my life... R

Same here.

Curtis, the political area of the forums would be appropriate for what you described. Just need to make sure that you follow the rules of the site and you will be fine.

It is funny, many of the people I have met ask me if I am IS and when I state that I have no idea they think I should be "tested". I try to explain that it may not be as simple as that but once you start mentioning different genes, fetal development, etc.. their eyes just kind of glaze over. LOL. I did have an ultrasound that came back inconclusive but since I have had my appendix removed and one or two other medical issues that never turned up anything (that I know of) I will safely think I am not IS. Even if I were, to me it would make no difference whatsoever. I was raised male and have transitioned to female.

As for research... anyone can get just about anything printed. I have read articles where the titles are song lyrics. 

Quote from: LostInTime on September 06, 2007, 12:13:50 PM
Curtis, the political area of the forums would be appropriate for what you described. Just need to make sure that you follow the rules of the site and you will be fine.

It is funny, many of the people I have met ask me if I am IS and when I state that I have no idea they think I should be "tested". I try to explain that it may not be as simple as that but once you start mentioning different genes, fetal development, etc.. their eyes just kind of glaze over. LOL. I did have an ultrasound that came back inconclusive but since I have had my appendix removed and one or two other medical issues that never turned up anything (that I know of) I will safely think I am not IS. Even if I were, to me it would make no difference whatsoever. I was raised male and have transitioned to female.

As for research... anyone can get just about anything printed. I have read articles where the titles are song lyrics. 

You are absolutely correct.  People who think testing will answer that do not understand intersex.  It is well known that there are no explanations for 50% of all cases of intersex in people that are XY.  We don't have an explanation and there would therefore be no test to detect such an intersex variation.  I simply keep an open mind and let people define who they are.  If a person for some reason feels they are intersexed, I feel that they may very well have a very valid reason for that feeling.  I am not a geneticist.  I am not a biologist and neither are any of the people I know who try to police the boundaries of intersex.  It is political, not scientific.

Kind regards,
Curtis