Quote from: Jill F on May 14, 2014, 12:12:31 PM
^THIS^  It's all about forming an emotional bond.  Looks are hardly a factor to me, as youth and conventional beauty fades with time.  Inner beauty is everything to me.  And from your statement before, I'd love to kick Hugh Hefner in the balls for propagating standards for both men and women that are so damaging and unrealistic.

Ah, I wish I were more like this. I'm still susceptible to yumminess. I like being with people I'm both emotionally bonded with and can't get enough of in bed. :p

Quote from: mandonlym on May 14, 2014, 12:49:19 AM
Does your presentation overlap with your perception of attractiveness or what it means to be an "ideal" version of whichever gender you feel like being? I became keenly aware that I am a much better looking mainstream woman than a man and I won't deny that this was a factor in my transition, given my inherent gender queerness. Now that I've had that experience of being attractive and such and desired in that way, it's not really something I seek out anymore and I feel like I'm freer to express whatever gender I feel like.

Oh, definitely not. I would (and sometimes do) make an EXTREMELY attractive woman; this was hard to see when I was younger and still struggling with my self concept and issues with androgyny (although I didn't know that at the time), but I recognize that even though I'm definitely chubbier than the ideal for either binary gender, I'm much, MUCH closer to the feminine ideal than the masculine one. I even have the body for it - 40", 34", 44" - pretty dang close to the hourglass figure that any average girl would probably be happy to have. I've gotten compliments before and I take them gladly, but presenting as female all the time just because I have the face and body for it isn't what I want at all. In fact, that's a big part of the problem. It's very easy to be a girl, not so easy (scratch that, nearly impossible) to be a guy. Could I change this? With some exercise and surgery and HRT, yes... but would that actually solve the problem, or would I just have exactly the reverse of the problem I have right now?

QuoteWith the inner beauty stuff it's both true and not true... I don't think inner or outer beauty exclusively exists but they happen in tandem. I was brought up with a really strong notion of inner beauty so I think it allowed people to better understand why I'm attractive even when I wasn't mainstream attractive, and then when there was more of a match between inner and outer beauty it made me more desirable. Thing is though that beauty fades and it's ultimately the genuine connections you make that's important. Outer attractiveness helps in that you have more options, but a vast majority of people can find other people to love and be loved by.

This is true. But it's not about being attractive. It's about not being wrong. And it's very hard to not be wrong when you don't even know what your "right" is supposed to be...

Like, I wish I could just say, "my body is right because I'm a woman; aside from occasional bouts of weight or other superficial trait-related self image issues that every woman has occasionally, I like how I look" or, "my body is wrong because I'm a man. I'm going to save up for surgery and fix everything, and then live my life in peace." And then just have that be that, end of story. But that's not the case. Neither of those are the case, and it's frustrating like nothing else I've ever had to deal with.

Since physical dysphoria recently kicked my butt, and has now reset through reconnecting with my center spiritually, I am not sure where this goes but it seems to me that the dissatisfaction if it gets to be too much is not a good thing.  I have to look at the mirror and see the things that are so valid, find that which is attractive, if male, then let the female side appreciate, if female, let the male appreciate her too.  So in the fluidity, both identities and physical expressions can be more valued.

That said, I wish my body would get more female on these hormones.  I am halfway into the process now.

I hope that helps, seeing from different paradynes, if I am using that big word right.

Yes I am a dork.  .  But what is a dork?  I can be whoever you want me to be....

SJ

I hope that the following makes some sense as over time my dissatisfaction has moved from achieving a physical to an emotional or spiritual ideal.   Being satisfied with my presentation is currently a bridge too far.   I can see that a neutral or more nuanced and less binarised presentation works better for me.  However as Incremental physical change takes time and subtle gender cues or accents are often lost on the audience, my search is for an authentic emotional and spiritual presentation or presence untainted by ego, gender etc.   

My goal or quest is therefore not to achieve a 'situationally perfect' gender presentation but is more of a search for the emotional and spiritual expression most appropriate to a given situation or point in time.  When I am on my game I feel fully present and in the moment - intensely, empathetically conjoined or connected to the audience, my partner etc.

But as soon as my partner moves or changes I must rebalance and reexpress, it requires a counter step to every step of my partner.  It feels like a dance.  At its best I flow naturally and smoothly from one authentic expression to the next, a dance of the spirits.  To lead or not to lead is irrelevant as we meld and grow together.    I am at my best when gender isn't a conscious thought or presence and my focus is solely on connection with my partner.    At my worst I feel out of step, clumsy, self conscious, constructed and forced. 

Being on my game is unfortunately the exception rather than the norm so I am in a sense rarely satisfied.  However I am getting better, I am evolving and this is a good thing.

Aisla

Quote from: FalseHybridPrincess on May 12, 2014, 02:08:47 AM
I know that feel...

I dont even know what I am and Im not even gonna bother writting it down now...
But Im currently not satisfied and I wonder if I ever will be...

lets say that for a gender neutral person things can get frustrating with the whole guys do this/girls do this stuff...
and we non binary people basically dont even exist...its male or female in society , we have to struggle in order to be heard...

*sigh*

Dont focuse on the guys do that girls do this stuff. Dont forget normal is the illusion of a majoraty vote. And gender based supposed to be`s are a weapon of opression through unfair exspectations centered around those illusions.

Take every thing material away and what your left with is you. This is your gender, their are as many genders as their are people, but since humanity is a pack mentality we as people need to fit in. We end up forming similer people together and creating a word for them, but this process isnt this person is the same as that, but more a this person is like that.

I think what your struggling with isnt what/whu you are, but struggling finding a word to describe it, when that word might not exsist yet. So your trying to fit into society by trying to fit into a box that might not be the right shape.

There will always be exceptions. And the only fair thing is for society to do is stop placing lables to start with. its this boys or girls are like this and that, that i strongly beleive make living pre transition so difficult for trans persons to start with.

so live life without one antill labels fade or one is their that fits you. its the only fair thing for you.

I Know it might not be of any help but.

Eceptional human beings is what i think off when i see none binery discussions.

Quote from: ethereal-ineffability on May 14, 2014, 10:33:43 PM
Oh, definitely not. I would (and sometimes do) make an EXTREMELY attractive woman; this was hard to see when I was younger and still struggling with my self concept and issues with androgyny (although I didn't know that at the time), but I recognize that even though I'm definitely chubbier than the ideal for either binary gender, I'm much, MUCH closer to the feminine ideal than the masculine one. I even have the body for it - 40", 34", 44" - pretty dang close to the hourglass figure that any average girl would probably be happy to have. I've gotten compliments before and I take them gladly, but presenting as female all the time just because I have the face and body for it isn't what I want at all. In fact, that's a big part of the problem. It's very easy to be a girl, not so easy (scratch that, nearly impossible) to be a guy. Could I change this? With some exercise and surgery and HRT, yes... but would that actually solve the problem, or would I just have exactly the reverse of the problem I have right now?

Yeah I think a difference between us is that because my body shape is more androgynous and also my face is generally feminine but has some masculine features like a strong jaw and brow, I can manipulate my presentation more easily. I'm not sure what the solution is for you. People I know who feel this way and can't resolve generally end up living in big cities where they can live out how they feel and be visibly trans / genderqueer etc.

Because of this thing I called modular body dysmorphia. A while back what would happen is that the more I felt male the more I thought I looked too female and the more I felt female the more I thought I looked too male. As for presentation well one will always thrive at the expense of the other, one necessarily invalidates the other. You can't exert antagonistic attributes and expect people to have a dynamic, reactive and modular perception of you because generally speaking people's identity are fixed and not in constant permutation.

Quote from: Seyranna on June 02, 2014, 10:15:27 AM
Because of this thing I called modular body dysmorphia. A while back what would happen is that the more I felt male the more I thought I looked too female and the more I felt female the more I thought I looked too male. As for presentation well one will always thrive at the expense of the other, one necessarily invalidates the other. You can't exert antagonistic attributes and expect people to have a dynamic, reactive and modular perception of you because generally speaking people's identity are fixed and not in constant permutation.

Well stated!

Quote from: Seyranna on June 02, 2014, 10:15:27 AM
Because of this thing I called modular body dysmorphia. A while back what would happen is that the more I felt male the more I thought I looked too female and the more I felt female the more I thought I looked too male. As for presentation well one will always thrive at the expense of the other, one necessarily invalidates the other. You can't exert antagonistic attributes and expect people to have a dynamic, reactive and modular perception of you because generally speaking people's identity are fixed and not in constant permutation.

So when you feel like a man, you scrutinise yourself as one, seeing anything that falls into your perspective feminine tick box as a FAIL?
And when you feel like a woman, you scrutinise yourself as one, seeing the masculine attributes as a fail?

So physical appearance self scrutiny is counter productive?
Because the aspect of ones identity in this situation is, appearance self scrutiny as a result of failing to tick all boxes related to one owns or an idea of societies checklist of woman or man?

I know that I am not satisfied at the moment because my confusion and inability to parse what it is I feel or want is very taxing despite having found out that it is alright to be that way. I feel like I need to find the box that I fit into but there really isn't one. I have started to accept that I am allowed to dress the way I want to or to feel the way I do and there's nothing wrong with that when I have spent decades believing there was and letting social pressures get to me. I went to a support group for the first time last night and it helped to hear that others were once where I am and to talk about their own experiences. It gave me some hope that I won't always feel like I'm flailing around but if I never get to that point I at least know there are people around that can help me with that when I felt alone before.

Quote from: Pickles on May 14, 2014, 01:49:07 PM
I'm just a dork. Quote this if you're a dork too!

For sure!

But, in seriousness, I can completely empathize with with original post here. I'm not really sure what I want to become or if I'll ever transition, but I'm unhappy with things as they are. I just want to erase all of the assumptions other people make about my gender.

I don't have much else to add because I've really already said everything I feel that I can think of, but I've been gone a while and it is really comforting coming back to so many replies from a good handful of other people who are in a similar place. Thanks, guys.

I´m an androgyne with a fluid expression. This is no really a problem to me.

I know this feeling. I don't want to look like a boy, I don't want to look like a girl, I want to look androgynous! I hate the fact that I'll never be able to pass as such just because most people don't know what it is. I'll always be gendered no matter what I do. The only way I'll be somewhat happy is if I reach a point where I regularly confuse people.

As a non binary mtf/q I have yet to find the right presentation and hormonal balance to reflect my identity

On the one hand any move from the alpha male that I learned to portray or act was always going to be enormously beneficial but it is has been an ongoing search to achieve the optimal balance. I am now wondering whether that point of balance changes as you grow, and reflects the person or situation that you are with or in, ie more fluid than fixed

Anyway I have almost completed the beard and body hair removal, have started to grow out my hair and groom/ dress more andro. At the same time I have had 2 sets of FAS ie andro FFS, and been on low dose hrt for more than 2 years.  The hrt has been flexed with my endo as I want some physical change but am primarily interested in closing down the dysphoria and gaining greater emotional richness

Along the way I have evolved and also stopped, gone into denial, restarted etc and had a bilateral breast reduction  when my dosage was too high and I was unready for the physical change.  Interestingly I have yet to seriously address my weight. I may be hiding behind this so my next challenge is to shed 40 to 50 lbs from my linebacker frame

So at this stage I am not fully satisfied, and continue my journey,   but I am much closer to my destination and in a far, far better place than when I first set out.  Indeed I feel blessed to be alive at this time and to be as happy as I am

Safe travels

Aisla

Quote from: Aisla on June 29, 2014, 10:40:24 PM
As a non binary mtf/q I have yet to find the right presentation and hormonal balance to reflect my identity

I am now wondering whether that point of balance changes as you grow, and reflects the person or situation that you are with or in, ie more fluid than fixed

Aisla

I think it's safe to say that it's an ongoing process of personal evolution both internally and externally!

The thing that messes with me on this subject has to do with the way that physical dysphoria can be insatiable.  More, more, more.  Never enough body, never enough femininity, push, push, lose the weight, eyes on the body like a teenager.   I just finished cutting weight to 139 at 5'9.  That is directly dysphoric.

I think we need to be satisfied as much as possible with our gains, our self expression and presentations, and staying grounded.

Physical dysphoria can and does eat me for breakfast.  I find that uncomfortable, so I shift to how I feel, as opposed so much to how I look. And I focus on what I like about my body, not what I dislike, and where perception can be manipulated or adjusted, I will do so, like perceiving short hair as more of a lesbian thing, and not a gender determinate thing.

Meanwhile I have some very enticing stuff that I wear underneath and to bed, and that also helps.

It helps focusing on my feelings, my sensuality.   Especially genderqueer.  And when fluidity kicks in, I remain comfortable anyway, I just perceive the other components more, and the opposing component less, all part of a dynamic whole.

That is how it can work for me in a way that is likely to be healthy.  Otherwise I would drive myself nuts and burn with jealousy when I see someone who looks like I wished I did.

Just a thought.

SJ

The physical dysphoria also plays with my mind and is a dangerous mistress indeed. I need to keep reminding myself to focus on more important issues

Aisla

Going on T has opened my world drastically.

Over four years, I have learnt so much about myself, became comfortable expressing femininity and in the process, entered and left a toxic relationship that forced me to look deep inside myself about my feelings over the binary gender. My ex complained that I wasn't a stereotypical male and it was at that point, after two months of constant pressure to stop being feminine, that I realized I never really cared for fulfilling binary gender roles and I certainly wasn't going to start any time soon. My asexuality was causing issues in the bedroom and combined with her high sex drive, that added another reason to the list of why the relationship would not be able to move forward in a healthy manner.

Leaving that relationship, it made me come to terms with my non-binary identity and asexuality. Discovering I never really identified with the male binary was an eye-opener, I found the term, agender and neutrois, they described my feelings quite well but I still prefer to use the label non-binary for simplicity's sake. I desire what I believe to be an androgynous body for myself (e.g. slender, little to no body/facial hair, a mix of feminine/masculine features, flat chest and preferably little to no visible genitalia.)   

Just as there is a difference between androgynous *identity* and androgynous *expression*, there's a pull towards a social role that is either androgynous or which transcends gender.  Particularly in conjunction with expression, we partly do this for the freedom to do what we are most capable and passionate about, but on some level we're trying to act in ways that are good instead of masculine or feminine.  We aren't empathetic ("feminine") and rational ("masculine") because we want a balance but because we're trying to be good human beings.  Of course people frequently defend their gender identity by reinterpreting masculinity and femininity to fit their personality (there are moments where women are the "rational" group and men are the "empathetic" group), so it's definitely feasible to redefine about any identity as as androgynous or blended if we want to, but if we can stop worrying about the gender of things, we have an easier time doing that which we need to do to.  If we surprise ourselves or others in a particular direction, so be it -- derailing gender expectations (and threads) is what comes naturally to us anyway.