nice concept, sadly i doubt it will ever come about.
human nature is a certain way, and no amount of willpower can really change it beyond a point. some things we cant help, some we cant avoid. we can but try...
R

call me elitist, or worried about my own passing, but i really feel uncomfortable around an unpassable transwoman, or trans man. i just hate the social attention thats drawn to a person like that, im very much a creature of the dark...
R

Quotenero raises a sensible point, what about those who _choose_ not to pass, yet demand to be treated and refered to as female only.... ?
R

I think it's acceptable not to want to devote your entire life to "passing" (i.e. acting super-feminine/masculine or going completely stealth). And there are some people who just can't pass. If they demand to be referred to as female or male, we're obligated to. Now, they have no right to get angry if we accidentally refer to them with the wrong pronoun, but we have to try.

A good trans manifesto: remember your early days! Remember when you were just starting to pass -- remember when you were fumbling with bathrooms and pronouns and names! We tend to take passing for granted when we pass well. I pass without question but I remember how hard it was at first, and keep that in mind when I'm around unpassables.

Quote from: almost,angie on September 06, 2007, 04:38:54 AM
:icon_flower:Aloha all, lots of feelings in here.
  11:00pm, Hawaii. Nero you hit it were it`s been hurting and keeping me awake all week/ month/ year, no wait, life. Did you see Carrie? " There all going to laugh at you," I hope one day I can silance that seen in my head.

    When I have come in contact in the past I have noticed I am talking to a woman and wondered if I was like them (denial for safety) I worry heavaly all the time how I`m going to be treated when I am only trying to be a good parent and wife. For me really I cannot live on not seeing myself and not being seen as myself. When I see myself you all will to on here till then I am her in my avitar,
  I am the dalphin playing like a child in the pool
  I am one with the ocean/ water and it`s life
  I am Manu, the shark preying on Mahi mahi
  I am The water and it`s rain making the soothing music to calm life
  I am the air wanting to fly free and circulate the earth
  I am Striving to be what is free

   I think my transition is feuled by how society treats me as a man everytime, everyday, everwere. I am too tired too give it back. I just act as I feel in order to get through my work day and ignore the comments the best I can. It was great when I was young they really thought I was a pretty girl. I remember strangers asking, "why do you cut her hair?" questions. Mom, "He`s a boy"  stranger," he`s too pretty to be a boy". LOL

  I could go on too far but I am mostly into the edjucation I can get in my evenings here. You are all so wonderful,  Mahalo and Aloha ( Thank you, I love you all)  Ang.

Angie, I didn't start this topic to hurt anyone, rather to discuss and explore our own reactions when we encounter someone whose looks don't line up with their gender.

Quote from: Nero on September 07, 2007, 02:20:36 PM

Quote from: almost,angie on September 06, 2007, 04:38:54 AM
:icon_flower:Aloha all, lots of feelings in here.
  11:00pm, Hawaii. Nero you hit it were it`s been hurting and keeping me awake all week/ month/ year, no wait, life. Did you see Carrie? " There all going to laugh at you," I hope one day I can silance that seen in my head.

    When I have come in contact in the past I have noticed I am talking to a woman and wondered if I was like them (denial for safety) I worry heavaly all the time how I`m going to be treated when I am only trying to be a good parent and wife. For me really I cannot live on not seeing myself and not being seen as myself. When I see myself you all will to on here till then I am her in my avitar,
  I am the dalphin playing like a child in the pool
  I am one with the ocean/ water and it`s life
  I am Manu, the shark preying on Mahi mahi
  I am The water and it`s rain making the soothing music to calm life
  I am the air wanting to fly free and circulate the earth
  I am Striving to be what is free

   I think my transition is feuled by how society treats me as a man everytime, everyday, everwere. I am too tired too give it back. I just act as I feel in order to get through my work day and ignore the comments the best I can. It was great when I was young they really thought I was a pretty girl. I remember strangers asking, "why do you cut her hair?" questions. Mom, "He`s a boy"  stranger," he`s too pretty to be a boy". LOL

  I could go on too far but I am mostly into the edjucation I can get in my evenings here. You are all so wonderful,  Mahalo and Aloha ( Thank you, I love you all)  Ang.

Angie, I didn't start this topic to hurt anyone, rather to discuss and explore our own reactions when we encounter someone whose looks don't line up with their gender.

   Oh, I`m very glad to have this topic to read. This is the reason I held out so long living off Will Power and denial for survival. Even the jokes and bigotries I have notice in the Oh So Acceptant "Punk Seen". Misunderstanding is all around us.  This topic is helping me not hurting me so thankyou. I feel more like after FFS I have attitude, speach, and basically being true and real with myself to rely on. The persentage of people who notice will drop more and more. 
   I want to say thank you all for being here. Love Angie,

Doesn't anybody?  it is tricky to consider something green when it looks like red.  Steph pointed it out quite well.

Its not just using the correct pronoun on someone unpassable who's presenting as female, is easy, its acting exactly the same as one would at an conscious and even unconscious level, as would to a GG that's hard.

And if your able to control your unconscious reactions to an million year old autonomous gendering action, well good for you, but I somehow doubt it...

Quote from: Keira on September 07, 2007, 08:40:52 PM

And if your able to control your unconscious reactions to an million year old autonomous gendering action, well good for you, but I somehow doubt it...

Just imagine, imagine, imagine and anything is possible!  >

tink

Kristi wrote, "we feel better as long as we are better looking than someone else."

Young genetic females can be happier when they feel they "are better looking than someone else."

It's taboo and politically incorrect, but it's human.  It's science.

Teri Anne

P.S. - Before this post, I hadn't realized that "gender" could be a verb, as in "gender" someone.  I suppose, like with beauty, it's an automatic judgement that happens in a flash of a second.  Because I think, like some have expressed, that there is a gender continuum rather than two hard sides, I long for the day when we accept variables, diversity.  A teenage boy with delicate streaks of purple running through his hair?  Sometimes it can be cute.

That we accept the delicate boy has nothing to do with gendering him, or accepting or being his friend, or anything really, your just not going to treat him as a GG.

That's not a bad thing per say, just different. But, it does expose the insecurities of many TS thus the knee jerk reaction.

Quote from: Keira on September 07, 2007, 08:40:52 PM
Its not just using the correct pronoun on someone unpassable who's presenting as female, is easy, its acting exactly the same as one would at an conscious and even unconscious level, as would to a GG that's hard.

What does that even entail though?  When I'm meeting strangers, my interactions with them, male or female are pretty much the same.  It's Hi, my name is, Hi my name is, handshake or wave, then if there's a reason to talk, then we talk.  But I don't like have a set way of treating either gender to begin with, so I'm not sure where any difference would enter in.  Can you explain how you treat men and women differently in a casual passing them on the street kind of way, and possibly explain why?

Quote from: Andrew on September 07, 2007, 10:58:27 AM

Quotenero raises a sensible point, what about those who _choose_ not to pass, yet demand to be treated and refered to as female only.... ?
R

I think it's acceptable not to want to devote your entire life to "passing" (i.e. acting super-feminine/masculine or going completely stealth). And there are some people who just can't pass. If they demand to be referred to as female or male, we're obligated to. Now, they have no right to get angry if we accidentally refer to them with the wrong pronoun, but we have to try.

A good trans manifesto: remember your early days! Remember when you were just starting to pass -- remember when you were fumbling with bathrooms and pronouns and names! We tend to take passing for granted when we pass well. I pass without question but I remember how hard it was at first, and keep that in mind when I'm around unpassables.

passing isnt about being super masculine or feminine. where the hell are you coming from? were not obligated to anything, we can but try, its not a matter of devoting oneself, passing or atleast makeing a damn good effort shows one wants to be taken as female, dispite some minor issues.
if a bearded biker came up to me in a flowery frock, introduced themselves as sharron, and asked to be treated as female, id try, but id have a bloody hard time...
gender is biological, is that what we claim here? its ingrained, if its so ingrained, its hard to bend without serious consious effort.
whats this about fumbling with pronouns and names yourself? huh? i never did i knew i was a girl, it was very easy to use correct ones. plus once im post op and recovered, i dont intend to remember any of this nightmare.
R

Re: Do you find it difficult to think of the unpassables as female? (taboo topic?
I do......but it's still difficult to say that as I could fall into that catagory as well.. 

rubish berleigh

i know i shouldn't but i do.  burn me at the stake now please!

Quote from: Rachael on September 08, 2007, 07:55:28 AM
rubbish berleigh

Why do you say that Rachael ?

Quote from: Katia on September 08, 2007, 08:02:29 AM
i know i shouldn't but i do.  burn me at the stake now please!

I think we all do if we're honest...

I have a problem with all of this. You mean to tell me that if a very masculine looking woman (GG) comes walking up to you, you would call her sir? Or vice-versa and very femine looking guy comes up to you, you would maam him? I can understand at some point where people who are not around trans people a lot or they think they are not around trans people making some mistakes like that. For a trans person to make these mistakes is not right. I have only known one person that falls into the catagory that the subject refers to. She wore a beard and dressed in mens clothes and did not try in anyway to be fem in anyway. I have tried to make my brain see that he was a she. I can't, but I will still refer to her as a she.
The subject was asking do we in this group think that unpassables as female, not the general public. Why was this a taboo topic?
In some circles, I could be one of the unpassables, but I go through my day by day routine and told and referred to as female. I'm not very good looking and if my wife ever decides to leave me I will be alone. That is a fact.
Sheila

A GG would always be regarded as a gg if not by physical appearance, by voice, movement, manner of dress, speech patterns.  Unfortunately for the trans girl, her experiences arent that easy.  She has to overcome a number of obstacles and even so something will be noticeable.  A transsexual woman is said to have a very accurate trans radar.  We can spot each other on a busy street; if not by appearance by manner of speech or movement.  Stealthness doesnt exist if one lives in a heavely transsexual populated area like London.

Quote from: Sheila on September 08, 2007, 09:33:40 PM
I have a problem with all of this. You mean to tell me that if a very masculine looking woman (GG) comes walking up to you, you would call her sir? Or vice-versa and very femine looking guy comes up to you, you would maam him? I can understand at some point where people who are not around trans people a lot or they think they are not around trans people making some mistakes like that. For a trans person to make these mistakes is not right. I have only known one person that falls into the catagory that the subject refers to. She wore a beard and dressed in mens clothes and did not try in anyway to be fem in anyway. I have tried to make my brain see that he was a she. I can't, but I will still refer to her as a she.

That's the point. I would do my best to refer to the proper pronouns, but I'd probably have to keep reminding myself that she's a woman.
That's what people are saying on this thread. I don't imagine any of us are rude enough to deliberately treat an unpassable man or woman as the wrong gender.

Please God, let this thread die.


Amen


Now I can go to bed happy