I wonder why Prof Remacle requires a 2 day hospital stay. Does anyone know?

It's only 1 day in fact. His assistant said two days but Prof Remacle informed me that I can leave the hospital the day after surgery and travel back home 2 days later.

Quote from: anjaq on June 24, 2014, 06:03:23 AM
It would be of value for this forum if you would do something like some of the others here did - some recordings from before and after ("unmodified" voice, "feminized" voice, reading Rainbow passage and/or just talking) - so that people can maybe know that there are alternatives?

I'll try to record something before and after surgery.

QuoteWhat is the pricing of him - is it in the same range as Dr Kim?

See at the beginning of this thread.

QuoteDoes Dr Thomas not do this procedure himself as well? Which patients does Dr Thomas send to have this procedure instead of his own - I was thinking he has his own procedure which is rather unique and that he would recommend this one istead of the glottoplasty?

Dr Thomas doesn't perform Wendler/web glottoplastys himself. I considered his FemLar procedure and he told me that it is quite invasive and that I should also look into Dr Remacle's and Dr Kim's technique before making a decision. He seems to be a very nice person - which other surgeon refers people to his "competitors"?

Oh sorry about the question on the pricing. So it is similar in price.

Does anyone know who "Wendler" is, who seems to be the namegiver of the procedure, so I assume he or she is the one who did this first?

Quote
Dr Thomas doesn't perform Wendler/web glottoplastys himself. I considered his FemLar procedure and he told me that it is quite invasive and that I should also look into Dr Remacle's and Dr Kim's technique before making a decision. He seems to be a very nice person - which other surgeon refers people to his "competitors"?

Indeed - he seems to have the best in mind. but it also is telling that he warns about his own procedure. Indeed it is very invasive and this is why I am not really considering it as a first choice, although I heard that the results can be very good especially since he is the only one yet who can also change resonance

Hi Anja,

Quote from: anjaq on June 25, 2014, 12:09:10 PM
Does anyone know who "Wendler" is, who seems to be the namegiver of the procedure, so I assume he or she is the one who did this first?

http://kinderstimme.uniklinikum-leipzig.de/archiv/2003/Prof_Dr_J%FCrgen_Wendler.htm

He described the procedure in Wendler, J.: Proceedings of the Union of the European Phoniatricians, Salsomaggiore, Italy, 1989, as a modification of Donald, PJ: Voice change surgery in the transsexual. Head Neck Surg. 1982;4:433-437., but IIRC, these were external approaches to the voice box, the endoscopic one being introduced by Gross 1999.

Quote from: anjaq on June 25, 2014, 12:09:10 PM
although I heard that the results can be very good especially since he is the only one yet who can also change resonance

Changing resonance is not required. Post-surgically, the propensity to use female resonance is greatly increased, because the male voice is only obtainable at the very bottom of the range.

Hi, Amy

Quote from: AmyBerlin on June 26, 2014, 03:24:57 AM
He described the procedure in Wendler, J.: Proceedings of the Union of the European Phoniatricians, Salsomaggiore, Italy, 1989, as a modification of Donald, PJ: Voice change surgery in the transsexual. Head Neck Surg. 1982;4:433-437., but IIRC, these were external approaches to the voice box, the endoscopic one being introduced by Gross 1999.

Oh wow, so this idea is around for a very very long time

QuoteChanging resonance is not required. Post-surgically, the propensity to use female resonance is greatly increased, because the male voice is only obtainable at the very bottom of the range.

Interesting. But for some odd reason, for some people simply rasing pitch does not seem to change the gender ambiguity of their voice enough and they report sounding like a high pitched male. Resonance seems to be a factor but maybe it depends on the person. I guess for you it is less of an issue, since your larynx probably is small enough already (you said that your vocal chords were of female size). Prosody is of course a major factor in that too, but I would not dismiss resonance ... maybe it gets easier to get it right with a VFS but I guess working on it can improve the voice still...

QuoteChanging resonance is not required. Post-surgically, the propensity to use female resonance is greatly increased, because the male voice is only obtainable at the very bottom of the range.

That's good to hear, but you still have to know HOW to use female resonance. All voice surgeons I have consulted (including Dr Kim) stress the importance of voice training to obtain the proper resonance. There seem to be some people who think they can have this kind of surgery with an untrained male voice as a starting point and sound completely female afterwards. That simply won't happen!

QuoteBut for some odd reason, for some people simply rasing pitch does not seem to change the gender ambiguity of their voice enough and they report sounding like a high pitched male. Resonance seems to be a factor but maybe it depends on the person.

It doesn't depend on the person - resonance is crucial for everybody! The resonance chambers of trans women (at least those who underwent male puberty) are significantly larger than those of cis women. All people with good VFS results I have heard so far have successfully learned to actively control their resonance - most of them BEFORE surgery. It's equally important for a feminine voice as pitch and can only be achieved with conscious (or sub-conscious) effort. I've also heard some of those people who sound like high-pitched males after surgery. These women just weren't able or didn't try to use the proper resonance. It's all a matter of training and critical self perception.

Hello evenstar,

Quote from: evenstar on June 26, 2014, 10:48:52 AM
That's good to hear, but you still have to know HOW to use female resonance.

Yes. I can only imagine what would happen if you underwent this surgery not knowing how to use female resonance. Then you'd probably get stuck in a very small pitch range, as the male voice is only possible to reach up to a certain limit.

But really, using female resonance doesn't require any effort. All the effort you have to put in before VFS goes into pitch.

Regards,

Amy

Hi

Quote from: evenstar on June 26, 2014, 10:48:52 AM
It doesn't depend on the person - resonance is crucial for everybody! The resonance chambers of trans women (at least those who underwent male puberty) are significantly larger than those of cis women.

Well not in all cases I guess. But generally, yes. And I guess that Dr Thomas idea is to change that. So generally I really like his idea - to make the whole larynx smaller snd sitting a bit higher, thus doing more of a reconstruction of a female larynx. But the invasiveness of it is immense. If it works, the resonance chanber is smaller and no resonance control should be needed at all. This would indeed be something for people who cannot do either pitch nor resonance control.

Hi Amy

Quote from: AmyBerlin on June 26, 2014, 11:03:53 AM
But really, using female resonance doesn't require any effort. All the effort you have to put in before VFS goes into pitch.

Well for you it does not, but you have a long training and also are a singer. For many others, resonance is not that easily controlled it seems. Hence the many voices one can hear that have a male resonance or at least hints and parts of it (I include myself in the latter category). So voice training is not something to skip with VFS - at least not with Dr Kim and Remacle.

As promised, I'm going to document my voice surgery with some audio recordings. Here are some recordings of my pre-op voice. I've trained extensively with and without a speech therapist, but I still perceive it as somewhat male/androgynous sounding. All other people tell me that it sounds female though and I usually pass in person and on the phone. The problem is: I don't believe them because I hear something else!

Pre-OP, trained "female" voice as I use it everyday:

English, reading rainbow passage: http://vocaroo.com/i/s1wU59uqwwF4
German, reading "Nordwind und Sonne": http://vocaroo.com/i/s0oConNXSIFs

Pre-OP, original male voice (sounds a little higher pitched and weaker than it used to be):

English, reading rainbow passage: http://vocaroo.com/i/s18GGGXZ9K65
German, reading "Nordwind und Sonne": http://vocaroo.com/i/s0ds51hy5dBD

Yeah - I guess your trained voice is really quite good. If it sounds like that without effort, it would be quite good already - what training did you use to get i?

Voice training was basically the first thing I started at the beginning of my transition (more than 4 years ago by now). I worked with several of the training programs available, but what helped me most was Andrea James' "Finding Your Female Voice". I practised a lot when driving to work every morning. Later I also trained with two different speech therapists here in Vienna, but honestly speaking I don't think that it improved my voice much more. I also used to sing a lot, though I do not have a trained singing voice. But I guess that helped, too. Unfortunately all the training (and also psychotherapy) didn't help with my biggest problem - self perception. I still perceive my own voice as male no matter what I do.

Ok. I guess I will do this stupid FYFV exercises then - I found them to be silly but if it really works that well... I need to bridge another year for financial and work related reasons until I can get VFS if I still want it by then ( I wish I could do it in spring when the finances would be ok, but I cannot stay off the job for a month there and then have another month of basically not speaking).

Quote from: anjaq on June 29, 2014, 06:01:24 AM
Ok. I guess I will do this stupid FYFV exercises then - I found them to be silly but if it really works that well...

Yes indeed, these exercises sound silly - but that's the reason why they work. You basically train the correct pitch AND resonance with one single exercise - over and over again. It's a clever drill that imprints the correct sound and muscle activation pattern on your mind. After some time you can easily expand the training syllables to whole words and sentences.

Well the "squeezing" part of the exercises is not good. My voice therapists said I should keep them to a minimum if I try it because this is what I was doing too much over the past years already. I am not sure how that squeezing and breathy vowels will reall be feminine - I mean, I could do them a lot of times and it would still be similar would it not be? How does the feedback work to improve it, I am not sure about this. Maybe I am just not good enough in english when it comes to really talking about language. I get it that if you have the right sound that you repeat it a lot and speak a lot in that sound, but doing a squeezed aaaa going to an breathy aaa - I am not sure how I would go from that to a female voice? Maybe I am too daft to understand the exercises
I can imagine if this works well, it may be a good preparation for VFS...

The squeezing is the most important part in my opinion. The correct female voice is exactly in the middle between the "squeezed" and "breathy" voice so you have to train both before you can find it. The squeezed voice is also a good training for the vocal muscles but of course you have to be careful in the beginning because it is very stressful.

The squeezing is the "twang" I was talking a lot about in my previous postings. It's an essential component in the trained female voice. You need surprisingly little of it post-VFS though.

Amy

Well yes of course, a bit can be used, but that strong use of it is maybe not good for me. To use too much "twang" was probably what caused my hourglass glottis and all the issues with it, so therapists orders for now are to use more of the breathy part.
A question: Where is the male voice in that glide from squeezed to breathy sound? And if it is not there - how so?

Hi Anja,

Quote from: anjaq on June 30, 2014, 03:18:16 PM
To use too much "twang" was probably what caused my hourglass glottis and all the issues with it, so therapists orders for now are to use more of the breathy part.

Well, actually, twang is the opposite of breathiness. Twang is 100% sound, no escaping air, with complete forward focus. That's why twang is louder and more piercing than any other sound we can make.

Quote from: anjaq on June 30, 2014, 03:18:16 PM
A question: Where is the male voice in that glide from squeezed to breathy sound? And if it is not there - how so?

Cathrine Sadolin divides the sounds available to the human voice into four categories: Neutral (aka female resonance), Curbing (kind of a whining, moaning sound), Overdrive (a shout, male resonance) and Edge (a scream).

Both breathiness and twang are not possible in the male voice (Overdrive). By referencing everything to breathiness, Andrea James is keeping you in Neutral (female resonance). The squeezed sound is also possible in Curbing, but breathiness isn't. On the other hand, it adds volume and "body" to Neutral. That's why this exercise is so valuable: it keeps your voice in Neutral, but amplifies the volume. BTW, Curbing and Edge also can sound feminine, but are no sensible options for speaking, for obvious reasons.

Regards,

Amy

Quote from: anjaq on June 30, 2014, 03:18:16 PM
A question: Where is the male voice in that glide from squeezed to breathy sound? And if it is not there - how so?

This is how I see it:



The female voice is located higher in the mixed register(as the name says, a mixture between the head and chest registers) whereas the normal male voice is located below in the chest register. "Pinched" and "breathy" are a whole different dimension and independent of the registers. It's impossible to use a pinched or breathy voice in the lowest chest register though, and it's also virtually impossible to use a breathy voice in the highest falsetto.