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I am a pre-T, pre-OP, agendered ftm transexual - I think?

Started by viktor_tokyo, June 25, 2014, 03:44:48 AM

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viktor_tokyo

Hey all,

I started my gender journey for real (meaning got proactive about it) starting last year. I overthink everything in all sorts of rollercoaster loops so I'm finally seeing a gender specialist to help sort it out. Looks like it'll take a few months!

In the meantime, I've been checking out sites like Susan's and reading everyone's amazing stories. Everyone is so different so I was wondering if there are any people that are similar to me in terms of how they frame their issues.

Things that bother me:
- my chest (except during sex)
- my lack of penis in terms of looks, peeing, and for PIV sex
- wearing a strapon for sex depresses me (just wearing is fine)
- my cute baby face (note I don't really look like a baby, I just look like a prepubescent boy to me)
- my high voice
- no beard
- standing next to alpha guys (I start feeling territorial and ashamed about my puniness)
- in my 30s my thighs and hips decided to explode :(
- wearing women's clothes
- my small shoulders

Things that don't bother me:
- Pronouns
- Using the women's bathroom (I love it)
- My vagina / period
- Not being referred to as a guy

It's weird, like I love looking at my body until I see my head attached to it, then I feel like yuck. But when I see just my face, I'm fine.

I sort of imagine myself taking T, getting a lower voice, getting hairy, and being a male woman. Does that even make sense?


So I was thinking I'm agendered yet transexual. Did anyone every experience your transiness this way?
  •  

ChrisRokk

That's great that you are seeing a therapist that specializes in gender!

It seems like everyone has different things that bother them more than others.  I can relate on pronouns and not being called a guy (even though that never happens anymore except with my parents).  Honestly other people's perception of me barely matters; it was my own perception of my body that was driving me nuts.  So yes, you are not alone in that.  Some trans people have no social dysphoria.

Oh yeah, and I kind of miss how clean women's bathrooms are.  I almost got seriously hurt (and almost hurt another guy, too) sliding in a puddle of urine a few days ago.  I can honestly say that never happened to me in a women's restroom.  So yeah, you are not alone in that, either.
  •  

Pictrig18

Good for you for seeing a specialist - that will definitely help you sort all of these feelings out. I don't think it is strange to have such a mix of feelings at all - and even having them change over time.

I cannot relate to being okay with my chest during sex - I was not okay with it at all and that's why I had surgery. But it sounds like you may not want to go that route since you do enjoy them for that. Maybe you would just be okay binding when needed?

I can understand not liking your high voice, being next to other guys and feeling strange/inadequate, and having to use a strap-on/not having a penis...but then I do not long for a beard and I hate having a period (a reminder of what is really there).

I think it is totally okay if you want to take T and still be a woman. I have no clue what to call that since I am in no way label-savy. But it doesn't need a name. If you and your therapist explore things and find this is best for you, that's great. I know it's hard to not be exactly FTM or some other specific label - it makes it difficult to explain to others. But you owe no one an explanation. You are you. And you do for yourself what makes you happy. It hurts no one else and you are still the same good person you were before. I feel like I do not fit the true, full FTM label - I have had top surgery, wear men's clothes, have short hair, etc. but I have not changed my name or pronouns and have no plans to be on T - I would like some of the effects but not others.

And remember things can and will change. Your best bet is to explore and try everything you can - many of this is reversible. And that which isn't your therapist will help you to be sure it is the right decision for you.

And I have to second loving the cleanliness of the women's restroom vs. the men's. It's almost worth the strange looks I often get when using the women's. I try to avoid public restrooms at all cost to avoid the issue completely.
  •  

aleon515

Not trying to "get rid of you" but there is a non-binary forum within susan's. Maybe you would enjoy that too.
There is nothing wrong with any of that, though I don't think that in your case the term "transsexual" probably applies (I think it might confuse providers). But whatever floats your boat. Keep in mind, that if you take T, you will eventually be chased out of the women's room, perhaps with a purse or even fists!

--Jay
  •  

Edge

I think the term transsexual fits although that may just be my understanding of the definition. You want to change your body (and what most people refer to when they mean sex) to look more male right? Transitioning sex. If gender is separate from sex (which many people say), then it would make perfect sense to feel your sex should be male and your gender is non-binary. I hope I make sense. Even in my views (it confuses me why brain sex is called gender and the rest of the body's sex is called sex especially since the brain is the most important organ), it makes sense since sex/gender is not as strictly binary as people think it is.
When I was still questioning when my gender, I came to the conclusion that my sex was supposed to be male regardless of what gender I identify as. I later realized my gender was mostly male too though, so I don't know if that helps any. It did lift a huge weight off my shoulders though.
  •  

viktor_tokyo

Quote from: ChrisRokk on June 25, 2014, 09:52:00 AM
That's great that you are seeing a therapist that specializes in gender!

It seems like everyone has different things that bother them more than others.  I can relate on pronouns and not being called a guy (even though that never happens anymore except with my parents).  Honestly other people's perception of me barely matters; it was my own perception of my body that was driving me nuts.  So yes, you are not alone in that.  Some trans people have no social dysphoria.

Oh yeah, and I kind of miss how clean women's bathrooms are.  I almost got seriously hurt (and almost hurt another guy, too) sliding in a puddle of urine a few days ago.  I can honestly say that never happened to me in a women's restroom.  So yeah, you are not alone in that, either.

Wow awesome, yeah that's exactly what I mean!

I'm really curious, if you don't mind my asking, how did you know you wanted to have a male body, when you didn't have a strong desire for the social aspects? For me, I thought every girl wanted a penis, so I was really shocked when I found out that's not the case at all, lol. Also for the longest time I thought I didn't want breasts just because I disliked the male gaze. Last year was when I saw an ftm guy for the first time in my life, and everything clicked.

Quote from: Pictrig18 on June 25, 2014, 10:19:15 AM
Good for you for seeing a specialist - that will definitely help you sort all of these feelings out. I don't think it is strange to have such a mix of feelings at all - and even having them change over time.

I cannot relate to being okay with my chest during sex - I was not okay with it at all and that's why I had surgery. But it sounds like you may not want to go that route since you do enjoy them for that. Maybe you would just be okay binding when needed?

I can understand not liking your high voice, being next to other guys and feeling strange/inadequate, and having to use a strap-on/not having a penis...but then I do not long for a beard and I hate having a period (a reminder of what is really there).

I think it is totally okay if you want to take T and still be a woman. I have no clue what to call that since I am in no way label-savy. But it doesn't need a name. If you and your therapist explore things and find this is best for you, that's great. I know it's hard to not be exactly FTM or some other specific label - it makes it difficult to explain to others. But you owe no one an explanation. You are you. And you do for yourself what makes you happy. It hurts no one else and you are still the same good person you were before. I feel like I do not fit the true, full FTM label - I have had top surgery, wear men's clothes, have short hair, etc. but I have not changed my name or pronouns and have no plans to be on T - I would like some of the effects but not others.

And remember things can and will change. Your best bet is to explore and try everything you can - many of this is reversible. And that which isn't your therapist will help you to be sure it is the right decision for you.

And I have to second loving the cleanliness of the women's restroom vs. the men's. It's almost worth the strange looks I often get when using the women's. I try to avoid public restrooms at all cost to avoid the issue completely.

Thanks for sharing. That's a very interesting blend. It sounds to me like you have very clear ideas about what you want and don't want. Did it take a lot of experimentation to reach the clarity you're at now, or was it pretty clear from the start? Are you unsure of anything right now?

Quote from: aleon515 on June 25, 2014, 11:53:56 AM
Not trying to "get rid of you" but there is a non-binary forum within susan's. Maybe you would enjoy that too.
There is nothing wrong with any of that, though I don't think that in your case the term "transsexual" probably applies (I think it might confuse providers). But whatever floats your boat. Keep in mind, that if you take T, you will eventually be chased out of the women's room, perhaps with a purse or even fists!

--Jay

Ah, yeah sorry if I'm in the wrong place. It's just that I do feel I should be physically male, and I don't feel "in between male and female / mix / shift between the two" really. My "femaleness" doesn't really bother me (it's just kind of there), it's more of the obvious lack of "maleness" that gets me (no penis, non-male silhouette). Yeah haha, not looking forward to that day. I so wish everything was co-ed. I mean I love being around women. I'll definitely check out the other thread.

Quote from: Edge on June 25, 2014, 12:24:24 PM
I think the term transsexual fits although that may just be my understanding of the definition. You want to change your body (and what most people refer to when they mean sex) to look more male right? Transitioning sex. If gender is separate from sex (which many people say), then it would make perfect sense to feel your sex should be male and your gender is non-binary. I hope I make sense. Even in my views (it confuses me why brain sex is called gender and the rest of the body's sex is called sex especially since the brain is the most important organ), it makes sense since sex/gender is not as strictly binary as people think it is.
When I was still questioning when my gender, I came to the conclusion that my sex was supposed to be male regardless of what gender I identify as. I later realized my gender was mostly male too though, so I don't know if that helps any. It did lift a huge weight off my shoulders though.

Wow yeah that's what I'm thinking too, about the difference between gender and sex. I guess if I transition physically I can imagine starting to identify as male. How did you come to your conclusion that you should be male regardless? I'm starting to go that route (physical is what matters), but I get pangs of doubt, mostly from fear I think though.



Thanks guys it's really great to hear your thoughts.
  •  

Edge

Quote from: viktor_tokyo on June 26, 2014, 06:29:54 AMWow yeah that's what I'm thinking too, about the difference between gender and sex. I guess if I transition physically I can imagine starting to identify as male. How did you come to your conclusion that you should be male regardless? I'm starting to go that route (physical is what matters), but I get pangs of doubt, mostly from fear I think though.
I'm not sure exactly. I guess it was a combination of every step towards male made me feel happier and every step back towards female made me feel uncomfortable and my body dysphoria got to be present even when I thought I felt female.

Quote from: viktor_tokyo on June 26, 2014, 06:29:54 AMThanks guys it's really great to hear your thoughts.
It's good to hear yours too. It's an interesting discussion.
  •  

viktor_tokyo

Quote from: Edge on June 26, 2014, 06:49:46 AM
I'm not sure exactly. I guess it was a combination of every step towards male made me feel happier and every step back towards female made me feel uncomfortable and my body dysphoria got to be present even when I thought I felt female.
It's good to hear yours too. It's an interesting discussion.

I just checked some older posts of yours (from your sig) and wow looks very much like the thoughts I have now.
Trying to not look like a butch lady - yes! I try to look like a gay guy, which has been working OK I guess.

Every step I take does make me feel better. I have some more hope now. :) Thanks.
  •  

Pictrig18

Quote from: viktor_tokyo on June 26, 2014, 06:29:54 AM

Thanks for sharing. That's a very interesting blend. It sounds to me like you have very clear ideas about what you want and don't want. Did it take a lot of experimentation to reach the clarity you're at now, or was it pretty clear from the start? Are you unsure of anything right now?


Hah, well, I may have made them sound very clear but honestly I'm just at the beginning of my journey and I know my feelings will likely change. Really thinking about it now, I can already see that - before having top surgery I thought I would never want to be shirtless after because I just didn't desire it/wouldn't be comfortable still. And yet afterward now, I love it. I never imagined how right it would feel. So, I suppose I should clarify that what I replied is where I am now...ask me where I was a year ago and you wouldn't believe it. I am very unsure of so many things - I think that is what scares me about using T - that and the unpredictability of the specific effects on each individual.

I agree with Edge - take it step by step and see how you feel. You could be happily surprised :)
  •  

ChrisRokk

Quote from: viktor_tokyo on June 26, 2014, 06:29:54 AM
Wow awesome, yeah that's exactly what I mean!

I'm really curious, if you don't mind my asking, how did you know you wanted to have a male body, when you didn't have a strong desire for the social aspects? For me, I thought every girl wanted a penis, so I was really shocked when I found out that's not the case at all, lol. Also for the longest time I thought I didn't want breasts just because I disliked the male gaze. Last year was when I saw an ftm guy for the first time in my life, and everything clicked.

Whenever I was 11 and my breast started to develop, I would always try to stand slightly hunched so they wouldn't be visible.  I prayed that they wouldn't grow anymore, and I got lucky that they actually didn't.  Also I feel like I have "phantom penis" sometimes, and I do not like anything entering me down there.  I literally cannot feel anything in my parts except the parts that are homologous to the penis, if that makes any sense.  Also the idea of going through some of the female associated life processes myself, especially pregnancy, completely disgusted me.  I also always wanted to be bigger and stronger, and I did get quite strong with my female body several times, but always wrecked my body with drugs/alcohol/eating disorders because I wasn't dealing with my real problems.  I always felt strange about my body, but I was unaware that I could take hormones and I would actually turn out very masculine looking, as I had only met one FTM ever and he was effeminate.  In retrospect I realize he probably only had top surgery and did not do the whole HRT thing yet or wasn't planning on it.  After much internet research, working in a lab and handling androgens, talking to old men in science who you think would be transphobic but actually were quite the opposite (I really should send a letter to my reproductive physiology professor thanking him), and accidentally meeting some other trans males, I finally realized that testosterone wouldn't hurt me, and it turns out I am actually healthier and my cholesterol didn't even increase, go figure.  Also I am 29 and have only been on HRT for 11 months, so it took me a while to go through the whole realization process.  It's a complicated process for most of us, I think.
  •  

viktor_tokyo

Quote from: Pictrig18 on June 26, 2014, 08:24:37 AM
Hah, well, I may have made them sound very clear but honestly I'm just at the beginning of my journey and I know my feelings will likely change. Really thinking about it now, I can already see that - before having top surgery I thought I would never want to be shirtless after because I just didn't desire it/wouldn't be comfortable still. And yet afterward now, I love it. I never imagined how right it would feel. So, I suppose I should clarify that what I replied is where I am now...ask me where I was a year ago and you wouldn't believe it. I am very unsure of so many things - I think that is what scares me about using T - that and the unpredictability of the specific effects on each individual.

I agree with Edge - take it step by step and see how you feel. You could be happily surprised :)
Yeah, that's sound advice for sure. Looks like it's working well for you, so definitely has weight to it. I would love to be shirtless, damn. What sort of things are you afraid about T? For me, this is very vain but... balding worries me...lol. On a serious note, I do wonder about the effects it has on your health long term.

Quote from: ChrisRokk on June 26, 2014, 09:16:19 AM
Whenever I was 11 and my breast started to develop, I would always try to stand slightly hunched so they wouldn't be visible.  I prayed that they wouldn't grow anymore, and I got lucky that they actually didn't.  Also I feel like I have "phantom penis" sometimes, and I do not like anything entering me down there.  I literally cannot feel anything in my parts except the parts that are homologous to the penis, if that makes any sense.  Also the idea of going through some of the female associated life processes myself, especially pregnancy, completely disgusted me.  I also always wanted to be bigger and stronger, and I did get quite strong with my female body several times, but always wrecked my body with drugs/alcohol/eating disorders because I wasn't dealing with my real problems.  I always felt strange about my body, but I was unaware that I could take hormones and I would actually turn out very masculine looking, as I had only met one FTM ever and he was effeminate.  In retrospect I realize he probably only had top surgery and did not do the whole HRT thing yet or wasn't planning on it.  After much internet research, working in a lab and handling androgens, talking to old men in science who you think would be transphobic but actually were quite the opposite (I really should send a letter to my reproductive physiology professor thanking him), and accidentally meeting some other trans males, I finally realized that testosterone wouldn't hurt me, and it turns out I am actually healthier and my cholesterol didn't even increase, go figure.  Also I am 29 and have only been on HRT for 11 months, so it took me a while to go through the whole realization process.  It's a complicated process for most of us, I think.

Ah, yeah I do the same thing, bad posture to hide my breasts. I hated how sloppy and unconfident it made me look though.
That's really interesting about your dealings with androgens... are you a scientist? Do you think you're healthier because you're happier? Sounds like you had quite the journey though, glad (or hope) things are working out well for you.
  •  

ChrisRokk

Quote from: viktor_tokyo on June 26, 2014, 10:02:35 AM
Ah, yeah I do the same thing, bad posture to hide my breasts. I hated how sloppy and unconfident it made me look though.
That's really interesting about your dealings with androgens... are you a scientist? Do you think you're healthier because you're happier? Sounds like you had quite the journey though, glad (or hope) things are working out well for you.

I used to work in a prostate cancer research lab.  I am in school for neuroscience now, though.

As far as health goes, it's really complicated.  Testosterone can either help, hurt, or be neutral toward your health depending on your baseline and pre existing health issues.  I tended to have very low cholesterol, low iron, and I had virtually no gonadal hormones.  So for me, not only am I happier and taking better care of myself, but I think some of the "negative" side effects were actually positives for me.  This is definitely not the case for everyone, but I am sure whenever you get to see a doctor they can help you figure out all the risks and benefits for you.
  •  

Edge

Quote from: ChrisRokk on June 26, 2014, 12:01:24 PMI am in school for neuroscience now, though.
Hey, me too. Sort of. I'm starting third year Bachelor of Science in biology and still on mostly second year courses due to scheduling issues, but I plan to go on to study neuroscience. (Sorry for the slight derailment.)
  •  

ChrisRokk

Quote from: Edge on June 26, 2014, 01:10:26 PM
Hey, me too. Sort of. I'm starting third year Bachelor of Science in biology and still on mostly second year courses due to scheduling issues, but I plan to go on to study neuroscience. (Sorry for the slight derailment.)

That's awesome!  It's good to see more people getting into neuroscience.  My undergrad was in biology as well.
  •  

Edge

  •  

viktor_tokyo

Quote from: ChrisRokk on June 26, 2014, 01:59:22 PM
That's awesome!  It's good to see more people getting into neuroscience.  My undergrad was in biology as well.
Quote from: Edge on June 26, 2014, 02:08:28 PM
Brains are f-ing fascinating.

Haha, wow that's very awesome you both study the neuroscience! I recently read a book called "Brain Rules" (a layman's book on the brain :)) and it completely blew me away.

Also the only reason I was able to give a chance to the idea that I could be a transexual was when I read about hormones washing over the baby and hardcoding a sex into their brain. Whether this is true or not I have no idea, but just wanted to say, neuroscience is something I really believe in. Are there any studies on the brains of transgender persons that is a good read, that's not well known to the general public?
  •  

Ephemeral

Quote from: Edge on June 25, 2014, 12:24:24 PM
I think the term transsexual fits although that may just be my understanding of the definition. You want to change your body (and what most people refer to when they mean sex) to look more male right? Transitioning sex. If gender is separate from sex (which many people say), then it would make perfect sense to feel your sex should be male and your gender is non-binary. I hope I make sense. Even in my views (it confuses me why brain sex is called gender and the rest of the body's sex is called sex especially since the brain is the most important organ), it makes sense since sex/gender is not as strictly binary as people think it is.
When I was still questioning when my gender, I came to the conclusion that my sex was supposed to be male regardless of what gender I identify as. I later realized my gender was mostly male too though, so I don't know if that helps any. It did lift a huge weight off my shoulders though.

No, that is not what transsexualism as a clinical diagnosis refers to but this:

Diagnosis[edit]
Transsexualism appears in the two major diagnostic manuals used by mental health professionals worldwide, the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM, currently in its fifth edition) and the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD, currently in its tenth edition). The ICD-10 incorporates transsexualism, dual role transvestism and gender identity disorder of childhood into its gender identity disorder category, and defines transsexualism as "[a] desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex."[4] The DSM does not distinguish between gender identity disorder and transsexualism, and defines transvestic fetishism as a separate phenomenon which may co-occur with transsexualism. The DSM diagnosis requires four components:[5]

*A desire or insistence that one is of the opposite biological sex (that is not due to a perceived advantage of being the other sex)
*Evidence of persistent discomfort with, and perceived inappropriateness of the individual's biological sex
*The individual is not intersex (although a diagnosis of GID Not Otherwise Specified is available, which enables intersex people who reject their sex-assignment to access transsexual treatments)
*Evidence of clinically significant distress or impairment in work or social life.

ICD10 also refers to transsexualism as a personality disorder.

What is important to note with transsexualism is that transsexuals desire to live and have a body as the opposite sex that was assigned to them at birth i.e. transsexuals are gender-binary but seek to change from man to woman or woman to man as opposed to man to X or woman to X.

I would for example be considered an transsexual (still awaiting official diagnosis but inbetween my investigators and I, I think there is little doubt that I fit the classification of transsexualism though I abhor to call myself a transsexual for the same reason I abhor calling myself FTM more than for the ease of reference in transgender circles) because I was born female and classified as such, desire to be male and live my life as a male.

Hence transgender is actually a more apt label to refer to when it comes to all those who are non-binary e.g. the OP. They would not be considered transsexual in the strict use of the term, though may still get it as a diagnosis depending on where they live in order to experience full treatment i.e. HRT, surgery etc.

When it comes to gender and sex, I think gender identity can be complex in that some people like one of my friends identifies more as female but does not experience any body dysphoria and is more of a bigendered individual in that he feels that he can switch identities though he lives as a male (hence I refer to him as such). However, transsexualism specifically refers to when one's identity matches the gender binary e.g. male body and male identity. So you would be considered TS but not the OP since you want a male body and by and large, has a male identity.

Also to the OP, being confused at the beginning is normal. I think most of us were, especially once we got to the point where we began to really explore ourselves and our identities and what it is we really felt and wanted. Some people are lucky and just knew at a certain point in life who they are and how they felt, but some of us not so much. I only realized almost exactly a year ago what I wanted though I had felt "off" at least since my teens, and I second that every step towards male feels so much better than female, even the parts I don't like about the male body such as body hair.

And it's not vain to be afraid of going bald. Bio guys are afraid of it too and for a reason. It's very stigmatized despite being so common. The best way of knowing what it is you want is through trial and error, pretty much. There is no other real way of fully knowing whether it is something you want or not. It's a lot of "feeling through" process, or was at least for me, to see how far I wanted to go especially because I was initially very reluctant about my identity thinking it was all in my head and I was making things up. I wanted to remain female because it's so much easier obviously, but once you know there's no going back. At least not for me. I cannot lie to myself.

I don't regret anything I've done thus far, personally. I have my own idea of how to be masculine which is still within the masculine range but feminized (I dislike that word, it's so binary-driven but whatever). So maybe one day you will find out that there are things you thought you didn't mind that you will later mind and things you mind and later don't mind. I felt that way about beard growth for example. I have been on T for over 4 months so I get a lot of fuzzy hair if I don't shave somewhat regularly, and while I initially really disliked the idea of having a beard I have grown accustomed to the idea that I like it as a potential to have. I don't feel beard defines my masculinity like a lot of other guys do it though, far from. I do however feel that there's a nice inclusion in having a beard or at least doing facial shaving in that it's a ritual that's almost explicitly male and with that ritual there's a sense of inclusion. Some people may not find that important, some people do. Personally I do want to feel a part of the male sex and gender so at some level having things and doing things that can make me associate myself with masculinity and maleness in a larger context is of course affirming for myself and feels good and right. Especially for non-binary individuals, this may not be a problem.

To clarify, what is the most important to understand when it comes to T is that there is no pick and choose though I bet 99% of the guys out there would gladly pick and choose if they just could. If you want a deeper voice you cannot have your period for example, unless you take T and stop at least. But that also means beard growth or something resembling beard growth among other things. So I advice thinking over what it is you want from T and what it is you do not want from T. There are ways to gain a deeper voice naturally for women called Natural Testosterone (NT) which does not include taking T as an additive substance and may therefore not have any other real effects outside of this, though it requires a lot of lifestyle changes that may or may not be up your alley. NT does not guarantee that your voice will drop either.

So yes, seeing a therapist is a good thing.
Come watch with me as our world burns.
  •  

viktor_tokyo

Quote from: Ephemeral on June 28, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
No, that is not what transsexualism as a clinical diagnosis refers to but this:

Diagnosis[edit]
Transsexualism appears in the two major diagnostic manuals used by mental health professionals worldwide, the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM, currently in its fifth edition) and the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ICD, currently in its tenth edition). The ICD-10 incorporates transsexualism, dual role transvestism and gender identity disorder of childhood into its gender identity disorder category, and defines transsexualism as "[a] desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex."[4] The DSM does not distinguish between gender identity disorder and transsexualism, and defines transvestic fetishism as a separate phenomenon which may co-occur with transsexualism. The DSM diagnosis requires four components:[5]

*A desire or insistence that one is of the opposite biological sex (that is not due to a perceived advantage of being the other sex)
*Evidence of persistent discomfort with, and perceived inappropriateness of the individual's biological sex
*The individual is not intersex (although a diagnosis of GID Not Otherwise Specified is available, which enables intersex people who reject their sex-assignment to access transsexual treatments)
*Evidence of clinically significant distress or impairment in work or social life.

ICD10 also refers to transsexualism as a personality disorder.

What is important to note with transsexualism is that transsexuals desire to live and have a body as the opposite sex that was assigned to them at birth i.e. transsexuals are gender-binary but seek to change from man to woman or woman to man as opposed to man to X or woman to X.

I would for example be considered an transsexual (still awaiting official diagnosis but inbetween my investigators and I, I think there is little doubt that I fit the classification of transsexualism though I abhor to call myself a transsexual for the same reason I abhor calling myself FTM more than for the ease of reference in transgender circles) because I was born female and classified as such, desire to be male and live my life as a male.

Hence transgender is actually a more apt label to refer to when it comes to all those who are non-binary e.g. the OP. They would not be considered transsexual in the strict use of the term, though may still get it as a diagnosis depending on where they live in order to experience full treatment i.e. HRT, surgery etc.

When it comes to gender and sex, I think gender identity can be complex in that some people like one of my friends identifies more as female but does not experience any body dysphoria and is more of a bigendered individual in that he feels that he can switch identities though he lives as a male (hence I refer to him as such). However, transsexualism specifically refers to when one's identity matches the gender binary e.g. male body and male identity. So you would be considered TS but not the OP since you want a male body and by and large, has a male identity.

Also to the OP, being confused at the beginning is normal. I think most of us were, especially once we got to the point where we began to really explore ourselves and our identities and what it is we really felt and wanted. Some people are lucky and just knew at a certain point in life who they are and how they felt, but some of us not so much. I only realized almost exactly a year ago what I wanted though I had felt "off" at least since my teens, and I second that every step towards male feels so much better than female, even the parts I don't like about the male body such as body hair.

And it's not vain to be afraid of going bald. Bio guys are afraid of it too and for a reason. It's very stigmatized despite being so common. The best way of knowing what it is you want is through trial and error, pretty much. There is no other real way of fully knowing whether it is something you want or not. It's a lot of "feeling through" process, or was at least for me, to see how far I wanted to go especially because I was initially very reluctant about my identity thinking it was all in my head and I was making things up. I wanted to remain female because it's so much easier obviously, but once you know there's no going back. At least not for me. I cannot lie to myself.

I don't regret anything I've done thus far, personally. I have my own idea of how to be masculine which is still within the masculine range but feminized (I dislike that word, it's so binary-driven but whatever). So maybe one day you will find out that there are things you thought you didn't mind that you will later mind and things you mind and later don't mind. I felt that way about beard growth for example. I have been on T for over 4 months so I get a lot of fuzzy hair if I don't shave somewhat regularly, and while I initially really disliked the idea of having a beard I have grown accustomed to the idea that I like it as a potential to have. I don't feel beard defines my masculinity like a lot of other guys do it though, far from. I do however feel that there's a nice inclusion in having a beard or at least doing facial shaving in that it's a ritual that's almost explicitly male and with that ritual there's a sense of inclusion. Some people may not find that important, some people do. Personally I do want to feel a part of the male sex and gender so at some level having things and doing things that can make me associate myself with masculinity and maleness in a larger context is of course affirming for myself and feels good and right. Especially for non-binary individuals, this may not be a problem.

To clarify, what is the most important to understand when it comes to T is that there is no pick and choose though I bet 99% of the guys out there would gladly pick and choose if they just could. If you want a deeper voice you cannot have your period for example, unless you take T and stop at least. But that also means beard growth or something resembling beard growth among other things. So I advice thinking over what it is you want from T and what it is you do not want from T. There are ways to gain a deeper voice naturally for women called Natural Testosterone (NT) which does not include taking T as an additive substance and may therefore not have any other real effects outside of this, though it requires a lot of lifestyle changes that may or may not be up your alley. NT does not guarantee that your voice will drop either.

So yes, seeing a therapist is a good thing.

Hey wow, thanks for such an in-depth response! Really interesting.

I pretty much agree with the context of what you're saying, while still agreeing what everyone else (including myself) has said so far at the same time. After reading your post, I came to the idea that maybe a lot of the differences mentioned here are the differences between the effects resulting from the same source - one's sex perceived by its own brain is different from the sex it perceives from outside feedback. How the brain prioritized the feedback (the body, or how it is socially treated, or whatever makes the brain conscious of the gap between its own perception versus "the reality") is what I think is causing all these differences in definitions, while it's all talking about the same thing. I made a graphic trying to explain what the "primary" issue is.  :)

https://38.media.tumblr.com/f5afbc0f5ef02b53e731832784032e98/tumblr_n81dciAiZk1qgxq92o1_500.png
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pianoforte

I totally get a lot of what you are saying.

My bodily dysphoria is somewhat opposite of yours, but I also have a non-binary gender identity while feeling a definite lack of maleness in my body.

I'm still super early/questioning things, and I can definitely see where you are coming from.
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viktor_tokyo

Quote from: pianoforte on July 02, 2014, 11:23:58 PM
I totally get a lot of what you are saying.

My bodily dysphoria is somewhat opposite of yours, but I also have a non-binary gender identity while feeling a definite lack of maleness in my body.

I'm still super early/questioning things, and I can definitely see where you are coming from.

Hi pianoforte, was curious what you meant by opposite?
Yeah and me too for just starting out, I hope we find our way.
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